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  1. #451
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    I'd comment here that in Ottawa, we had 15k to the final match, and it *felt* like I could have been at BMO field. The supporters have their traditions now (thanks in part to transferees from the Fury) and some of the spectators come to see what they will display next as much as the product on the field. It reminds me a lot of MLS 1.0. That said, they were only averaging 4.5k per match during the season and that was considered pretty good for the CanPL. I think the best crowds/atmospheres in the league are Halifax, Ottawa, Calgary, and Hamilton. The others have made some mis-steps, but they're learning. The CSB agreement that has handcuffed the National team programs gave them a 10-year window to get profitable. So 2029 will be the year we'll know if they've succeeded or failed, although the writing may be on the wall earlier than than.

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    ^I saw a Fury game in Ottawa 5 years ago. Really enjoyed the atmosphere.

    I agree with jloome. I would say we have an easier road than the US does, because we don’t have bigtime college sports. That consumes a lot of dollars/oxygen in the US ecosystem. We instead over rotate on hockey, but I truly believe hockey is a “short” (in the language of the stock market). It will always be big, number 1, but right now, you get more Allan Cup and Spengler Cup games on TV than soccer. I believe that can and will change.

    I don’t understand the CPL because - it makes no sense. There are levels of minor league. I honestly feel,like it was constructed solely for the purpose of draining the CSA. (I too am prepared to lose 3M a year in any venture the CSA designates, so that I can get a hold of their sponsorship and TV dollars.) Bigger cities like Ottawa and Edmonton should probably have stayed with USL.
    Last edited by ensco; 03-13-2023 at 12:09 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Bigger cities like Ottawa and Edmonton should probably have stayed with USL.
    They had no choice. CSA and CONCACAF wouldn't sanction their participation in the USL because CPL existed. Same happened for KW United in USL2 when League1 Ontario was founded. CSA said go to League1 Ontario or fold, they folded (FC London chose to go to L1O)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydermike View Post
    They had no choice. CSA and CONCACAF wouldn't sanction their participation in the USL because CPL existed. Same happened for KW United in USL2 when League1 Ontario was founded. CSA said go to League1 Ontario or fold, they folded (FC London chose to go to L1O)
    Which was, in itself, a self-serving mechanism by the CSA funnel everyone towards CSB.

    I appreciate the intent but even the basic contract terms made public are horrendous and smack of greasy palms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    I'd comment here that in Ottawa, we had 15k to the final match, and it *felt* like I could have been at BMO field. The supporters have their traditions now (thanks in part to transferees from the Fury) and some of the spectators come to see what they will display next as much as the product on the field. It reminds me a lot of MLS 1.0. That said, they were only averaging 4.5k per match during the season and that was considered pretty good for the CanPL. I think the best crowds/atmospheres in the league are Halifax, Ottawa, Calgary, and Hamilton. The others have made some mis-steps, but they're learning. The CSB agreement that has handcuffed the National team programs gave them a 10-year window to get profitable. So 2029 will be the year we'll know if they've succeeded or failed, although the writing may be on the wall earlier than than.
    I have been to a few York United games and typically crowds are in the 2,000 to 3,000 range. I will continue to go again this year (nice to see a game on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon), but the team hasn't resonated with the community. I have heard rumors that the club is bleeding red ink, but this is unconfirmed. Unless things change dramatically I don't see the league surviving past 2029.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Which was, in itself, a self-serving mechanism by the CSA funnel everyone towards CSB.

    I appreciate the intent but even the basic contract terms made public are horrendous and smack of greasy palms.
    Yup. This is right at the core of the CSB scandal.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    I am currently warching a Serie C game. Crotone v Catanzano, two of the better teams in the league. (Don't ask me why.)

    I am stunned by the caliber of play. It is outstanding.

    Either of these teams would beat TFC, I am sure of it.

    Just in case you are wondering what might be going on in Fede's mind these days.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^I saw a Fury game in Ottawa 5 years ago. Really enjoyed the atmosphere.

    I agree with jloome. I would say we have an easier road than the US does, because we don’t have bigtime college sports. That consumes a lot of dollars/oxygen in the US ecosystem. We instead over rotate on hockey, but I truly believe hockey is a “short” (in the language of the stock market). It will always be big, number 1, but right now, you get more Allan Cup and Spengler Cup games on TV than soccer. I believe that can and will change.

    I don’t understand the CPL because - it makes no sense. There are levels of minor league. I honestly feel,like it was constructed solely for the purpose of draining the CSA. (I too am prepared to lose 3M a year in any venture the CSA designates, so that I can get a hold of their sponsorship and TV dollars.) Bigger cities like Ottawa and Edmonton should probably have stayed with USL.
    Canada will be taking in 400,000 to 500,000 immigrants this year and in all likelihood at least that much each year going forward. Immigrants are coming from Asia, Africa and increasingly Latin America. Immigration, demographics, time and the Neanderthals that run hockey lead me to believe that Soccer and basketball will eventually both overtake hockey as the number one spectator sport in Canada. Look at the ethnic make-up of who plays hockey vs. the make-up of the country. Is there a sport less representative of the community in terms of participation than hockey? It may not happen in our lifetime but I believe it's only a matter of time before soccer surpasses hockey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Which was, in itself, a self-serving mechanism by the CSA funnel everyone towards CSB.

    I appreciate the intent but even the basic contract terms made public are horrendous and smack of greasy palms.
    It will would take decades of selfless work to create sustainable cash flows for a lower league in this country to match what the CHL is - there is no indication that the CSA or the CSB are interested in that selfless work.

    The CSA is like this because...well..the CSA has always been a group of jumped up rotary club presidents with no long term concept of what it takes to build something (Trudeau senior knew what he was talking about).

    The CSB is run by CFL people - their whole business model is "keeping TSN happy so the money keeps flowing".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Speaking of CCL, Austin FC got slaughtered by Club Violet.
    And couldn't get it done at home - Violette had only 14 players able to get to Austin due to Visa restrictions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    And couldn't get it done at home - Violette had only 14 players able to get to Austin due to Visa restrictions.
    Managed to watch the last 35mins (excluding stoppage time) and those guys played the match of their lives.
    Cinderella run continues for Violette. Even crazier when you consider that they haven't played for 10 months up until the CCL.

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1SVu5dJ5eQ

    Interview with Shaffelburg. Basically felt like he didn't see the light at the end of the tunnel with TFC, so they worked together to find him a spot where he could play. I know some may not agree with me on this, but this is one thing that I've really appreciated out of Bob. If he see's that a player isn't going to get as much playing time as they need at the stage they're at in their career he moves them. Although it may suck on one end, on the otherside, Shaffelburg get's the chance to play regular minutes, develop and hopefully grow into an even better player that can support the national team. The kid deserves it and TFC didnt' stand in his way.

  13. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I am currently warching a Serie C game. Crotone v Catanzano, two of the better teams in the league. (Don't ask me why.) I am stunned by the caliber of play. It is outstanding. Either of these teams would beat TFC, I am sure of it. Just in case you are wondering what might be going on in Fede's mind these days.
    I will say, even I have never watched a full SerieC match; ever. Highlight clips and match extended recaps/breakdowns, of course yes. My only added caution to your point, IMO, average individual talent/brilliance per say in that tier may be/should be less then in MLS. However, and I hope you get my gist, even though it may sound counterintuitive, their collective understanding, of tactics, how to play, move, shape, discipline, rhythm... how they have been schooled in those basic abilities and fundamentals, everyday, is what would afford them any advantage. I believe the concept being... the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. With that idea, I would suggest there are a number of second or third tier European/SA league clubs that may give most MLS teams a solid go.
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 03-15-2023 at 01:56 AM.

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    Anyone knows whats going on with Jimenez?

    He hasn't started or even been on the bench for FC Dallas. Injured?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorDingDong View Post
    Anyone knows whats going on with Jimenez?

    He hasn't started or even been on the bench for FC Dallas. Injured?
    Jimenez had visa issues that have prevented him from inclusion thus far.

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    So I just realized that MLS isnt going on international break for the upcoming Concacaf NAtions League.

    Our midfield with lack of depth could get further depleted if Kaye and Osorio get called up. At least with Laryea, we have some depth with Franklin and Gutierrez (Even though he's LB not RB), assuming Petretta is not injured.

    Might see the debut of Tomas Romero, in place of the reason we managed a tie against Atlanta (AKA Sean Johnson)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorDingDong View Post
    Anyone knows whats going on with Jimenez?

    He hasn't started or even been on the bench for FC Dallas. Injured?
    As of a few days ago the clusterfuck that is the US still had not approved visas for either Jiminez or Achara and both are stuck in Toronto. Not even allowed to train with their new teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    As of a few days ago the clusterfuck that is the US still had not approved visas for either Jiminez or Achara and both are stuck in Toronto. Not even allowed to train with their new teams.
    Good lord, even Achara? He was moved like 3 months ago now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    As of a few days ago the clusterfuck that is the US still had not approved visas for either Jiminez or Achara and both are stuck in Toronto. Not even allowed to train with their new teams.
    That almost sounds to me like someone fucked up the applications. And now it’s taking time to fix.

    Wonder if such things are handled by individual clubs or the league office.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I am currently warching a Serie C game. Crotone v Catanzano, two of the better teams in the league. (Don't ask me why.)

    I am stunned by the caliber of play. It is outstanding.

    Either of these teams would beat TFC, I am sure of it.
    Maybe. I watch a lot of English National League, their lowest league, and most games appear so organized that THEY'D beat the average MSL team, as do Scottish league games.

    But what I'm actually seeing is far more tactical rigidity.

    MLS looks like unorganized chaos, but it's really not. James Sands recently returned to NYFC from rangers and he talked about this, as did Cristian Ramirez last year.

    The tactical approach is entirely different, with MLS teams often having so much movement, and so much instruction, that it looks like chaos. When they went to the SPL, the first thing they both realized is that they limit player movement and responsibility to a much greater degree.

    They're far more conservative in their approach, and more patient about breaking down defenses with short passing instead of trying to create transitional imbalances.

    The net result is that ANY organized Euro football that you compare MLS to looks more organized. Seriously, go watch Wrexham play Maidenhead or whomever they're playing next week. It's hard not to watch it and think both teams could destroy us.

    But... they're both playing the same type of game at the same speed. And that speed is slower than MLS, by quite a bit.

    I'm not saying that as true of Serie C, but ask yourself which serie c players, despite their terrible pay, have ever made it in MLS, where the pay is substantially higher. If the play were that much higher then, given the number of Italians with dual nationalities, we would see many more of them coming over.

    The same is true of the English lower leagues.

    English League Two football looks, compared to MLS, like Serie C football. Very organized, very technical. Andy Welsh was a prolific, productive winger in League Two. In MLS, he was substandard in every respect.

    I'm not saying, also, that MLS's way is better. I actually find the MLS hybrid American/South American/English approach to be visually messy. But in terms of the spectacular, there's just way more of it here than in lower leagues there.

    I think that, across the board, the differences in levels of football are finer than we all think most of the time. There are plenty of guys in MLS who could be playing a higher level; there are plenty of guys at a higher level, like the EPL, who could not survive outside that 'style' of disciplined football and would do badly over here.

    EDIT: With how things have gone for us with BB, for Marsch at Leeds, with Armas here, I'm starting to think the fluidity and over-instruction is a problem for any MLS team that doesn't have serious wheels.
    Last edited by jloome; 03-15-2023 at 10:02 AM.

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    My thoughts on this stuff is always 'money talks'. Comparing standards across continents is difficult, but when talking about leagues where the elite players earn less than bit part players here, I just flat out don't believe they are better players. If they were, they could earn 5-20 times their salary here being middling to elite players here. So, 1, the players would be lining up to move here and 2 our GMs would be raiding the leagues daily for low cap hit, high impact players

    No accountant would earn 1/10th of their salary to live in Scotland instead of earning 10 times their salary for the same work to live in New York. The same is true in football, if not even more so given the very small window that exists to make money

    There may be ways they are better - I can buy general tactical IQ being higher from an XI that grew up in a place obsessed with the game vs players who grew up here, they'd have more of an intuitive understanding of certain fundamentals (I see this exact thing at rec league. I play with Canadians who are better athletes and overall better players than immigrants on the team, but the immigrants are miles ahead on certain things like pass selection, movement, positioning etc). But better overall? I struggle to buy why they'd agree to earn a pittance of what they could earn if that was true. It's not like we're some backwater with a lower standard of living
    Last edited by JoesphNdo; 03-15-2023 at 10:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    My thoughts on this stuff is always 'money talks'. Comparing standards across continents is difficult, but when talking about leagues where the elite players earn less than bit part players here, I just flat out don't believe they are better players. If they were, they could earn 5-20 times their salary here being middling to elite players here. So, 1, the players would be lining up to move here and 2 our GMs would be raiding the leagues daily for low cap hit, high impact players

    No accountant would earn 1/10th of their salary to live in Scotland instead of earning 10 times their salary for the same work to live in New York. The same is true in football, if not even more so given the very small window that exists to make money

    There may be ways they are better - I can buy general tactical IQ being higher from an XI that grew up in a place obsessed with the game vs players who grew up here, they'd have more of an intuitive understanding of certain fundamentals (I see this exact thing at rec league. I play with Canadians who are better athletes and overall better players than immigrants on the team, but the immigrants are miles ahead on certain things like pass selection, movement, positioning etc). But better overall? I struggle to buy why they'd agree to earn a pittance of what they could earn if that was true. It's not like we're some backwater with a lower standard of living
    Can't speak for other leagues, but players in the Croatian league like at dinamo zagreb in particular are miles better than anyone we have here not including the Italians.

    You saw it in the World Cup as well as there were 5 current Croatian league players who played big roles in Croatia getting to third. The youngsters are waiting their big breaks to go to make a big move to Europe...some of the older ones make pretty good coin because the club needs to still get into the CL and make a huge pay day...but as you saw in the Croatia-Canada game, the gulf in technical ability was huge.

    I'd love Petkovic up front for us, would be great with the Italians..but we don't scout Croatia for some bizaree reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    Can't speak for other leagues, but players in the Croatian league like at dinamo zagreb in particular are miles better than anyone we have here not including the Italians.

    You saw it in the World Cup as well as there were 5 current Croatian league players who played big roles in Croatia getting to third. The youngsters are waiting their big breaks to go to make a big move to Europe...some of the older ones make pretty good coin because the club needs to still get into the CL and make a huge pay day...but as you saw in the Croatia-Canada game, the gulf in technical ability was huge.

    I'd love Petkovic up front for us, would be great with the Italians..but we don't scout Croatia for some bizaree reason.
    My question would be, and remains, what's the average salary for an average player in the Croatian league? Not talking young starlet, I get the idea they want to stay in Europe and so could be ahead of the equivalent here, or even an old vet returning home - I'm talking on Osorio equivalent (A solid, reliable, never gonna win an MVP but will play a bunch of games and the idea of moving to a higher level has long since passed realistically), how much do they earn in Croatia? And if way, way, way less than here (Which I suspect it is, but I've no idea and absolutely happy for you to tell me I'm off as you know this more than I do) then why aren't they here earning Osorio money? Any argument for me to buy needs to have a plausible explanation for that
    Last edited by JoesphNdo; 03-15-2023 at 10:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    My question would be, and remains, what's the average salary for an average player in the Croatian league? Not talking young starlet, I get the idea they want to stay in Europe and so could be ahead of the equivalent here, or even an old vet returning home - I'm talking on Osorio equivalent (A solid, reliable, never gonna win an MVP but will play a bunch of games and the idea of moving to a higher level has long since passed realistically), how much do they earn in Croatia? And if way, way, way less than here (Which I suspect it is, but I've no idea and absolutely happy for you to tell me I'm off as you know this more than I do) then why aren't they here earning Osorio money? Any argument for me to buy needs to have a plausible explanation for that
    On average I would say anywhere from 300-600k euros for the top 3 clubs. Smaller clubs 100-400k Only tops players get 1 million euros or so. Usually when they sell a player the player gets a cut of the transfer fee also.
    Based on similar talent Osorio would prob fall in the 400-500k euro range. He's definitely overpaid at TFC even if I like him. Croatian players have a desire to stay in Cro if payed decent or move to another European league in order to stay on national team radar.

    Damir Kreilach of RSL, Dario Zuparic of Portland and Stipe Biuk of LAFC are only Croatian players in league that I can think of. I don't know what their salaries are here.

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    One thing a colleague of mine who has played the game at a provincial women's level indicated after that WC match is that Croatia was just more organized - we don't do that over here, either at the pro or the development level.

    Mostly because of what jloome is talking about - we use speed & movement way more than in Europe. Its always been an apples to oranges comparison.

    I too enjoy the odd National / League 2 match. One thing I have constantly heard though that is the difference between top players & League 2 is ball control skills within that rigidity. You think League 2 people are technically better then MLS - then you see how quickly MLS people move the ball. By and large, MLS players that succeed have the ball control skills of a lower level Championship player. So when we get a guy like Berna, who wasn't burning up Serie A by any means, he makes the league look less technically gifted. But when we see a guy from Rotheram or Lincoln or Grimsby.... or TFC2 for that matter...who was doing well at that level, they have issues adjusting to MLS because they can't compete on the ball control skill level. BB actually talked about this earlier this season when it comes to the "young guys who need to take a step up".

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    One thing a colleague of mine who has played the game at a provincial women's level indicated after that WC match is that Croatia was just more organized - we don't do that over here, either at the pro or the development level.

    Mostly because of what jloome is talking about - we use speed & movement way more than in Europe. Its always been an apples to oranges comparison.

    I too enjoy the odd National / League 2 match. One thing I have constantly heard though that is the difference between top players & League 2 is ball control skills within that rigidity. You think League 2 people are technically better then MLS - then you see how quickly MLS people move the ball. By and large, MLS players that succeed have the ball control skills of a lower level Championship player. So when we get a guy like Berna, who wasn't burning up Serie A by any means, he makes the league look less technically gifted. But when we see a guy from Rotheram or Lincoln or Grimsby.... or TFC2 for that matter...who was doing well at that level, they have issues adjusting to MLS because they can't compete on the ball control skill level. BB actually talked about this earlier this season when it comes to the "young guys who need to take a step up".

    A big part of the problem here is youth development. In Croatia, its all about on the ball ability and technical aspects focussed on only. A guy like Luka Modric would have been discarded here at 11 for being "too small" or not "athletic" enough. Here the coaches look for the biggest and fastest and those are the ones that progress. I think the US has the same problem.

    And as it relates to BB specifically now, he hasn't shown me any ability to develop young players whatsoever. And TFC as a club also...how do we have guys from the Toronto area do well for other clubs, literally from our own backyard, but we can't spot them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    And as it relates to BB specifically now, he hasn't shown me any ability to develop young players whatsoever. And TFC as a club also...how do we have guys from the Toronto area do well for other clubs, literally from our own backyard, but we can't spot them?
    He was known for this prior to coming here when he was abroad but as for our region, it's not like we have control over these kids. They choose where to go and most chose Sigma or the US College route. Team academies don't have the shine like they do in Europe. No big money carrot at the end for most.

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    I'd say its early days on how BB deals with youth.

    I think Kerr showed a lot of promise on Saturday - he fought for every long ball going his way, made himself available & ran the channels (described his goal as training ground prep sort of work). But youth work is about doing that day in and day out & growing from there - BB noted that was the difference between those let go after last year & those kept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    My thoughts on this stuff is always 'money talks'. Comparing standards across continents is difficult, but when talking about leagues where the elite players earn less than bit part players here, I just flat out don't believe they are better players. If they were, they could earn 5-20 times their salary here being middling to elite players here. So, 1, the players would be lining up to move here and 2 our GMs would be raiding the leagues daily for low cap hit, high impact players

    No accountant would earn 1/10th of their salary to live in Scotland instead of earning 10 times their salary for the same work to live in New York. The same is true in football, if not even more so given the very small window that exists to make money

    There may be ways they are better - I can buy general tactical IQ being higher from an XI that grew up in a place obsessed with the game vs players who grew up here, they'd have more of an intuitive understanding of certain fundamentals (I see this exact thing at rec league. I play with Canadians who are better athletes and overall better players than immigrants on the team, but the immigrants are miles ahead on certain things like pass selection, movement, positioning etc). But better overall? I struggle to buy why they'd agree to earn a pittance of what they could earn if that was true. It's not like we're some backwater with a lower standard of living
    So… there's no arguing it, this has to be true.

    I think there are other factors though. The market is not efficient though.

    One - it is extremely difficult to get players released in some countries, because of corrupt arrangements around how players rights are held.

    Two - few international transfers “work”, which just discourages buyers. Four Four Two did a piece a few years back saying that 80% of cross border signings in Europe were “failures” (they had some sort of definition of that).
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Maybe. I watch a lot of English National League, their lowest league, and most games appear so organized that THEY'D beat the average MSL team, as do Scottish league games.

    But what I'm actually seeing is far more tactical rigidity.

    MLS looks like unorganized chaos, but it's really not. James Sands recently returned to NYFC from rangers and he talked about this, as did Cristian Ramirez last year.

    The tactical approach is entirely different, with MLS teams often having so much movement, and so much instruction, that it looks like chaos. When they went to the SPL, the first thing they both realized is that they limit player movement and responsibility to a much greater degree.

    They're far more conservative in their approach, and more patient about breaking down defenses with short passing instead of trying to create transitional imbalances.

    The net result is that ANY organized Euro football that you compare MLS to looks more organized. Seriously, go watch Wrexham play Maidenhead or whomever they're playing next week. It's hard not to watch it and think both teams could destroy us.

    But... they're both playing the same type of game at the same speed. And that speed is slower than MLS, by quite a bit.

    I'm not saying that as true of Serie C, but ask yourself which serie c players, despite their terrible pay, have ever made it in MLS, where the pay is substantially higher. If the play were that much higher then, given the number of Italians with dual nationalities, we would see many more of them coming over.

    The same is true of the English lower leagues.

    English League Two football looks, compared to MLS, like Serie C football. Very organized, very technical. Andy Welsh was a prolific, productive winger in League Two. In MLS, he was substandard in every respect.

    I'm not saying, also, that MLS's way is better. I actually find the MLS hybrid American/South American/English approach to be visually messy. But in terms of the spectacular, there's just way more of it here than in lower leagues there.

    I think that, across the board, the differences in levels of football are finer than we all think most of the time. There are plenty of guys in MLS who could be playing a higher level; there are plenty of guys at a higher level, like the EPL, who could not survive outside that 'style' of disciplined football and would do badly over here.

    EDIT: With how things have gone for us with BB, for Marsch at Leeds, with Armas here, I'm starting to think the fluidity and over-instruction is a problem for any MLS team that doesn't have serious wheels.
    I was waiting for you to show up here- I know nobody who watches lower leagues like you do.

    I accept your well argued point but, having thought a bit about it, the problem may be that soccer is a weak link sport. You are only as good as your worst player. (in contrast to basketball - you are only as good as your best player)

    Lower league clubs have great balance, nobody drives a Lambourghini. You can implement a team concept more readily. Lower risk of locker room mayhem.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

 

 

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