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  1. #1441
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Moves happen every World Cup. It’s still a showcase.

    I work in a heavily data driven business currently and the nature of it means we have more salient data points than a sports team could ever dream of. And we STILL make calls based on things beyond the numbers and it’s widely accepted in our industry this is best practice. The reason being, we try as hard as we can to quantify as much as we can but what is “unexplained” by the numbers is large enough where other factors need to be taken into consideration.

    I doubt football, which is still has a lot of blue-collar types in management and is very early stage in terms of analytics and understanding is any more evolved.
    i've heard a scout explain this on a podcast, i'm not just guessing. this is how the industry operates at the top level (so you're right, a lot of teams are still recruiting based on other stuff, but the teams that would be real steps up for our guys would all have deep analytics).

    that being said i could see richie being on a list of potential options for a bunch of teams and yesterday's performance pushing him up higher.
    Last edited by leedsandTFC; 11-24-2022 at 11:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    i've heard a scout explain this on a podcast, i'm not just guessing. this is how the industry operates at the top level (so you're right, a lot of teams are still recruiting based on other stuff, but the teams that would be real steps up for our guys would all have deep analytics).

    that being said i could see richie being on a list of potential options for a bunch of teams and yesterday's performance pushing him up higher.
    One scoutís view is not the gospel. I wonder if you invited that personís boss into the room or 5 of his peers and started peeling back the details of analytics, what theyíd say. My large bet would be, what at face value is being portrayed as straightforward data driven decisions are riddled with nuances, unexplained phenomena , and lack of consensus across various quarters. For that reason itís a factor that plays into decision making but not the factor, singularly in isolation.

    With Laryea, my simple thought is this: the change in his value to make him unaffordable to TFC is a rounding error to most teams world wide and not a huge difference in how he would be perceived currently. Wouldnít take much to make it happen and being in the spotlight at WC would be all it takes to find a few marginal buyers.

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    Nottingham Forest is going to be relegated and will likely have to sell a number of players they brought in for the Premier League campaign, as Norwich did last year. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up wanting to keep Laryea. I can't see either Neco Williams or Serge Aurier staying on a Championship side so that opens that position specifically. I think Cooper is on thin ice and may not make it to the end of the season, so he may not be an issue. As someone else said, it may all depend on what the loan agreement is. Do sales clauses have to be agreed by both parties after the loan?
    Last edited by Canary10; 11-24-2022 at 12:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Nottingham Forest is going to be relegated and will likely have to sell a number of players they brought in for the Premier League campaign, as Norwich did last year. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up wanting to keep Laryea. I can't see either Neco Williams or Serge Aurier staying on a Championship side so that opens that position specifically. I think Cooper is on thin ice and may not make it to the end of the season, so he may not be an issue. As someone else said, it may all depend on what the loan agreement is. Do sales clauses have to be agreed by both parties after the loan?
    Thatís more than fair. I could see him tap-out and request transfer in the face of instability though. Canít be overly enthusiastic about his experience so far.

    MLS used to require purchase options on all loan deals but now IIRC the options can either be set artificially high so itís never a real possibility or donít have to exist at all. Iím sure thereís an example out there somewhere but I do recall this coming up on a few another deals or two.

  5. #1445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Nottingham Forest is going to be relegated and will likely have to sell a number of players they brought in for the Premier League campaign, as Norwich did last year. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up wanting to keep Laryea. I can't see either Neco Williams or Serge Aurier staying on a Championship side so that opens that position specifically. I think Cooper is on thin ice and may not make it to the end of the season, so he may not be an issue. As someone else said, it may all depend on what the loan agreement is. Do sales clauses have to be agreed by both parties after the loan?
    Cooper seems to have scapegoated a couple of their front office guys for massive misspend, which is why he isn't gone already. But everyone there is on thin ice.

    Last year, it made sense for him to not use their foreign signings as he had minimal window to turn around a bottom-end team, didn't know any of them, and multiple signees might've need time to fit in, to speaking English all the time, to living in England. If you notice, as Los S and I were discussing a few months ago, nearly everyone who went out on loan was a foreign player signed without Cooper's input while Chris Hughton was still there.

    He clearly doesn't rate --or recognize enough difference in -- Laryea defensively.

    If he was one of the names that was in the debates about "Fault" for their current situation -- as in Cooper arguing more misspending this year was over his head, as it was last year -- then this won't help Cooper's cause in the front office. They may even be wondering if he's just inflexible about foreign players.

    If he stays, Cooper will probably be gone anyway, as it'll be because they're relegated. If he's sold, it'll either be to us for more than we got for him, or to a bigger team who recognizes he can step up.

    There is a LONG history of players being signed primarily off their WC appearance. Yes, data analytics are much more part of the argument now, but nowhere near the only factor and at some clubs, actively derided still, even though they're used regularly for tactical analysis.

    If he has one more showing like that, against Croatia, he will be priced out of our reach by the simple fact that his club team is in the Premier League.

    And Hull already want him, have inquired twice prior to the World Cup.
    Last edited by jloome; 11-24-2022 at 01:48 PM.

  6. #1446
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    One scout’s view is not the gospel. I wonder if you invited that person’s boss into the room or 5 of his peers and started peeling back the details of analytics, what they’d say. My large bet would be, what at face value is being portrayed as straightforward data driven decisions are riddled with nuances, unexplained phenomena , and lack of consensus across various quarters. For that reason it’s a factor that plays into decision making but not the factor, singularly in isolation.

    With Laryea, my simple thought is this: the change in his value to make him unaffordable to TFC is a rounding error to most teams world wide and not a huge difference in how he would be perceived currently. Wouldn’t take much to make it happen and being in the spotlight at WC would be all it takes to find a few marginal buyers.
    no team is paying more than a couple mill for a 28 year old that has only ever performed in MLS. it's already a bit of a risk, especially after he didn't get much time at forest, and he's only got 2-3 years in his prime left.

    richie did have other offers in belgium/ england when he came back. the question is if he wants to try again in the championship or play the rest of his career here.

    i'd imagine the sponsorships and endorsement $$ that will be on offer in canada should he choose to stay will be substantial.
    Last edited by leedsandTFC; 11-24-2022 at 01:56 PM.

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    anyways, anyone have any updates on hedges/ vasquez?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    no team is paying more than a couple mill for a 28 year old that has only ever performed in MLS. it's already a bit of a risk, especially after he didn't get much time at forest, and he's only got 2-3 years in his prime left.

    richie did have other offers in belgium/ england when he came back. the question is if he wants to try again in the championship or play the rest of his career here.

    i'd imagine the sponsorships and endorsement $$ that will be on offer in canada should he choose to stay will be substantial.
    It's crazy to me that Orlando just walked away from Laryea. They should feel like idiots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    no team is paying more than a couple mill for a 28 year old that has only ever performed in MLS. it's already a bit of a risk, especially after he didn't get much time at forest, and he's only got 2-3 years in his prime left.

    richie did have other offers in belgium/ england when he came back. the question is if he wants to try again in the championship or play the rest of his career here.

    i'd imagine the sponsorships and endorsement $$ that will be on offer in canada should he choose to stay will be substantial.
    Agreed itís not more than a few million but thatís entirely the point. A few million is more than TFC realistically would be willing or able to spend on this transfer and itís also a minuscule amount to a lot of potential clubs. Nobody is getting fired if he doesnít work out at Forrest and nobody will with the next club either. Itís a low-risk moderate reward deal certain clubs will be interested in.

    I doubt sponsorships would carry the day here in any meaningful way. Canadian market not very lucrative other than to a few highly recognizable athletes. Laryea is also going to be behind a number of different guys when considering sponsorship opportunities for interested parties who canít afford or wonít be able to ink Davies.

    Beyond that look at the current cycleÖ we have one player outside of Davies who is represented as his own brand in an advertising as opposed to a generic member of the national team. And he plays in Turkey and is selling Osmowís sandwiches.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 11-24-2022 at 02:26 PM.

  10. #1450
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Agreed it’s not more than a few million but that’s entirely the point. A few million is more than TFC realistically would be willing or able to spend on this transfer and it’s also a minuscule amount to a lot of potential clubs. Nobody is getting fired if he doesn’t work out at Forrest and nobody will with the next club either. It’s a low-risk moderate reward deal certain clubs will be interested in.

    I doubt sponsorships would carry the day here in any meaningful way. Canadian market not very lucrative other than to a few highly recognizable athletes. Laryea is also going to be behind a number of different guys when considering sponsorship opportunities for interested parties who can’t afford or won’t be able to ink Davies.

    Beyond that look at the current cycle… we have one player outside of Davies who is represented as his own brand in an advertising as opposed to a generic member of the national team. And he plays in Turkey and is selling Osmow’s sandwiches.
    Belgium not Turkey.

  11. #1451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Belgium not Turkey.
    Given how often he sees the field in Belgium, it may still be accurate, haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Agreed it’s not more than a few million but that’s entirely the point. A few million is more than TFC realistically would be willing or able to spend on this transfer and it’s also a minuscule amount to a lot of potential clubs. Nobody is getting fired if he doesn’t work out at Forrest and nobody will with the next club either. It’s a low-risk moderate reward deal certain clubs will be interested in.

    I doubt sponsorships would carry the day here in any meaningful way. Canadian market not very lucrative other than to a few highly recognizable athletes. Laryea is also going to be behind a number of different guys when considering sponsorship opportunities for interested parties who can’t afford or won’t be able to ink Davies.

    Beyond that look at the current cycle… we have one player outside of Davies who is represented as his own brand in an advertising as opposed to a generic member of the national team. And he plays in Turkey and is selling Osmow’s sandwiches.
    Before the WC, yes.

    Likely a different story post wc. All these guys profiles are being raised a ton

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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    no team is paying more than a couple mill for a 28 year old that has only ever performed in MLS.
    So, by this argument it's either the league, the age or the money, or combination thereof?

    Wales' striker Kieffer Moore was playing as a central defender in League Two three years ago, at age 27.

    He was given a chance at striker, and now he's starting for Bournemouth in the Premier League at 30.

    So age and quality of league aren't exclusionary factors to be "discovered" as better than initial appearances.

    If we accept that, it comes down to money.

    Players are missed sometime. If they see the performance, they don't give a shit about two mil for a 28 year old. That's an absolute bargain to any team in the Premier League OR Championship.

    Two million... hell, anything under 5 Million really, is absolute chickenfeed to a Premier League club these days.

    One more good game, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got that sort of offer.

    Mind you, if you go by Nottingham newspaper reader comments, most Forest fans seem to want him back now to play in the Premier League:

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/sport...ansfer-7856979

    The comments at the end support that contention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    So, by this argument it's either the league, the age or the money, or combination thereof?

    Wales' striker Kieffer Moore was playing as a central defender in League Two three years ago, at age 27.

    He was given a chance at striker, and now he's starting for Bournemouth in the Premier League at 30.

    So age and quality of league aren't exclusionary factors to be "discovered" as better than initial appearances.

    If we accept that, it comes down to money.

    Players are missed sometime. If they see the performance, they don't give a shit about two mil for a 28 year old. That's an absolute bargain to any team in the Premier League OR Championship.

    Two million... hell, anything under 5 Million really, is absolute chickenfeed to a Premier League club these days.

    One more good game, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got that sort of offer.

    Mind you, if you go by Nottingham newspaper reader comments, most Forest fans seem to want him back now to play in the Premier League:

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/sport...ansfer-7856979

    The comments at the end support that contention.
    This is pretty cool to read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    So, by this argument it's either the league, the age or the money, or combination thereof?

    Wales' striker Kieffer Moore was playing as a central defender in League Two three years ago, at age 27.

    He was given a chance at striker, and now he's starting for Bournemouth in the Premier League at 30.

    So age and quality of league aren't exclusionary factors to be "discovered" as better than initial appearances.


    If we accept that, it comes down to money.

    Players are missed sometime. If they see the performance, they don't give a shit about two mil for a 28 year old. That's an absolute bargain to any team in the Premier League OR Championship.

    Two million... hell, anything under 5 Million really, is absolute chickenfeed to a Premier League club these days.

    One more good game, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got that sort of offer.

    Mind you, if you go by Nottingham newspaper reader comments, most Forest fans seem to want him back now to play in the Premier League:

    https://www.nottinghampost.com/sport...ansfer-7856979

    The comments at the end support that contention.
    kieffer more at age 27 was playing as a striker in the championship, i have no idea where you got this information from lol.

    he transferred 3 times as a competent striker in the championship since this date for a combined 7.75 M pounds. he's playing in the prem now **after leading his team to promotion**, they din't buy him on the cheap.

    the reason it almost certainly won't happen is **because** 5 million (or 1-2 million, which would be the likely fee) is chicken feed to these teams.

    they have enough money to go out and buy proven players from france, spain, germany, portugal so they don't need to try to penny pinch.

    as for forest, they have 100 M + tied up in fullbacks, there's almost no chance they decide to give him a go after buying aurier, reinaldo, etc, especially as the manager they gave a long term contract to doesnt rate him.

    remember every WC there are dozens of players in lesser leagues that have great tournaments, yet continue to play in the J league, A league, championship, MLS.

    there will be interest in him, the interest that existed from england and belgium before the tournament. it'll be about whether he wants to have another go in europe (and potentially have another forest situation and spend another 6 months sitting on the bench), or keep playing here.

  16. #1456
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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    kieffer more at age 27 was playing as a striker in the championship, i have no idea where you got this information from lol.

    he transferred 3 times as a competent striker in the championship since this date for a combined 7.75 M pounds. he's playing in the prem now **after leading his team to promotion**, they din't buy him on the cheap.

    the reason it almost certainly won't happen is **because** 5 million (or 1-2 million, which would be the likely fee) is chicken feed to these teams.

    they have enough money to go out and buy proven players from france, spain, germany, portugal so they don't need to try to penny pinch.

    as for forest, they have 100 M + tied up in fullbacks, there's almost no chance they decide to give him a go after buying aurier, reinaldo, etc, especially as the manager they gave a long term contract to doesnt rate him.

    remember every WC there are dozens of players in lesser leagues that have great tournaments, yet continue to play in the J league, A league, championship, MLS.

    there will be interest in him, the interest that existed from england and belgium before the tournament. it'll be about whether he wants to have another go in europe (and potentially have another forest situation and spend another 6 months sitting on the bench), or keep playing here.
    My apologies, it was at 23, not 27. The last time he played centre half was 11 games in 2016, at Viking.

    The larger point stands, players are signed on cup reputation all the time. They don't always work out. Robson-Kanu and James Rodrigues would be two good examples. But they do get signed for it.

    I agree, it's doubtful at Forest. But stranger things have happened after managers get sacked.

    <<they have enough money to go out and buy proven players from france, spain, germany, portugal so they don't need to try to penny pinch.>>

    Ehhh... I don't think they'll ignore a bargain if they think they can get it.
    Last edited by jloome; 11-24-2022 at 10:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    Before the WC, yes.

    Likely a different story post wc. All these guys profiles are being raised a ton
    Let me give you two reference points. And without getting too snarky Iíll let you know Iíve seen a small sample of whatís behind the curtain in this area. Overall, I donít see anything suggests Laryea is in for a big endorsement payday at all or that heís really going to get that much more by playing for TFC as opposed to elsewhere.

    There are apps out there that are essentially market places for companies to enlist celebrities to make sponsored content. The cliff where that drops down below $2,500 , heck $1,000, happens fast. We could find people equivalent to Richie to post ridiculous things or hawk products for next to nothing.

    Below is a link to a Forbes profile of Joey Votto. For those who arenít familiar, heís probably the most recognizable Canadian baseball player, a former MVP winner, and all-around more famous than any version of post-WC Laryea. At the time this profile was taken, he was estimated to earn $300k a year from endorsements.

    https://www.forbes.com/profile/joey-...h=25b1bd09bed3
    Last edited by ag futbol; 11-24-2022 at 11:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Let me give you two reference points. And without getting too snarky I’ll let you know I’ve seen a small sample of what’s behind the curtain in this area. Overall, I don’t see anything suggests Laryea is in for a big payday at all or that he’s really going to get that much more by playing for TFC as opposed to elsewhere.

    There are apps out there that are essentially market places for companies to enlist celebrities to make sponsored content. The cliff where that drops down below $2,500 , heck $1,000, happens fast. We could find people equivalent to Richie to post ridiculous things or hawk products for next to nothing.

    Below is a link to a Forbes profile of Joey Votto. For those who aren’t familiar, he’s probably the most recognizable Canadian baseball player, a former MVP winner, and all-around more famous than any version of post-WC Laryea. At the time this profile was taken, he was estimated to earn $300k a year form endorsements.

    https://www.forbes.com/profile/joey-...h=25b1bd09bed3
    Fair, he probably wouldn't be in for a big payday then.

    Let's see what he decides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    Fair, he probably wouldn't be in for a big payday then.

    Let's see what he decides.
    You never know. I personally would be happy if all these guys made bank because it would be a good sell for future nats players and a good silver lining in light of CSAís hardball stance on pay.

    I just get the sneaking suspicion itís not in the cards.

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    Unless i heard it incorrectly Caldwell on the morning Qatar update just called Richie (and others like him, to be fair) a cheat for trying to draw a foul. Kilbane to his credit said, I dont care if you dont like itÖ. If i knock you off stride, itís a foul. Richie has every right to cut in, simple as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    Unless i heard it incorrectly Caldwell on the morning Qatar update just called Richie (and others like him, to be fair) a cheat for trying to draw a foul. Kilbane to his credit said, I dont care if you dont like it…. If i knock you off stride, it’s a foul. Richie has every right to cut in, simple as that.
    Caldwell is a CLOWN

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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie View Post
    Caldwell is a CLOWN
    He's absolutely awful. TSN need to get over their weird insecurities and realize just having a British accent doesn't make you knowledgeable or worth listening too. Give me anyone over Caldwell

    Except Wheeler. The one mercy of this whole thing is not having to hear him commentate. So it could always be worse I guess

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    Unless i heard it incorrectly Caldwell on the morning Qatar update just called Richie (and others like him, to be fair) a cheat for trying to draw a foul. Kilbane to his credit said, I dont care if you dont like it…. If i knock you off stride, it’s a foul. Richie has every right to cut in, simple as that.
    Unbelievable!
    Watching/watched the same.
    Seems so.
    Think Kilbane did a double take in disbelief; caught off guard.
    Was surprised himself and had to interject/interrupt Tosaint whom was about to comment.
    Though the rest of the panel seemed to lean/side with Caldwell and FIFA’s decision/position on this; as explained.
    Even Tosaint; “unnatural leg movement/position”!?
    Garbage. Utter nonsense!

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    Richie is awesome, sure does he flop at time, yes. But much more often than not, he draws a foul. I think for the ref and VAR, it was a bigger thing can we give the minnows 2 penalties in one half against the number 2 ranked team in the world. We need more players who play with no fear on our team (TFC).

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    When I saw we were getting Galdwell/Wileman commentary for the game, I was very sad. My sister (in England) was raving about the commentary on that game--would have loved to hear a neutral call the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    Richie is awesome, sure does he flop at time, yes. But much more often than not, he draws a foul. I think for the ref and VAR, it was a bigger thing can we give the minnows 2 penalties in one half against the number 2 ranked team in the world. We need more players who play with no fear on our team (TFC).
    100%
    we were never going to get a second pk.fifa is so corrupt,the fact that ref is still a ref after what he did in africa is a joke

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    Richie does try to draw a foul but on that time witsel genuinely just stepped on his foot, was fairly clear.

    Also the buchanan one inexplicably called offside was even more of a travesty imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie View Post
    Caldwell is a CLOWN
    Yep. Itís embarrassing he continues to be a part of the TSN broadcast team.

    The man has nothing insightful to share, at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Yep. It’s embarrassing he continues to be a part of the TSN broadcast team.

    The man has nothing insightful to share, at all.
    In fairness he's a defender. He's going to come down on the side of the defender when someone is in the box trying to draw penalties. We all know Richie does that. He's good at it! That said, I wish we'd get the neutral commentary. I almost cried when I realized it was TSN doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    In fairness he's a defender. He's going to come down on the side of the defender when someone is in the box trying to draw penalties. We all know Richie does that. He's good at it! That said, I wish we'd get the neutral commentary. I almost cried when I realized it was TSN doing it.
    I think he has a chip on his shoulder when talking about Canada because it didn't work out with him and the National team. He's been a bitter bitch ever since.
    Same with TFC - He didn't get the gaffer gig and has been overly critical of them ever since.

 

 

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