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  1. #3451
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    Also, please note that TFC is under no contractual obligation to be a CMNT feeder club. Winning is the goal here, if we develop the next big national superstar that is fantastic. The reality is that they are only at TFC for a season or two though. Personally, I would rather win an MLS Cup than sell the next Alphonso Davies to random European club 4.
    I generally agree but I would maintain itís important to have some Canadian content at the club. Give me 2-3 starters and some bench options and thatís reasonable.

    That said, I donít particularly care if we develop that talent ourselves or buy it.

    Quote Originally Posted by levyashin View Post
    The only reason that the academy has produced next to no players for the first team is the lack of quality throughout the coaching staff.
    B B and company are only concerned with the first team squad and the rest of the coaches have their own little fiefdom and have not a clue as to how to progress talent.
    In their defence, Bob gave young players an absolute ton of on-field minutes last year. Were the conditions always right? No. Could you argue his tactical rigidity made it difficult for some to shine (Shaff)? Sure.

    But he gave them the minutes. And thatís literally normally the biggest stumbling block.

    Forgive me for being so harsh in saying this but what I saw in our youth players was generally a bunch of naive, confused play, and a complete lack of understanding about what it takes to be an established pro. Weíve seen this sort of crap repeatedly through different crops.

    First team coaches cannot be counted on to provide this much polish. I think Bob has been more than fair in providing game time. Vanney and others before him, probably not. But again, I think itís on the academy people to start producing more compelling and game-ready options if first team coaches are going to use these players.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 01-13-2023 at 08:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I generally agree but I would maintain itís important to have some Canadian content at the club. Give me 2-3 starters and some bench options and thatís reasonable.

    That said, I donít particularly care if we develop that talent ourselves or buy it.
    I can agree with that. Having an Oso and Richie on the team is important. Especially when they are deserving starters and contributors to a winning club. If you just want to play local kids without them actually earning their way, we are gonna have many years that resemble 2022.

    A lot of people cite Philly as a club that uses only homegrowns, but go check the starting 11 of MLS Cup last year. Most of that team was acquired via Europe and inter-MLS deals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    You do realize that today the situation is the polar opposite, right? Something like 10 of the CMNT players in Qatar had TFC Academy tryouts and were passed over. Starters- Tajon, Johnston, others (there is a list out there). Hell, the one that made it got cut (MAK). The only success story is Oso - kind of.

    Then there is the fact that kids want a shot at Europe, and they donít see TFC providing that to their young players, they see the exact opposite. Guys getting sold to Orlando and Colorado without having a say in where they go.

    The best players here, and their parents, will have learned from the World Cup and TFC roster construction that they should do anything BUT come to TFC.

    TFC Academy is a complete failure, starting with their decision to operate in opposition to Sigma, and probably needs a total rethink.
    That is my point exactly. The academy has been a failure so there needs to be a focus on making it top notch. It needs to be the primary feeder system to the 1st team, especially given the inability of mgmt to attract and sign players.

    As jloome mentioned earlier, BB is now in his 3rd transfer window and the only non DP starting quality signing is Hedges and maybe JJ. It also looks as if Sean Johnson is going to wait on other offers before signing so it seems he also is not keen on TFC.

    I still am of the view that TFC is not an attractive club for non Canadian players, and the only way we can sign these players is to pay significantly more than anyone else. In a salary cap league I don't think that is a formula for long-term success. All the more reason to devote resources to the academy so that it becomes a destination point for young players from Ontario and the primary source of players for the 1st team.
    Last edited by NK Toronto; 01-13-2023 at 10:24 PM.

  4. #3454
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I generally agree but I would maintain itís important to have some Canadian content at the club. Give me 2-3 starters and some bench options and thatís reasonable.

    That said, I donít particularly care if we develop that talent ourselves or buy it.

    As it stands now we are doing neither. TFC is the only professional club in Ontario, which is the soccer hotbed of the country. We need to tap into that player pool, which is only going to get larger and better. It is the only competitive advantage we have.

  5. #3455
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK Toronto View Post
    As it stands now we are doing neither. TFC is the only professional club in Ontario, which is the soccer hotbed of the country. We need to tap into that player pool, which is only going to get larger and better. It is the only competitive advantage we have.
    I'd tell you to duck the barrage of rotten fruit from the legions of Ottawa, York and Forge fans, but...

  6. #3456
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I'd tell you to duck the barrage of rotten fruit from the legions of Ottawa, York and Forge fans, but...
    CPL is a much lower league and those clubs operate on a shoe string budget. Apples to Oranges comparison.....hopefully not rotten apples and oranges.

    I was at a few York games last year, there wasn't more than 2,000 in attendance at either match. I have concerns about the long-term viability of the league
    Last edited by NK Toronto; 01-13-2023 at 10:30 PM.

  7. #3457
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    ^That's cherry-picking one of the poorer teams in the CanPL whose FO and ownership have made just about every mis-step possible. ATO is backstopped by Atletico Madrid and they've generally made good decisions year over year. Better to look at the crowds at Forge and ATO games to determine what crowd sizes are like (HFX is the crown jewel). COVID didn't help matters, but things are slowly improving overall. I'm expecting crowds of at least 5k to ATO games this year (which is the minimum required for CanPL teams to break even without a media deal). I found ATO games to be entertaining last year and I'm looking forward to seeing how much CanPL teams can push the MLS teams in the Voyageur Cup this year.

  8. #3458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    ^That's cherry-picking... I found ATO games to be entertaining last year and I'm looking forward to seeing how much CanPL teams can push the MLS teams in the Voyageur Cup this year.
    I would further suggest... nay, perhaps, even punish. Healthy competition checks complacency.

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    I don't know people, I look at the roster & there are a lot of academy kids on there.

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    Lets hope TFC may emulate...



    Franco Escobar- Defender- RB to Houston Dynamo. This sort of signing is fueling my concern about Bob et. al. It is the not knowing/believing we may have considered or even been in on such a player. At least any preliminary discussions; kicking the tires. Perception is perspective. Any debate about the type of player he may actually be briefly set aside for example purpose; though fair. He is a position we could use/need as a RB; shift Laryea to LB. Superficially... not that expensive; Y22 salary 550K, now +15 to 20%? Also, has experience; won 2MLS Cups. Some argue, quality. Maybe a matter of not enough or who we are looking for? Maybe a case of just does not want to come to 'Toronto'?
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-14-2023 at 07:29 AM.

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    *manifesting rumors out of South America on U22 signings happening today*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    *manifesting rumors out of South America on U22 signings happening today*
    This is Bob's world. Some of those U22s might manifest from Egypt or Scandinavia. Maybe North Eastern Europe.

  13. #3463
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I don't know people, I look at the roster & there are a lot of academy kids on there.
    I think we are talking about impactful players vs just filling out the roster. A number of MLS teams (maybe all?) have 10 academy players or whatever in the 30, on the bench or rotating into the roster, and sure, those players get a chance just by being there.

    But the question “are the best 10 players in my region coming to my team's academy” is the one to ask. They are in Philly and Dallas….

    We are not the only team with this problem btw. The Revs, located in a fabulous area, soccer is big all over New England, have hardly produced anyone either.

    It's a complicated issue. Players have all kinds of decisions to make, and NCAA is also a viable track to the big time (eg. Tajon)
    Last edited by ensco; 01-14-2023 at 09:10 AM.
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

  14. #3464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    This is Bob's world. Some of those U22s might manifest from Egypt or Scandinavia. Maybe North Eastern Europe.
    LAFC were heavy on Colombians and Ecuadorians. Big value in those markets compared to Argentina or Brazil

  15. #3465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    Lets hope TFC may emulate...



    Franco Escobar- Defender- RB to Houston Dynamo. This sort of signing is fueling my concern about Bob et. al. It is the not knowing/believing we may have considered or even been in on such a player. At least any preliminary discussions; kicking the tires. Perception is perspective. Any debate about the type of player he may actually be briefly set aside for example purpose; though fair. He is a position we could use/need as a RB; shift Laryea to LB. Superficially... not that expensive; Y22 salary 550K, now +15 to 20%? Also, has experience; won 2MLS Cups. Some argue, quality. Maybe a matter of not enough or who we are looking for? Maybe a case of just does not want to come to 'Toronto'?
    I think it's more likely we consider some of these people but they have reservations specifically BECAUSE they're a known quantity. Also, some of them we may be bidding on but not bidding enough, because of how their potential is valued next to known entities on the team.


    Really, the truth is TFC has locked up tight on info and the media are doing a shit job of ferreting it out, because properly funded and trained media is largely dead in this country. It's 90% fanboys with no training, trying to grab something from Europe off Twitter or Google News searches before anyone else notices it.

    So we just don't hear about most of their business, period.
    Last edited by jloome; 01-14-2023 at 11:50 AM. Reason: spelling

  16. #3466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    LAFC were heavy on Colombians and Ecuadorians. Big value in those markets compared to Argentina or Brazil

    International football is so well-scouted now, it's hard to see anyone who isn't local and getting them very young finding gems. Every player in the first and second divisions there is scouted by every major European club long before we hear about them.

    Most of the Colombians coming into MLS now (and Argentines, too, for that matter) are coming in on multimillion dollar deals. Nobody's getting someone cheap or free anymore, unless they're cast off/overlooked/risky, all of which are rare as value.

  17. #3467
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    Headline in the Toronto Sun:

    Toronto FC roster no longer resembles a teenage youth club

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    International football is so well-scouted now, it's hard to see anyone who isn't local and getting them very young finding gems. Every player in the first and second divisions there is scouted by every major European club long before we hear about them.

    Most of the Colombians coming into MLS now (and Argentines, too, for that matter) are coming in on multimillion dollar deals. Nobody's getting someone cheap or free anymore, unless they're cast off/overlooked/risky, all of which are rare as value.
    I agree with this a lot - the arbitrage opportunities don't exist anymore on transfers in MLS. Nowadays it simply isn't a thing because these players simply go for market value and so the relative quality for money is just normalized, but maybe there's something actually interesting, I will admit I'm not exactly the most in the know.

  19. #3469
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    International football is so well-scouted now, it's hard to see anyone who isn't local and getting them very young finding gems. Every player in the first and second divisions there is scouted by every major European club long before we hear about them.

    Most of the Colombians coming into MLS now (and Argentines, too, for that matter) are coming in on multimillion dollar deals. Nobody's getting someone cheap or free anymore, unless they're cast off/overlooked/risky, all of which are rare as value.
    Also value only lasts for a year or two. I mean, why is Arango being offered around? It has to be about his contract - the guy "deserves" serious DP money and makes $600K
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Also value only lasts for a year or two. I mean, why is Arango being offered around? It has to be about his contract - the guy "deserves" serious DP money and makes $600K
    I suspect he's a "two and out" guy. You'll never get him for more than two years as long as he's playing in a league below his skill level. LA probably recognize this, too, so they lowball them on the guaranteed years, then offer them two option years at much higher figures and try to move them before those kick in.

    His numbers are so good, as well, that his agent is almost certainly telling him he can get equal money to anything LA is willing to offer in Turkey, France or Portugal, maybe even a lower level La Liga club.

    So anyone who goes in for him is a) going to have to pay LA near-record GAM, probably $2M at least (which apparently we have, after under-spending it last year); and b) going to have to offer him upper TAM/DP money and a guarantee of a second-year bump. If he can't get that in MLS, he'll just go elsewhere when his option year (next season, I think) comes up.
    Last edited by jloome; 01-14-2023 at 11:56 AM.

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    We may lose Sean Johnson to Anderlecht. They have to cut their wage bill, so they're trying to get e4M for their present keeper, Van Crombugge, who makes e1.6M per season. Johnson can probably get more than we're allowed to offer over NYFC from them, assuming their wage cutting isn't so extreme that even he's priced out.

    They only have a 20-year-old as backup. Given that SJ is not on big money now -- $550,000 (jc TFC, what the fuck with Bono...) -- The most we can offer him is $630,000 USD per season for the first season, $756,000 for the second season.

    We could maybe sweeten it with a four-year deal that is heavily loaded on the back end, but I don't think the league will sanction guaranteed third and fourth years for an internal transfer. (However, if it's true that full inter-league transfers are coming next year, they maybe would wave this.)

    So basically Anderlecht can cut their starting wage in half and still offer more than we're allowed to offer. And he's 33. he needs the money now, not guarantees for when he's 35 and 36.

    This is why transfers are coming next year, I believe. Owner groups are probably getting hamstrung now by internal controls whilst also taking part in a competitive global marketplace; it's the Soviet Union and clock radios, basically.

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    ^dammit jloome, I bet you on Long starting in the WC (and lost) and meant to bet you on SJ going to Europe. But forgot!
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

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    ^ this is one of those stupid MLS-isms but we could probably do a sign-and-trade with NYCFC to get around the salary limitation. In return NYC gets allocation or something like that. Thought process being, something is better than nothing if they lose him on a free.

    But again, I would only go so far in terms of cost. Go find the next Petrovic if this gets expensive.

  24. #3474
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    ^ this is one of those stupid MLS-isms but we could probably do a sign-and-trade with NYCFC to get around the salary limitation. In return NYC gets allocation or something like that. Thought process being, something is better than nothing if they lose him on a free.

    But again, I would only go so far in terms of cost. Go find the next Petrovic if this gets expensive.
    Oh for sure. Eastern Europe is still grossly undercompensated relative to the talent level. I guarantee you there's a starting keeper in Albania, Serbia, Romania that at we could poach for a song.

    The other thing in our favor with Johnson is that he can't wait forever. He knows the closer TFC gets to camp, the more likely they find someone else before he makes up his mind.

    And Anderlecht may need to sell Van Crombrugge before they can even sign Johnson, or be trying to get Johnson on a lower wage than current because they haven't sold their current starter yet (although they have benched him to protect him from injury, and told him he'll be sold).

    So we might still end up with him.

  25. #3475
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^dammit jloome, I bet you on Long starting in the WC (and lost) and meant to bet you on SJ going to Europe. But forgot!
    A lot depends on Anderlecht's intentions. If they have enough leg room to sign him before they move their starter, he's probably gone. Last chance at European football, better money.

    But if they need to get Johnson specifically because they think he can be had for a song, less than he's making now, because they don't actually have a buyer yet for Van Crombugge, we might be in luck.

    He already turned down one offer from Europe, Holland I think, that was lower than he makes now, allegedly. So at his age, and with some holes in his game, they may just be bargain hunting.

    Of course, Anderlecht is a relatively big club. It's more likely they already know which clubs are interested in their starter and Johnson is a stop-gap. So they'll pay him a million euros and still save a ton of cash.

    There's also the family factor. Does his family like Toronto? Do they want to stay in New York? Does the prospect of uprooting them to belgium for 18 months or two years sound sensible? His age makes all that more of a factor.

    Last edited by jloome; 01-14-2023 at 01:41 PM.

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    Who are the options if we DON'T get him? There are some pretty slim pickings but they do exist.

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    It has become eerily quiet on the rumor front.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuushalinsky View Post
    Who are the options if we DON'T get him? There are some pretty slim pickings but they do exist.
    I suspect they'll have to pony up some transfer money to get the person they want, if we don't get Johnson.

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    This would be perfect for LB. Which is probably why it wonít happen. Also, selfishly sort of hope he gets a bigger platform in Europe. His game is criminally underrated.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GalindoPW...82314023931906

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    Hamid is the obvious guy sitting out there. Not sure how much of his woes relate to the general crappiness of DCU. I know he has had injuries, but the one last year (a hand injury) doesn’t sound long term worrying.

    I'd be fine with it. But I would prefer SJ.
    Last edited by ensco; 01-14-2023 at 04:17 PM.
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

 

 

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