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Thread: Fire the Coach

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Very simply put: a poor craftsman blames his tools. Bob’s had some time to make changes to the roster. His additions have not helped the team. The players we have disposed of have greatly helped other teams.

    Professional Players are tactically flexible. The idea we have or stick to one system or that ruins our future prospects is dogma.
    There are many good points pro and con Bob, but to your point, it is interesting that he said that young players often need a change to meet their full potential. It may not be true in all cases but there is no doubt that most youth players out of the academy that have graduated to the first team have underperformed over the life of the club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Very simply put: a poor craftsman blames his tools. Bob’s had some time to make changes to the roster. His additions have not helped the team. The players we have disposed of have greatly helped other teams.

    Professional Players are tactically flexible. The idea we have or stick to one system or that ruins our future prospects is dogma.
    If by system you mean formation, lots of teams play with one formation. I've never seen Liverpool or City for example play in anything but 4-3-3 under Klopp and Pep. It's what you do tactically within it that matters. Others have addressed the tactical inflexibility narrative elsewhere.

    Personally I'm a bit worried our terrible defensive performances aren't just a player issue, and that we need to look at the system too. At least consider altering our set-up in the 4-3-3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    If by system you mean formation, lots of teams play with one formation. I've never seen Liverpool or City for example play in anything but 4-3-3 under Klopp and Pep. It's what you do tactically within it that matters. Others have addressed the tactical inflexibility narrative elsewhere.

    Personally I'm a bit worried our terrible defensive performances aren't just a player issue, and that we need to look at the system too. At least consider altering our set-up in the 4-3-3.
    And that’s fine, when you have the talent that supports sticking to one style. But TFC this year does not have the talent

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    About once a year I do a post which says: nothing is more overrated than formation talk in soccer.

    I am deeply influenced by Cruyff and total football on this. The Barcelona media were constantly trying to pigeon hole him on system, and called it the "liquid diamond". Which he thought was hilarious, because they had no idea how to call it when guys were moving around so much. He laughed and said:

    - Football is triangles, movement, vision
    - Formation doesn’t matter. You put your best XI out there. Knowing what to do out there is not about zones or staying in an area. Responsibilities are determined by game situation and change second to second.
    - Never play a square ball.

    That's it.

    (Canada do an awful lot of this, when they are on, btw. Davies, Buchanan, Hoilett, Laryea, they can pop up all over the place, and do.)
    Last edited by ensco; 09-23-2022 at 11:09 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    About once a year I do a post which says: nothing is more overrated than formation talk in soccer.

    I am deeply influenced by Cruyff and total football on this. The Barcelona media were constantly trying to pigeon hole him on system, and called it the "liquid diamond". He laughed and said:

    - Football is triangles, movement, vision
    - Formation doesn’t matter. You put your best XI out there. Knowing what to do out there is not about zones or staying in an area. Responsibilities are determined by game situation and change second to second.
    - Never play a square ball.

    That's it.
    Yeah formation talk IS overrated, I agree with that. It's a pretty simple game at the end of the day.
    Last edited by Canary10; 09-23-2022 at 11:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Yeah formation talk IS overrated, I agree with that. It's a pretty simple game at the end of the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    And that’s fine, when you have the talent that supports sticking to one style. But TFC this year does not have the talent
    As Ensco points out, there is no "one style" in top level tactics anymore. It's all tendency based, based on the opponent. Starting formations don't really indicate what's going to happen after the whistle blows because zonal responsibilities change dramatically based on opponent.

    I'm with Ag. He shows no humility about his role in playing players he thinks are un-coachable, or didn't accept the message. In his speech, it's all on them to make it.

    He might be right about the kids. But then why the fuck did he show faith in them all year? Why was Kosi Thompson starting twenty games at right back when Kobe Franklin is clearly a better right back? Because he thinks Thompson will never make it? He made it to the second league's team of the year again.

    Why did we even bring Chung in if he was going to reposition Thompson, a kid who looked a real prospect at midfield but utterly woeful, game after game, at right back?

    No, this was not just "the roster wasn't good enough." He approved this tear-down, the lack of pursuit of a new keeper, the decision to bring in Salcedo. He wears this as much as the players.

    I've had enough of this debate. Once the next transfer window is done, he's had three. If he can't build a competitive roster in three transfer windows, with this club's resources, he should be fired.

    The same problems -- goalie, line leader -- have existed for years. Years. They had to know that at the start of the season. They either didn't recognize Bono is just deeply flawed, or decided to chance him not being too much of an impediment. That right there was a momentously bad, arrogant decision. "No other manager has fixed his two-goal-a-game flubs, but I will."

    Surely he at least wears that.

    If he signs a top central defender and a top goalie, and this all turns around, great.

    But I suspect his shortcomings will prevent this from becoming a great franchise under him. I look back his time in Swansea, Egypt and LA -- and keep in mind I spent two-thirds of this season on the 'give him time' bandwagon -- and the complaints I see from his detractors are all the same shit: playing guys out of position, projecting arrogance, being tactically naive or inflexible.

    When he left LA, they were in a deep slide after three years of success. The guy who replaced him, Steve Cherundolo, had one of the worst first-year coaching records in the history of USL on his resume, and nothing else as a manager. The only major roster changes there this season have involved big stars who are old and play relatively infrequently compared to their younger players. And yet suddenly, they're a dominant team again.

    So no, not convinced he's not mostly smoke and confidence.

    I will, however, temper all of this: if the fluidity and discipline of that Charlotte game is what we're supposed to look like, great. Then maybe we won't see more of the same next year.

    But three transfer windows should be enough to get it done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post

    I will, however, temper all of this: if the fluidity and discipline of that Charlotte game is what we're supposed to look like, great. Then maybe we won't see more of the same next year.

    But three transfer windows should be enough to get it done.
    That Charlotte game you speak only saw us play our best 11 for about 45 minutes. We haven't seen that "Best 11" lineup again this season.


    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post

    But three transfer windows should be enough to get it done.
    3 transfer windows would be:

    - Summer 2022
    - Winter 2022/23
    - Summer 2023


    That first window that Bob was here,Winter 2021/22, wasn't about bringing guys in and building a roster.
    It was about evaluating what we had left from a completely disastrous 2021 season and then tearing it all down by sending 22 of those guys away, some of who were in the middle of substantial contracts

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    That Charlotte game you speak only saw us play our best 11 for about 45 minutes. We haven't seen that "Best 11" lineup again this season.




    3 transfer windows would be:

    - Summer 2022
    - Winter 2022/23
    - Summer 2023


    That first window that Bob was here,Winter 2021/22, wasn't about bringing guys in and building a roster.
    It was about evaluating what we had left from a completely disastrous 2021 season and then tearing it all down by sending 22 of those guys away, some of who were in the middle of substantial contracts
    You don’t understand what a transfer window is? Players come in, yes. Players also go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    You don’t understand what a transfer window is? Players come in, yes. Players also go.
    Obviously I know what a transfer window is ya dumbass.

    The point is we shouldn't hold that first transfer window against him when scrutinizing the number of windows it takes to get the final pieces in.
    I've already seen people saying he should have everything in place by the end of the next window, as that would be 3 windows that he's been here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    About once a year I do a post which says: nothing is more overrated than formation talk in soccer.

    I am deeply influenced by Cruyff and total football on this. The Barcelona media were constantly trying to pigeon hole him on system, and called it the "liquid diamond". Which he thought was hilarious, because they had no idea how to call it when guys were moving around so much. He laughed and said:

    - Football is triangles, movement, vision
    - Formation doesn’t matter. You put your best XI out there. Knowing what to do out there is not about zones or staying in an area. Responsibilities are determined by game situation and change second to second.
    - Never play a square ball.

    That's it.

    (Canada do an awful lot of this, when they are on, btw. Davies, Buchanan, Hoilett, Laryea, they can pop up all over the place, and do.)
    Formation talk is for the many fans out there on chat sites that think they know soccer , the ones who have never played the game other then on a Sunday morning in their beer league

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Obviously I know what a transfer window is ya dumbass.

    The point is we shouldn't hold that first transfer window against him when scrutinizing the number of windows it takes to get the final pieces in.
    I've already seen people saying he should have everything in place by the end of the next window, as that would be 3 windows that he's been here.
    Yeah 3 windows.

    1, 2, 3.

    If you want to give him 4, then say he should have 4.

    Don't say one of them doesn't count. A window, is a window.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Yeah 3 windows.

    1, 2, 3.

    If you want to give him 4, then say he should have 4.

    Don't say one of them doesn't count. A window, is a window.
    Given that we signed Insigne, Jimenez and Salcedo in that window, it can't have been that limited.

    Don't see why we couldn't also have signed a starting goalie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Given that we signed Insigne, Jimenez and Salcedo in that window, it can't have been that limited.

    Don't see why we couldn't also have signed a starting goalie.
    I give current management a pass on the GK issue as Bono's contract was untradeable.

    To get a starter we would have needed at least $500K allocated which meant going into the year with around $1M locked away at the GK position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I give current management a pass on the GK issue as Bono's contract was untradeable.

    To get a starter we would have needed at least $500K allocated which meant going into the year with around $1M locked away at the GK position.
    He cost us at least 15 points.

    I mean, it's not like he got better. Ever. He's had the exact same two-goals-per-game average now since 2018.

    We couldn't afford NOT to replace him. That was a hard 'must.'

    We had four empty roster spaces and DID sign a goalie, Ranjitsingh.

    We just needed to sign a better one and bench Bono.

    Given his stats, no one was going to come in for him. Except as a backup, no one will when his contract expires, either.

    I'll qualify that and say maybe they tried and we didn't hear about it, or maybe there were cap issues due to how long it took to release other players.

    But that was an awful mistake, as was repurposing Shaff as a LB and Thompson as a RB.

    Kerr, also, clearly has offensive talent and could become a good player someday. But he was lost out there most of the time.

    At least with Jayden, the move inside created a happy accident of learning that two-way responsibilities curbed his dopey decision making.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I give current management a pass on the GK issue as Bono's contract was untradeable.

    To get a starter we would have needed at least $500K allocated which meant going into the year with around $1M locked away at the GK position.
    All teams have guys who don’t play on big deals. Its part of MLS life. We easily could have just sat Bono, paid his salary, and signed another GK. In fact we did sign one, he just never played. (The Ranjitsingh thing was a bizarre piece of roster mgmt, to say the least.)
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    He cost us at least 15 points.

    I mean, it's not like he got better. Ever. He's had the exact same two-goals-per-game average now since 2018.

    We couldn't afford NOT to replace him. That was a hard 'must.'

    We had four empty roster spaces and DID sign a goalie, Ranjitsingh.

    We just needed to sign a better one and bench Bono.

    Given his stats, no one was going to come in for him. Except as a backup, no one will when his contract expires, either.

    I'll qualify that and say maybe they tried and we didn't hear about it, or maybe there were cap issues due to how long it took to release other players.

    But that was an awful mistake, as was repurposing Shaff as a LB and Thompson as a RB.

    Kerr, also, clearly has offensive talent and could become a good player someday. But he was lost out there most of the time.

    At least with Jayden, the move inside created a happy accident of learning that two-way responsibilities curbed his dopey decision making.
    Yes I agree. I mentioned before the season started he was a liability that would cost us points.

    I didn't foresee that they would give him so much room for error and not have Westburg take over the role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    All teams have guys who don’t play on big deals. Its part of MLS life. We easily could have just sat Bono, paid his salary, and signed another GK. In fact we did sign one, he just never played. (The Ranjitsingh thing was a bizarre piece of roster mgmt, to say the least.)
    They probably thought they could somehow make Bono presentable and trade worthy. Huge mistake of course.

    Westburg should have been #1 this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    He cost us at least 15 points.

    I mean, it's not like he got better. Ever. He's had the exact same two-goals-per-game average now since 2018.

    We couldn't afford NOT to replace him. That was a hard 'must.'

    We had four empty roster spaces and DID sign a goalie, Ranjitsingh.

    We just needed to sign a better one and bench Bono.

    Given his stats, no one was going to come in for him. Except as a backup, no one will when his contract expires, either.

    I'll qualify that and say maybe they tried and we didn't hear about it, or maybe there were cap issues due to how long it took to release other players.

    But that was an awful mistake, as was repurposing Shaff as a LB and Thompson as a RB.

    Kerr, also, clearly has offensive talent and could become a good player someday. But he was lost out there most of the time.

    At least with Jayden, the move inside created a happy accident of learning that two-way responsibilities curbed his dopey decision making.
    With all the work and training they do, it's really hard to imagine how a goalkeeper gets so progressively worse over the years. Really need to address that coach too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    They probably thought they could somehow make Bono presentable and trade worthy. Huge mistake of course.

    Westburg should have been #1 this year.
    Anyone remember when Westberg got Covid? Maybe he was meant to be the first string and Bono was expected to sit all year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Very simply put: a poor craftsman blames his tools.
    As an aside

    That particular saying has had me rolling my eyes since I was a kid

    My Dad was a draftsman, an engineer & owned a metal fabricating shop. I grew up with the smell of welding dust & paint.

    You CAN blame your tools because not every tool provided is decent.

    Its like people trying to use the only available screwdriver, which is a slot, when a phillips head is on the screw - blame your tool because its not good enough. Then go buy a better one next time in Crappy Tire.


    AND...use Robertson screws...DUH!
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 09-23-2022 at 04:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    As an aside

    That particular saying has had me rolling my eyes since I was a kid

    My Dad was a draftsman, an engineer & owned a metal fabricating shop. I grew up with the smell of welding dust & paint.

    You CAN blame your tools because not every tool provided is decent.

    Its like people trying to use the only available screwdriver, which is a slot, when a phillips head is on the screw - blame your tool because its not good enough. Then go buy a better one next time in Crappy Tire.
    Which is fair but if you buy a Spanish Phillips head from Poland. And then complain about said tool and use the old Canadian one instead (that doesn’t perform either), who can really be blamed but one’s own judgment?
    Last edited by ag futbol; 09-23-2022 at 04:44 PM.

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    In my mind, BB has one more window. If the team has not showed a marked improvement by end of May, he should be gone so we have a fresh mind to start rebuilding for the June transfer window. If Manning doesn't have some ideas in the back of his head on who would replace BB if things go south next year, then he should be gone as well.

    And regardless, it's time for Conway to move on from the GK Coach position. A decade is long enough. Bring in some new blood there. I think we can all agree on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    All teams have guys who don’t play on big deals. Its part of MLS life. We easily could have just sat Bono, paid his salary, and signed another GK. In fact we did sign one, he just never played. (The Ranjitsingh thing was a bizarre piece of roster mgmt, to say the least.)
    That signing has always indicated to me that they had a deal for one of Bono or Westberg & it fell apart at the very very last minute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    That signing has always indicated to me that they had a deal for one of Bono or Westberg & it fell apart at the very very last minute.
    Ranjitsingh was always intended as the #3 keeper , just cover in case of injury, a lot of shouts on here to play Ranjitsingh but trust me he is no professional keeper, really hope Bob gives him a start just to shut up the guys he think this guy is any good

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    ^Using 3 senior slots on GKs was not smart, in fact borderline nuts.

    There was an excellent rundown of how unusual it is, and how much roster flexibility it cost us, done by a blogger. Couldn’t find it quickly. I posted it somewhere earlier in this thread a couple of months ago.

    btw I vote for Mbongue, if we are giving someone a run out.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    I would run out Kobe Franklin. Pure spec, but some have suggested he passed on a first team contract and is going to test the market.

    If you’re going to make an offer (or pass), at least get an idea of what he looks like playing with the first team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I would run out Kobe Franklin. Pure spec, but some have suggested he passed on a first team contract and is going to test the market.

    If you’re going to make an offer (or pass), at least get an idea of what he looks like playing with the first team.
    Yeah, his contract is up at the end of November. I suspect at this point we will lose him.

    If he shows good in MLS, after making the MLSNEXT/USL first-teams two seasons in a row, letting him go when we didn't even have a starting right back under contract is going to look awfully stupid.

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    MLS is a "money ball" league in the sense that you have to round out your roster with decent quality players on relatively small contracts. TFC has not been able to do this. To me this is a bigger issue than the coach. Is there anyone on our current squad who you would consider as underpaid and worthy of a larger contract? The last players that I consider fit this category were VV and Drew Moore. Do we even have a scouting dept.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Obviously I know what a transfer window is ya dumbass.

    The point is we shouldn't hold that first transfer window against him when scrutinizing the number of windows it takes to get the final pieces in.
    I've already seen people saying he should have everything in place by the end of the next window, as that would be 3 windows that he's been here.
    Please don't call anyone on this board a dumbass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Please don't call anyone on this board a dumbass.
    I won't make any promises

 

 

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