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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I’m going to respectfully disagree here. The statistical models are far from full proof (especially the ones we layman look at).

    If you see an opposing attacker barrel though midfield and Michael Bradley drops to the back between the CB’s rather than pressure (as should be a DM’s primary job) it has little statistical impact on his score. The impact on our team on the other hand is huge.

    All the following can be true: a great player, a great servant to the club, and at 35 years of age, not able to contribute in the same way he was earlier in the career.
    Don't mind discussing this at all. I think an 85% pass completion (one of the best records in the league for a midfielder), expected goals per 90 minutes are all still up there. So he's still quite strong offensively. On the defensive side what you are saying about not pressuring as much is true much of the time and probably is because he's slowed down a bit and knows that he won't win the tackle. I'm not sure that equals to benching him and playing someone else, our defensive woes have many factors.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Don't mind discussing this at all. I think an 85% pass completion (one of the best records in the league for a midfielder), expected goals per 90 minutes are all still up there. So he's still quite strong offensively. On the defensive side what you are saying about not pressuring as much is true much of the time and probably is because he's slowed down a bit and knows that he won't win the tackle. I'm not sure that equals to benching him and playing someone else, our defensive woes have many factors.
    He was averaging two tackles per game the last time I looked, so heís not terrible defensively, either.

    His inability to keep up with explosive attackers sometimes hurts us but usually itís when the teamís defensive shape has already begun to fall apart.

    Thatís really been reduced over the last five games. I think his tackle rate has gone down slightly but thatís to be expected if heís not trying to play anchor, rather than two-way (which all three mids have to play in this system, it alternates between staggered and triangle defensively, for the most part).

    Iíve certainly argued his speed costs us sometimes and thereís no doubt we improved under Vanney when he was out for most of 2020 and Osorio/Delgado played twin pivots. But we donít have Mark Delgado anymore, and Bradley is playing really well right now, so itís a bit moot.

    The dude is old enough that he probably sees next year as his final year playing; if he spends it platooning, I donít think heíd be surprised or difficult about it. For all the various discussions of the Bradleys as passionate and argumentative about football online, heís never struck me as a dummy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Don't mind discussing this at all. I think an 85% pass completion (one of the best records in the league for a midfielder), expected goals per 90 minutes are all still up there. So he's still quite strong offensively. On the defensive side what you are saying about not pressuring as much is true much of the time and probably is because he's slowed down a bit and knows that he won't win the tackle. I'm not sure that equals to benching him and playing someone else, our defensive woes have many factors.
    Thatís entirely fair. Youíre right that heís not singularly the issue on defence.

    Not suggesting we boot the guy out but I think always going 90 and / or playing twice a week when the scheduling gets bunched is unwise. Appreciating our depth is paper thin and that complicates rotation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Don't mind discussing this at all. I think an 85% pass completion (one of the best records in the league for a midfielder), expected goals per 90 minutes are all still up there. So he's still quite strong offensively. On the defensive side what you are saying about not pressuring as much is true much of the time and probably is because he's slowed down a bit and knows that he won't win the tackle. I'm not sure that equals to benching him and playing someone else, our defensive woes have many factors.
    Bradley has literally never been good offensively, even in his prime. Bottom line - his goals and assists record with us is there for all to see, and it is what it is over an extremely long sample. And that's fine for a player in his position, Busquets isn't judged on his offensive game and neither should Bradley.

    His best seasons have come from when he's focused on the defensive side of his game, and you can measure that by him getting more interceptions/tackles and trying less long and chipped passes those seasons on Whoscored. His problems all occur when he tries to be something offensively he isn't

    I do agree he is not the sole issue with our defense, though, and we have deeper issues there. His age is showing, but he's still a solid DM when he focuses on that part of his game and still has some great assets (His touches per game continues to be absolutely elite level and that's a huge difference maker in that area). His problem continues to be that he doesn't seem to want to focus on that part of the pitch and his game breaks down when he tries to be some kind of play maker
    Last edited by JoesphNdo; 08-12-2022 at 01:05 PM.

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    as for bradley not keeping up with explosive attackers, he even got blown past in his prime.

    i was watching the portland home highlights from 2017 the other day and check out the clip starting at 1:40.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQXZU1lAaLE&t=295s

    i think people have tricked themselves into thinking that that tackle vs columbus was how michael bradley was all the time prior to 2019.

    maybe it happens more often now, but this has always happened (and does with basically every cdm).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    Bradley has literally never been good offensively, even in his prime.
    I mean… he was never in the position to be. The one season he played in the hole, for Hereenven in the Eredivisie, he had 15 goals in the league and another 3(? going by memory, sometimes shoddy) in cup play.

    So…. 18 goals in a season in the Eredivisie is an outlier, but one that says his role had more to do with it than his ability.

    I should also note he was about 19 years old at the time, so a looong time ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I meanÖ he was never in the position to be. The one season he played in the hole, for Hereenven in the Eredivisie, he had 15 goals in the league and another 3(? going by memory, sometimes shoddy) in cup play.

    SoÖ. 18 goals in a season in the Eredivisie is an outlier, but one that says his role had more to do with it than his ability.

    I should also note he was about 19 years old at the time, so a looong time ago.
    For sure, again judging a defensive mid fielder on their offensive output is, obviously, completely unfair. But it's also ridiculous to say someone with no statistically measurable offensive output over a long period of time with us has been strong offensively. It's not his game, and that's fine, but it just isn't true to say he has ever been strong offensively with us

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    But it's also ridiculous to say someone with no statistically measurable offensive output over a long period of time with us has been strong offensively.
    There's also deep lying playmakers and facilitators where their input is invaluable to the offense but it will never show on that stats sheet other than with passing % and positive pass numbers. Not saying Bradley is that but everything runs through him from the back for better or worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    There's also deep lying playmakers and facilitators where their input is invaluable to the offense but it will never show on that stats sheet other than with passing % and positive pass numbers. Not saying Bradley is that but everything runs through him from the back for better or worse.
    True to an extent, but I don't know of many with as few goals, assists, second assists and key passes (Records on the latter two being hard to find except in the very modern era, granted) over a long sample. Somebody like say Xabi Alonso or to an extent Pirlo would be an example of this and they show up with *alot* more goals and assists than Bradley has with us.

    They won't get the numbers of a number ten, but you'll see their output show up in the numbers still

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I meanÖ he was never in the position to be. The one season he played in the hole, for Hereenven in the Eredivisie, he had 15 goals in the league and another 3(? going by memory, sometimes shoddy) in cup play.

    SoÖ. 18 goals in a season in the Eredivisie is an outlier, but one that says his role had more to do with it than his ability.

    I should also note he was about 19 years old at the time, so a looong time ago.
    He played pretty high up in the midfield diamond in 2015.

    5 goals, 6 assists

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23sC_Zf8Wg

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    True to an extent, but I don't know of many with as few goals, assists, second assists and key passes (Records on the latter two being hard to find except in the very modern era, granted) over a long sample. Somebody like say Xabi Alonso or to an extent Pirlo would be an example of this and they show up with *alot* more goals and assists than Bradley has with us.

    They won't get the numbers of a number ten, but you'll see their output show up in the numbers still
    Just out of interest: Bradley, career club and country: 62 goals in 629 matches. One in ten.

    2006 - 2011 in Holland and Germany, 26 in 139. One in Five.

    How a player is used and with whom - context - is of course, huge. Once he got to Italy he played deeper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    True to an extent, but I don't know of many with as few goals, assists, second assists and key passes (Records on the latter two being hard to find except in the very modern era, granted) over a long sample. Somebody like say Xabi Alonso or to an extent Pirlo would be an example of this and they show up with *alot* more goals and assists than Bradley has with us.

    They won't get the numbers of a number ten, but you'll see their output show up in the numbers still
    I believe he could probably average 5 or so a year still if he decided to shoot more often. So many times he is pretty clear at the top of the box and passes it off. Probably because he has his mind on the defensive side because we're shit on counters but still.

    Didn't he have some ridiculous stat a few years back where he took almost no shots all season?
    Last edited by Ultra & Proud; 08-12-2022 at 04:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    He played pretty high up in the midfield diamond in 2015.

    5 goals, 6 assists

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23sC_Zf8Wg
    He did. This debate has been going in for some years, hah - whatís Bradleyís best role?

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    He played pretty high up in the midfield diamond in 2015.

    5 goals, 6 assists

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23sC_Zf8Wg
    Btw, thanks for digging up those highlights. Great in general (no pun intended) to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by los sonadores View Post
    He did. This debate has been going in for some years, hah - what’s Bradley’s best role?
    Now?

    Funny thing about this debate is we all seem to be forgetting the Charlotte game.

    ************


    Weather tomorrow will be less then hot but sunny - great weather for hopefully a big crowd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Now?

    Funny thing about this debate is we all seem to be forgetting the Charlotte game.

    ************


    Weather tomorrow will be less then hot but sunny - great weather for hopefully a big crowd.
    I didn't forget that Charlotte match and how much better Bradley plays when he doesn't *feel* like he has to do everything and be everywhere.

    And yes, tomorrow should have some awesome weather. Looking forward to not roasting.
    Last edited by Ultra & Proud; 08-12-2022 at 08:02 PM.

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    Will the game be streamed somewheres? My satellite receiver quit on me today, and I won't get a new one in for 2-3 business days!
    TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    For sure, again judging a defensive mid fielder on their offensive output is, obviously, completely unfair. But it's also ridiculous to say someone with no statistically measurable offensive output over a long period of time with us has been strong offensively. It's not his game, and that's fine, but it just isn't true to say he has ever been strong offensively with us
    Fully agreed. And his stats are very inflated with the rinky dink sideways and back passes. Very low risk, very low reward.

    He is not an offensive threat at all. So then is he is truly a DM, then we can judge his contributions defensively. We again are one of the worst goals aginst sides in all of mls. Not all Mike's fault, but he plays 90 minutes and his role as a DM is to solidify the D..... And as Section 223 pointed out, this year alone Mike has been directly responsible for 7 goals against due to his mistakes. And how many more indirectly? I.e second goal the other night getting beat on the header by Romney or first goal, not breaking up the play.

    Anyways, its a mute point, Mike is signed to end of next year and we don't have and won't bring in his replacement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    True to an extent, but I don't know of many with as few goals, assists, second assists and key passes (Records on the latter two being hard to find except in the very modern era, granted) over a long sample. Somebody like say Xabi Alonso or to an extent Pirlo would be an example of this and they show up with *alot* more goals and assists than Bradley has with us.

    They won't get the numbers of a number ten, but you'll see their output show up in the numbers still
    Agreed.

    For me the best example of a "perfect" DM is Casemiro. He breaks up play, lets Real's stars do their thing and provides cover, pockets whomever he marks (like 8 games in a row has held Messi goaless as an example), chips in occasionally offensively also scoring the CL winner in 2017, or assists like the other night's Super Cup win. Best DM in the world.

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    Is Kaye playing tonight? Can't wait for this one. Only issue is my son works until 5 so I might miss the 5:18 train west and have to catch the next one leaving me less pre game time.

    Here's to 3 big points...if we can get them, the playoffs become a real possibility. Vamos!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcoe15 View Post
    Will the game be streamed somewheres? My satellite receiver quit on me today, and I won't get a new one in for 2-3 business days!
    Usually one or two stream pop-up here closer to kickoff. The game is also on tsn go and if you subscribe to the tsn via a tv provider, you should have access.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    He played pretty high up in the midfield diamond in 2015.

    5 goals, 6 assists

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23sC_Zf8Wg
    Wow. How beautiful does that north end look compared to what we have now

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    Our win probability has decreased by 5% in the last hour
    okay whos not playing? Insigne??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    Fully agreed. And his stats are very inflated with the rinky dink sideways and back passes. Very low risk, very low reward.

    He is not an offensive threat at all. So then is he is truly a DM, then we can judge his contributions defensively. We again are one of the worst goals aginst sides in all of mls. Not all Mike's fault, but he plays 90 minutes and his role as a DM is to solidify the D..... And as Section 223 pointed out, this year alone Mike has been directly responsible for 7 goals against due to his mistakes. And how many more indirectly? I.e second goal the other night getting beat on the header by Romney or first goal, not breaking up the play.

    Anyways, its a mute point, Mike is signed to end of next year and we don't have and won't bring in his replacement.
    Nobody calls him Mike.
    That's all I'll say about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redpunkfiddle View Post
    Nobody calls him Mike.
    Exactly.

    And he’s not a defensive midfielder. He hasn’t played as primarily a DM since about 2017. We’ve played with two-way number eights pretty much ever since then. Right now, they trade either one back, two forward or vice-versa throughout the game, and rotate as a triangle when one of them is caught out of position.

    He’s not a DM, so claiming he’s not anchoring the back line is a false equivalency.

    It’s a bit of a moot point, that’s true. It is not, judging by how some people won’t shut the fuck up about it, a mute point.
    Last edited by jloome; 08-13-2022 at 03:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    Our win probability has decreased by 5% in the last hour
    okay whos not playing? Insigne??
    Suspect it’s that Eryk Williamson is cleared to play for Portland. He was questionable after a hammy earlier in the week. They’re about two-thirds more likely to win when he’s in the lineup.

    Just guessing though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Suspect it’s that Eryk Williamson is cleared to play for Portland. He was questionable after a hammy earlier in the week. They’re about two-thirds more likely to win when he’s in the lineup.

    Just guessing though.
    A good guess. Theyíve been markedly better when he and Blanco play together. Should be a very tough match all around.

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    Williamson on the bench.

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    Big happy crowd. The difference between the people going to Pitbull at the amphitheatre & TFC is only really the lack of red going on to Molson.

    TFC is back baby.

    Of course might lose tonight but it is so good to be among people having fun again.

 

 

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