TFC 2022 player in-season roster discussion

[Smokecell]

Notes on Manning’s Incoming Signings without Bezbatchenko*

DPs - Of the 7 DPs signed by Manning sans Bezbatchenko (Pozuelo, Altidore, Piatti, Soteldo, Salcedo, Insigne, Bernadeschi) only Salcedo has ever been in the 18 for the first match of the season or summer window. Only Pozuelo and Altidore have lasted more than a season. In the year they were signed (or re-signed) none participated in the start of pre-season and only Salcedo was present for any part of pre-season. Insigne and Bernadeschi are the only signings which remain on the roster.^

TAM^^ - Of the 6 TAM signings by Manning sans Bezbatchenko (Gonzalez, Gallardo, Benezet, Lawrence, Jimenez, Criscito) only Jimenez and Criscito have been in the 18 for the first match of the season or summer window. Only Gonzalez and Gallardo have lasted more than a season. In the year they were signed, none participated in the start of pre-season and only Jimenez was present for any part of pre-season. Jimenez and Criscito are the only signings which remain on the roster.^

Notable - Former TAM player Auro’s option was exercised at the end of 2021 before he was loaned to Brazil months later. The MLSPA 2022 Guide shows TFC on the hook for 400k in salary for Auro.

*Note on Recorded Info: Time period captured was from Bezbatchenko’s departure (04/01/2019) to present, with the assumption that Bernadeschi signs as a DP.

^Note on 2022 signings: Jimenez, Salcedo, Insigne, Criscito and Bernadeschi were all signed in 2022.

^^Note on TAM Scope: Exercising of contract options was not counted as re-signings. However, inclusion of these would mean counting Mavinga (2019) and Osorio (2021) as TAM signings.

This is a quality post. Thank you sir.

[Richard]

Notes on Manning’s Incoming Signings without Bezbatchenko*

DPs - Of the 7 DPs signed by Manning sans Bezbatchenko (Pozuelo, Altidore, Piatti, Soteldo, Salcedo, Insigne, Bernadeschi) only Salcedo has ever been in the 18 for the first match of the season or summer window. Only Pozuelo and Altidore have lasted more than a season. In the year they were signed (or re-signed) none participated in the start of pre-season and only Salcedo was present for any part of pre-season. Insigne and Bernadeschi are the only signings which remain on the roster.^

TAM^^ - Of the 6 TAM signings by Manning sans Bezbatchenko (Gonzalez, Gallardo, Benezet, Lawrence, Jimenez, Criscito) only Jimenez and Criscito have been in the 18 for the first match of the season or summer window. Only Gonzalez and Gallardo have lasted more than a season. In the year they were signed, none participated in the start of pre-season and only Jimenez was present for any part of pre-season. Jimenez and Criscito are the only signings which remain on the roster.^

Notable - Former TAM player Auro’s option was exercised at the end of 2021 before he was loaned to Brazil months later. The MLSPA 2022 Guide shows TFC on the hook for 400k in salary for Auro.

*Note on Recorded Info: Time period captured was from Bezbatchenko’s departure (04/01/2019) to present, with the assumption that Bernadeschi signs as a DP.

^Note on 2022 signings: Jimenez, Salcedo, Insigne, Criscito and Bernadeschi were all signed in 2022.

^^Note on TAM Scope: Exercising of contract options was not counted as re-signings. However, inclusion of these would mean counting Mavinga (2019) and Osorio (2021) as TAM signings.

Sure Manning should be blamed for falling asleep at the wheel, but a lot of this is the fault of the man with a 500 page plan(Curtis).

[Ultra & Proud]

Notes on Manning’s Incoming Signings without Bezbatchenko*

DPs - Of the 7 DPs signed by Manning sans Bezbatchenko (Pozuelo, Altidore, Piatti, Soteldo, Salcedo, Insigne, Bernadeschi) only Salcedo has ever been in the 18 for the first match of the season or summer window. Only Pozuelo and Altidore have lasted more than a season. In the year they were signed (or re-signed) none participated in the start of pre-season and only Salcedo was present for any part of pre-season. Insigne and Bernadeschi are the only signings which remain on the roster.^

TAM^^ - Of the 6 TAM signings by Manning sans Bezbatchenko (Gonzalez, Gallardo, Benezet, Lawrence, Jimenez, Criscito) only Jimenez and Criscito have been in the 18 for the first match of the season or summer window. Only Gonzalez and Gallardo have lasted more than a season. In the year they were signed, none participated in the start of pre-season and only Jimenez was present for any part of pre-season. Jimenez and Criscito are the only signings which remain on the roster.^

You're not accounting for Vanney's influence on some of these deals. Benezet was a Vanney choice as was Piatti if I remember correctly. Pozuelo might have been his too as well as Omar. Also, a chunk of this period the decisions were made by Curtis much like Bez so if you don't count Manning with Bez then you shouldn't count him with Curtis.

Not defending Manning as he made the biggest mistake at TFC in a decade by hiring Curtis and then going off into MLSE land to do whatever they do there.

Also Auro was on $388.5K in 2021 so that's not TAM level but I guess he is still counting as a cap hit as well technically could recall him.

[portu]

You're not accounting for Vanney's influence on some of these deals. Benezet was a Vanney choice as was Piatti if I remember correctly. Pozuelo might have been his too as well as Omar. Also, a chunk of this period the decisions were made by Curtis much like Bez so if you don't count Manning with Bez then you shouldn't count him with Curtis.

Not defending Manning as he made the biggest mistake at TFC in a decade by hiring Curtis and then going off into MLSE land to do whatever they do there.

Also Auro was on $388.5K in 2021 so that's not TAM level but I guess he is still counting as a cap hit as well technically could recall him.

Honestly to account for nuance in all of this, you’d need 2 pages minimum and to not make poor assumptions that lead to off-base trains of thought you’d need insight only granted by being in the front office.

Manning is ultimately accountable for his GM, so that’s why this is presented factually without opinion (e.g., looks good that Gonzalez and Gallardo lasted a while but we all know that Gallardo was a bust - I don’t need to insert my opinion). Similarly, we all know Vanney had the Benezet connect, but Manning was still where the buck stopped during that period.

Auro bit was added because I had never realized we were still eating his salary and we did/do not have a GM for both the option exercised and loan.

[Ultra & Proud]

Honestly to account for nuance in all of this, you’d need 2 pages minimum and to not make poor assumptions that lead to off-base trains of thought you’d need insight only granted by being in the front office.

Manning is ultimately accountable for his GM, so that’s why this is presented factually without opinion (e.g., looks good that Gonzalez and Gallardo lasted a while but we all know that Gallardo was a bust - I don’t need to insert my opinion). Similarly, we all know Vanney had the Benezet connect, but Manning was still where the buck stopped during that period.

Auro bit was added because I had never realized we were still eating his salary and we did/do not have a GM for both the option exercised and loan.

I don't think we're eating Auro's salary but still his cap hit unless we are picking up a portion but that's never been mentioned.

And yes Manning is ultimately responsible for everything but it seems he is the putting trust in his GM types and then doing his other MLSE stuff and obviously that didn't work out. He did admit that after the Curtis fiasco but I have a feeling we're moving back into that with Bob. Not this season or maybe next but I bet we see Manning fade back into the depths of MLSE and Bob transition into that controlling role in a couple years.

[portu]

I don't think we're eating Auro's salary but still his cap hit unless we are picking up a portion but that's never been mentioned.

And yes Manning is ultimately responsible for everything but it seems he is the putting trust in his GM types and then doing his other MLSE stuff and obviously that didn't work out. He did admit that after the Curtis fiasco but I have a feeling we're moving back into that with Bob. Not this season or maybe next but I bet we see Manning fade back into the depths of MLSE and Bob transition into that controlling role in a couple years.

Accountability is accountability.

The degree of his accountability is where that nuance lies. I’d honestly really enjoy having the level of insight where I could write a proper report-level analysis of transfer activity and roster management since Bez joined (for my personal interest, if anything). However, any effort towards that would be so blind and useless because of the necessary assumptions.

[Ultra & Proud]

I’d honestly really enjoy having the level of insight where I could write a proper report-level analysis of transfer activity and roster management since Bez joined (for my personal interest, if anything). However, any effort towards that would be so blind and useless because of the necessary assumptions.

The only thing you can do is find correlation between his time at the Crew and here. There are similarities especially with mismanaging cap space post MLS Cup win. One thing we always had problems with in regard to Bez was cap space post 2017. Took until this year to get that under control and we still have a few lingering contracts that were elevated under Bez's watch (Bono) but some of the 2018/19/20 issues were down to inadequate cap space and too much money tied up in certain areas.

[portu]

Notes on Manning’s Incoming Signings without Bezbatchenko*

DPs - Of the 7 DPs signed by Manning sans Bezbatchenko (Pozuelo, Altidore, Piatti, Soteldo, Salcedo, Insigne, Bernadeschi) only Salcedo has ever been in the 18 for the first match of the season or summer window. Only Pozuelo and Altidore have lasted more than a season. In the year they were signed (or re-signed) none participated in the start of pre-season and only Salcedo was present for any part of pre-season. Insigne and Bernadeschi are the only signings which remain on the roster.^

TAM^^ - Of the 7 TAM signings by Manning sans Bezbatchenko (Gonzalez, Gallardo, Benezet, Lawrence, Jimenez, Criscito, Kaye) only Jimenez and Criscito have been in the 18 for the first match of the season or summer window. Only Gonzalez and Gallardo have lasted more than a season. In the year they were signed, none participated in the start of pre-season and only Jimenez was present for any part of pre-season. Jimenez, Criscito and Kaye are the only signings which remain on the roster.^

Notable - Former TAM player Auro’s option was exercised at the end of 2021 before he was loaned to Brazil months later. The MLSPA 2022 Guide shows TFC on the hook for 400k in salary for Auro.

*Note on Recorded Info: Time period captured was from Bezbatchenko’s departure (04/01/2019) to present, with the assumption that Bernadeschi signs as a DP.

^Note on 2022 signings: Jimenez, Salcedo, Insigne, Criscito, Kaye and Bernadeschi were all signed in 2022.

^^Note on TAM Scope: Exercising of contract options was not counted as re-signings. However, inclusion of these would mean counting Mavinga (2019) and Osorio (2021) as TAM signings.

The primary goal of looking into this was to see if I was crazy for thinking we take forever with impact-level signings. Quickly it became clear that we rarely if ever get a guy into the 18 for MLS play (let alone CCL) at first possible instance. When I began to see the trend of the signing dates, it was clear that we also don’t even get guys in for pre-season so that they can gel with the team and acclimate.

In fact, the last time a TAM-level guy was in the 18 for the 1st MLS match was Vazquez in 2017 (came off the bench). Before that was Will Johnson in 2016 (started).

An interesting trend from 2015-2017 was that important guys were signed in time for at least part of pre-season and the first match. Giovinco, Altidore, Moor, Johnson, Beitashour, Vazquez, Mavinga (out with a knock for game 1) were all critical members for the best seasons this club has ever had. 2015, 2016 and 2017 represent the 5th, 3rd and 1st spots for PPG in club history. 2020 (2nd best) had almost no major turnover which meant that everyone was together for a full pre-season. 2019 (4th best) was barely better than the 2015 year (difference of +.03 PPG) where Kantari/Perquis/Williams/Jackson were regular backline fixtures. (PPG is a better indicator for performance than playoff performance because of sample size.)

[ensco]

^I really don't think Manning has been in charge of anything for a year. Certainly not since the day the Insigne discussions were leaked. (He is simply not a guy who woke one day and decided: I have got to recommend spending $75M on a Lorenzo Insigne)

I think Manning has a contract and it makes more sense for Larry to keep him around as a "beard", given that nobody wants to say the quiet part out loud, that the real signing and decision making all belongs to Bob (and I assume Michael in some sense).

With Larry driving, and of course being final vote, on the Italian business.

[portu]

The only thing you can do is find correlation between his time at the Crew and here. There are similarities especially with mismanaging cap space post MLS Cup win. One thing we always had problems with in regard to Bez was cap space post 2017. Took until this year to get that under control and we still have a few lingering contracts that were elevated under Bez's watch (Bono) but some of the 2018/19/20 issues were down to inadequate cap space and too much money tied up in certain areas.

It’s really impossible to assess roster management in this league without seeing the terms of deals (I.e., salary escalation and option years). No one even knew Jozy had an option year until the buy out stuff came to a head.

[portu]

^I really don't think Manning has been in charge of anything for a year. Certainly not since the day the Insigne discussions were leaked. (He is simply not a guy who woke one day and decided: I have got to recommend spending $75M on a Lorenzo Insigne)

I think Manning has a contract and it makes more sense for Larry to keep him around as a "beard", given that nobody wants to say the quiet part out loud, that the real signing and decision making all belongs to Bob (and I assume Michael in some sense).

With Larry driving, and of course being final vote, on the Italian business.

To the point about nuance and accountability, we know for a fact the buck stops with Manning, but we can only speculate on Bob’s involvement.

[ensco]

To the point about nuance and accountability, we know for a fact the buck stops with Manning, but we can only speculate on Bob’s involvement.

I won't belabour the point, of course you are right about the org chart. I'd just say two things:

- they kept Curtis around long after he had ceased to have decision making power
- we had a long period of watching Manning 2015-21, and you have to decide for yourself whether he would be a guy supposedly driving a $100M spend on two DPs.

Your general points about dysfunction and signings, I would co-sign wholeheartedly

[portu]

I won't belabour the point, of course you are right about the org chart. I'd just say two things:

- they kept Curtis around long after he had ceased to have decision making power
- we had a long period of watching Manning 2015-21, and you have to decide for yourself whether he would be a guy supposedly driving a $100M spend on two DPs.

Your general points about dysfunction and signings, I would co-sign wholeheartedly

I see your points absolutely. I also think the Manning stuff is curious still. Because the period of dysfunction really starts in 2018. Can you attribute everything to Manning? Only really to the point of this being super systemic. This actually points to issues in the function of the FO. Would be interesting to know what changed around 2017-2019 beyond Bez.

The FO clearly became drastically more inefficient post-Cup win.

[noxx98]

I won't belabour the point, of course you are right about the org chart. I'd just say two things:

- they kept Curtis around long after he had ceased to have decision making power
- we had a long period of watching Manning 2015-21, and you have to decide for yourself whether he would be a guy supposedly driving a $100M spend on two DPs.

Your general points about dysfunction and signings, I would co-sign wholeheartedly

We committed $10 or $11M on a transfer fee for Pozuelo and then nearly $20M in salary for Poz. Plus re-upping Jozy at $4M/year, a $6M fee for Soteldo + wages. Piatti was really the only low end DP we've signed. It's not exactly $100M on two DPs, but TFC has consistently spent a ton on DPs. Larry T may be the driving force behind it, but I don't see a reason to believe that Bill isn't heavily involved in setting some of these plans and carrying out the major negotiations (even if D'Amico is brokering the Italian deals).

[ag futbol]

Manning is ultimately accountable for his GM, so that’s why this is presented factually without opinion

Yep.

Manning may or may not have his hands dirty with the signings but he’s ultimately responsible for how things go for the club.

My big picture thought is at best have been under-performers. At worst, I’d say we were bullshit lucky and rode the performances of a few players in our better recent years (post-2017) and that might suggest gross mismanagement.

[JoesphNdo]

I see your points absolutely. I also think the Manning stuff is curious still. Because the period of dysfunction really starts in 2018. Can you attribute everything to Manning? Only really to the point of this being super systemic. This actually points to issues in the function of the FO. Would be interesting to know what changed around 2017-2019 beyond Bez.

The FO clearly became drastically more inefficient post-Cup win.

I honestly think the main thing that changed is just simply losing a GM who was competent and not replacing them with anyone with any level of competency to make good decisions in this league

To Enscos point, there's a couple of things that I think point to the Bradleys running the show now

1 The full backs. We re-up on Auro, then inexplicably, jettison both of our full backs with not a single warm body left to occupy the position. That speaks to a sudden change in planning, and one based not on strategy but on a belief (right or wrong) that they had personality issues. That speaks to a change in management and, given timing meaning it'd be difficult for Bob to so quickly make such a drastic call, influence from Michael

2 Letting our star play end up with 6 months left on his contact. Should never happen, either reup or move on. Most likely outcome is previous management thought 'yeah he's our best player, ofc we'll keep him' and then suddenly Bob was in and we wanted rid. So we lose a huge asset for a bag of peanuts in the end

We'll never know, but both imply a moving of power to at least one of the Bradleys

[ensco]

I see your points absolutely. I also think the Manning stuff is curious still. Because the period of dysfunction really starts in 2018. Can you attribute everything to Manning? Only really to the point of this being super systemic. This actually points to issues in the function of the FO. Would be interesting to know what changed around 2017-2019 beyond Bez.

The FO clearly became drastically more inefficient post-Cup win.

I think Manning had less meaningful things to do 2015-2017. Vazquez really came in via the league office, he wasn't a scouting discovery. Drew Moor, that was great. Of course Manning didn't screw it up in that era, I give him massive credit for that, not easy to just sit there. But Leiweke cooked the meal, Manning got to eat it.

But since the day they swapped Beitashour for van der Wiel, they really haven't gotten anything right. The run to the cup in the second half of 2019 was a fluke and blinded us (well me, anyway)

[ensco]

We committed $10 or $11M on a transfer fee for Pozuelo and then nearly $20M in salary for Poz. Plus re-upping Jozy at $4M/year, a $6M fee for Soteldo + wages. Piatti was really the only low end DP we've signed. It's not exactly $100M on two DPs, but TFC has consistently spent a ton on DPs. Larry T may be the driving force behind it, but I don't see a reason to believe that Bill isn't heavily involved in setting some of these plans and carrying out the major negotiations (even if D'Amico is brokering the Italian deals).

I am speaking about really Lorenzo (and Federico). I personally don't believe signing them - or anybody at that kind of price - was Manning's idea.

Just my $0.02

[Oldtimer]

Notes on Manning’s Incoming Signings without Bezbatchenko*

DPs - Of the 7 DPs signed by Manning sans Bezbatchenko (Pozuelo, Altidore, Piatti, Soteldo, Salcedo, Insigne, Bernadeschi) only Salcedo has ever been in the 18 for the first match of the season or summer window. Only Pozuelo and Altidore have lasted more than a season. In the year they were signed (or re-signed) none participated in the start of pre-season and only Salcedo was present for any part of pre-season. Insigne and Bernadeschi are the only signings which remain on the roster.^

TAM^^ - Of the 7 TAM signings by Manning sans Bezbatchenko (Gonzalez, Gallardo, Benezet, Lawrence, Jimenez, Criscito, Kaye) only Jimenez and Criscito have been in the 18 for the first match of the season or summer window. Only Gonzalez and Gallardo have lasted more than a season. In the year they were signed, none participated in the start of pre-season and only Jimenez was present for any part of pre-season. Jimenez, Criscito and Kaye are the only signings which remain on the roster.^

Notable - Former TAM player Auro’s option was exercised at the end of 2021 before he was loaned to Brazil months later. The MLSPA 2022 Guide shows TFC on the hook for 400k in salary for Auro.

*Note on Recorded Info: Time period captured was from Bezbatchenko’s departure (04/01/2019) to present, with the assumption that Bernadeschi signs as a DP.

^Note on 2022 signings: Jimenez, Salcedo, Insigne, Criscito, Kaye and Bernadeschi were all signed in 2022.

^^Note on TAM Scope: Exercising of contract options was not counted as re-signings. However, inclusion of these would mean counting Mavinga (2019) and Osorio (2021) as TAM signings.

Clearly Manning needs a good GM. Hopefully Bradley can be that.

[Ultra & Proud]

The primary goal of looking into this was to see if I was crazy for thinking we take forever with impact-level signings. Quickly it became clear that we rarely if ever get a guy into the 18 for MLS play (let alone CCL) at first possible instance. When I began to see the trend of the signing dates, it was clear that we also don’t even get guys in for pre-season so that they can gel with the team and acclimate.

This isn't completely a TFC thing but a MLS thing. That's the problem with the timing of our season and our windows. Getting a player straight from their leagues and run straight into July or even February means they get no rest and are usually carrying knocks. In our case we spend large on DPs comparitively to some other ones and have seen how it goes when you sign one that breaks easy & often so I think our management is gunshy to toss guys in right away, especially so when they are top 5 MLS salary type players.

[Oldtimer]

Not defending Manning as he made the biggest mistake at TFC in a decade by hiring Curtis and then going off into MLSE land to do whatever they do there.

Almost on the level of Tom Anselmi hiring Mo Johnston in year 1. Almost, but not quite. Set TFC back by a few years for sure.

[Ultra & Proud]

I accept Mo because we were brand new and nobody in MLSE knew anything about MLS or football so since MLS HQ recommended Mo it seemed like the right thing to do.

My biggest comparison to Curtis' buffoonery is hiring Klinnsman to pick out Winter and change everything to a system that didn't work and then trade about 60 players in 18 months to get even worse players and then Marriner. The only positive to that reign was that we hit rock bottom and it led to a house cleaning and the Lieweke era.

[Canary10]

I am speaking about really Lorenzo (and Federico). I personally don't believe signing them - or anybody at that kind of price - was Manning's idea.

Just my $0.02

I actually think it was his idea. I think he knew we needed a shot in the arm, especially after the provincialism of Curtis, looked back for an example of what worked well in the past which, from both a team results and season tickets perspective, was Sebastian Giovinco. Then did just as he said he did, he set out using Transfermarkt to find the next Giovinco.

[los sonadores]

Almost on the level of Tom Anselmi hiring Mo Johnston in year 1. Almost, but not quite. Set TFC back by a few years for sure.

Glad those days are over. Part of it is the increase in spending and quality in the league overall. Even when we’re playing poorly (the last few seasons) it’s easier to watch. I took a few people to the SJ match, non MLS watchers and their first Toronto game and it wasn’t an embarrassment despite both teams being at the bottom of the table.

(And not that the stupidity and mismanagement of the Curtis period was easy to stomach but the football overall is so much better than it was in the early years.)

[los sonadores]

I accept Mo because we were brand new and nobody in MLSE knew anything about MLS or football so since MLS HQ recommended Mo it seemed like the right thing to do.

My biggest comparison to Curtis' buffoonery is hiring Klinnsman to pick out Winter and change everything to a system that didn't work and then trade about 60 players in 18 months to get even worse players and then Marriner. The only positive to that reign was that we hit rock bottom and it led to a house cleaning and the Lieweke era.

It was unacceptable that no one in our head office knew anything about football for many years… even after running a football club for many years.

[Yuushalinsky]

Glad those days are over. Part of it is the increase in spending and quality in the league overall. Even when we’re playing poorly (the last few seasons) it’s easier to watch. I took a few people to the SJ match, non MLS watchers and their first Toronto game and it wasn’t an embarrassment despite both teams being at the bottom of the table.

bottom of the table, TFC had 0 DPs, San Jose's coach literally hated the team...

Manning deserves a LOT of criticism. A LOT. But it takes more than one to tango and many of his past mistakes were compounded by the man with a foot long plan.

[Yuushalinsky]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/Total_TFC/status/1546910370593476609

There's a lot you can criticize about his aggressive play, but not about his dedication to the team. I wish honestly that we could have kept him to see what he could have done with a competent set of LBs/RBs, but we get a do-over on the DP slot.

[los sonadores]

bottom of the table, TFC had 0 DPs, San Jose's coach literally hated the team...

Manning deserves a LOT of criticism. A LOT. But it takes more than one to tango and many of his past mistakes were compounded by the man with a foot long plan.

Curtis was a mess and I’m often not high on Manning’s decision making but I’m making a different point. Did you follow the club during the first ten years?

[Canary10]

It was unacceptable that no one in our head office knew anything about football for many years… even after running a football club for many years.

Richard Peddie on giving TFC to Tom Anselmi: "a nice little job to learn stuff by."

[Yuushalinsky]

Curtis was a mess and I’m often not high on Manning’s decision making but I’m making a different point. Did you follow the club during the first ten years?

I hopped on the wagon during Defoe years - so kinda?