TFC 2022 player in-season roster discussion

[JoesphNdo]

It's probably not as shit as it could be as the Italians won't care, the youth squad are just happy to be here, and the guys who it would bother most are almost all out the door.

However, this dynamic could affect the ability of the team to sign free agent MLSers because those are the guys who might not want to walk into a situation lke that. I wouldn't.

Why are we blanket assuming huge parts of our squad would have no issue with this? I'd imagine the Italians would have a problem with anything considered completely unprofessional (The idea of this happening at a big European club...), and the youth would be on egg shells with a captain who is a king maker in the team who can cause players to be removed based on personal opinion

And this is backed up by what we've seen in the field, that is not a cohesive team rallying behind their coach. The body language is bad, the performance and cohesion is bad, and this may be a factor

[Hala Hrvatska]

Our asset management, specifically but not limited to the full backs, are beyond defending. The Lawrence one is always the one that worried me. If Bob decided to kick Lawrence out based on attitude having never met the player then it implies to me that somebody (I mean realistically, only could be his son) has a disproportionate amount of power in the dressing room to make huge calls based on personal interpretation and that is not healthy

Agreed. And that's what really scares me. He also is the captain still somehow.

I strongly suspect guys (other than the Italians) walk around on eggshells in the dressing room around MB.

[Hala Hrvatska]

Well first Bono is terrible. No way around that.

As for our midfield, it's bad. Not going to work as a 3 man outfit with MB there. It's not doable. This year there wasn't any better options available (affordable?) but next year there better be.

As for MB not wanting Auro or Lawrence? Probably. I think Auro probably did himself in by hanging with Soteldo in Florida. I didn't mind Auro here but he also wasn't great. For me, I thought Lawrence was shit. Nobody could watch that last season and say he lived up to his billing. No matter what, benefit of doubt or not, the eye test shows he wasn't up to or into it and there's no need for that.

Manning should also be accountable for the continued bad D but this season they get a pass as it's a rebuild and nobody was stupid enough to take on Bono. However, the GK recruitment this offseason is the most important task of management in years. They blow this or go lazy (resign Bono/settle on Gavran & Ranjitsingh) and that's it for Manning & BB. We will have a new regime in 2024.

Well said.

[Ultra & Proud]

Why are we blanket assuming huge parts of our squad would have no issue with this? I'd imagine the Italians would have a problem with anything considered completely unprofessional (The idea of this happening at a big European club...), and the youth would be on egg shells with a captain who is a king maker in the team who can cause players to be removed based on personal opinion

And this is backed up by what we've seen in the field, that is not a cohesive team rallying behind their coach. The body language is bad, the performance and cohesion is bad, and this may be a factor

I never said no issue, I said not as bad as it could be due to the demographics of the room. That would never fly in a locker room with a bunch of career MLSers. No matter what though it's not changing. BB will be here next year and MB will probably play 98% of the season's minutes and then retire. So we will see how it shakes out. If it is happening then we'll fail next season too and there will be whole new management team in for 2024 and we can rebuild again leading up to 2026.

[Section 223]

you seem to be giving the benefit of doubt to TFC management and no one else- from my perspective -if manning can brag about his cup finals, shields and whatever else - he should also be held accountable for having 3 seasons of most goals against scored.

I believe we refer to these people as fanatics, the Lawrence situation is a clear indication of the ineptitude of Bob Bradley or as a few have mentioned the pride of Bob and his son Michael

[ag futbol]

I never said no issue, I said not as bad as it could be due to the demographics of the room. That would never fly in a locker room with a bunch of career MLSers. No matter what though it's not changing. BB will be here next year and MB will probably play 98% of the season's minutes and then retire. So we will see how it shakes out. If it is happening then we'll fail next season too and there will be whole new management team in for 2024 and we can rebuild again leading up to 2026.

The real shame in that is we waste two prime years of the best player in MLS. Pretty unforgivable.

[Section 223]

The real shame in that is we waste two prime years of the best player in MLS. Pretty unforgivable.

This as fans should be the most concerning

[JoesphNdo]

The real shame in that is we waste two prime years of the best player in MLS. Pretty unforgivable.

We also, if that happens, once again, take MLSEs money and absolutely light it on fire. They can't keep just throwing tens of millions against a team that can't even make the play offs and eventually they will ask what they have to show for it. We need to eventually actually become an even halfway competent team

[Ultra & Proud]

The real shame in that is we waste two prime years of the best player in MLS. Pretty unforgivable.

Could be four years if this chapter fails.

[jloome]

Our asset management, specifically but not limited to the full backs, are beyond defending. The Lawrence one is always the one that worried me. If Bob decided to kick Lawrence out based on attitude having never met the player then it implies to me that somebody (I mean realistically, only could be his son) has a disproportionate amount of power in the dressing room to make huge calls based on personal interpretation and that is not healthy

Or he saw Lawrence get into a loud verbal argument with Jozy in the middle of a game last season and decided "I don't want a guy on my team who defends players from the other team, period." I wouldn't blame him, reactionary as it is. I don't remember what Jozy was fighting with the other guy about but I don't really care. You never dress down your own teammate in the middle of a dispute.

[Ultra & Proud]

Our problem is having too many resources and a general feeling that we can buy our way out of trouble and into winning. Really started under TL but that mindset was around before and it's still here. There's always a belief that a few big buys, some solid TAM signings and we'll be 2017 again and it's the reason we have skunked full seasons. We never develop a solid base and build up from there because we skip rebuilds and constantly retool in hopes of another 2019. We never go all in on the academy because it takes too long to bear fruit. Everything has to be done now, today. In a lot of ways we'd be better off with a cheapo Montreal type owership but it wouldn't fly here because nobody can handle a slow build and nobody would buy tickets without stars and near immediate gratification.

That's why I never complained about the youth overplaying, about dropping guys like Auro and Lawrence, about not jumping into vet signings. This is the first time we appeared to be trying to build a base and then add on top but it probably was by necessity rather than design with the cap so we'll go back to tossing money at whatever can get us a playoff game next season without any thought into 2024 or beyond.

[jloome]

Our problem is having too many resources and a general feeling that we can buy our way out of trouble and into winning. Really started under TL but that mindset was around before and it's still here. There's always a belief that a few big buys, some solid TAM signings and we'll be 2017 again and it's the reason we have skunked full seasons. We never develop a solid base and build up from there because we skip rebuilds and constantly retool in hopes of another 2019. We never go all in on the academy because it takes too long to bear fruit. Everything has to be done now, today. In a lot of ways we'd be better off with a cheapo Montreal type owership but it wouldn't fly here because nobody can handle a slow build and nobody would buy tickets without stars and near immediate gratification.

That's why I never complained about the youth overplaying, about dropping guys like Auro and Lawrence, about not jumping into vet signings. This is the first time we appeared to be trying to build a base and then add on top but it probably was by necessity rather than design with the cap so we'll go back to tossing money at whatever can get us a playoff game next season without any thought into 2024 or beyond.

Big, big offseason. If they have patience to do it properly -- more patience than we have as fans, let's be frank -- they'll take what they've got, fix the glaring problems at keeper and in defense, then strengthen in other areas where players are older.

If they're up to the job, their "want" list at every position will already be substantial.

Again, as with the speculation on BB playing the youths may have condemned him for a problem Curtis and Manning created, it may be premature to assume he just took Michael's recommendations on players and cut people. That might be a bit facile, a bit simplistic, which doesn't seem his MO.

More likely between the missed training sessions, Lawrence's pending legal actions (both for and against) for his multiple side businesses and the dispute on-camera with Jozy last year -- weighed against his poor performances for us -- BB decided now was the time for Lawrence to go, because they were sacrificing all roster flex this season to cleanup.

[JoesphNdo]

Our problem is having too many resources and a general feeling that we can buy our way out of trouble and into winning. Really started under TL but that mindset was around before and it's still here. There's always a belief that a few big buys, some solid TAM signings and we'll be 2017 again and it's the reason we have skunked full seasons. We never develop a solid base and build up from there because we skip rebuilds and constantly retool in hopes of another 2019. We never go all in on the academy because it takes too long to bear fruit. Everything has to be done now, today. In a lot of ways we'd be better off with a cheapo Montreal type owership but it wouldn't fly here because nobody can handle a slow build and nobody would buy tickets without stars and near immediate gratification.

That's why I never complained about the youth overplaying, about dropping guys like Auro and Lawrence, about not jumping into vet signings. This is the first time we appeared to be trying to build a base and then add on top but it probably was by necessity rather than design with the cap so we'll go back to tossing money at whatever can get us a playoff game next season without any thought into 2024 or beyond.

I don't know that that's the problem, I think our problem is we've had only one GM who even had the slightest clue how to manage the salary cap and actually put together a full squad. We've just made objectively poor decisions in a league like MLS - Reupping a completely spent Jozy twice, constantly jettisoning players but still paying them, completely overpaying for players like MAK (This is the epitome of a short term gain, long term loss move), just decisions that would be okay if we had this $$ advantage in Europe but make absolutely no sense with MLS salary rules. I think people are fine with a rebuild, they're not fine with consistent incompetent decision making. Next season may be where we turn it around, but so far nothing we've seen has given me that confidence, but I'll wait and see.

I'm also not sure I can agree with your assessment of our fanbase, who have consistently supported a team who have been an absolute joke far more often than they've even been vaguely competent. If our fans demanded we have marquee signings and win now or else than we'd have nobody in the stands and by the time Tim Leiweke came along we'd already have folded pulling in less crowds than the Argos

[SenorDingDong]

Agreed. And that's what really scares me. He also is the captain still somehow.

I strongly suspect guys (other than the Italians) walk around on eggshells in the dressing room around MB.

You folks really need to start following all these guys on Instagram and such.

Today Quentin posted Insigne and Criscito playing pranks on guys in training and everyone laughing.

The picture you all paint looks very different then what these guys post on Instagram. They all seem to be having fun.

Berna posted one with TLN TV of him learning Toronto slang yesterday. It was hilarious.

[Ultra & Proud]

I don't know that that's the problem, I think our problem is we've had only one GM who even had the slightest clue how to manage the salary cap and actually put together a full squad.

Which GM was that? Bez? The guy who resigned Bono for a half decade at a top 5 salary at his position? The guy who signed VDW and dumped Beita? The guy that said Aketxe was the "guy" to transition us to the future? The guy who traded Hasler (who was good) to the Fire for Bakero who was hopeless.

We had a good run under him but that was from the stars aligning with a crop of good DPs and career years from Zavaleta, Bono, & Mavinga.

[JoesphNdo]

Which GM was that? Bez? The guy who resigned Bono for a half decade at a top 5 salary at his position? The guy who signed VDW and dumped Beita? The guy that said Aketxe was the "guy" to transition us to the future? The guy who traded Hasler (who was good) to the Fire for Bakero who was hopeless.

We had a good run under him but that was from the stars aligning with a crop of good DPs and career years from Zavaleta, Bono, & Mavinga.

Yeah, the guy who assembled a squad with depth, the only one in our history that wasn't a joke. That one, yeah. Love the cherry picking random things like it counters the actual, tangible results (us before him with him, after him and the cup he won after leaving us with a team with a % of our resources)

For context

2007-2013 - don't make the play offs ONCE.

2013 Bez signs towards the end of the year. 2014-2019, we win an MLS cup and are runners up twice, second in CCL, supporters shield (Considered at the time the best mls team ever assembled, btw), play offs 4 out of 6 seasons

2020-2022 - Make the play offs once, miss out twice and are currently up there for worst team in league history in terms of spend vs points gained (Fairly confident we're the worst by far, but would have to actually check). Meanwhile he's won another cup in this time.

but yeah I guess he signed a couple of players who didn't work out so he's a hack.

[Hala Hrvatska]

You folks really need to start following all these guys on Instagram and such.

Today Quentin posted Insigne and Criscito playing pranks on guys in training and everyone laughing.

The picture you all paint looks very different then what these guys post on Instagram. They all seem to be having fun.

Berna posted one with TLN TV of him learning Toronto slang yesterday. It was hilarious.

I said everyone but the Italians...they are having fun, and 2 of 3 are getting paid mega bucks. They played well and did their part. I am a big fan of all three no doubt. They could care less what MB and BB say/do this year as its done. Next year, I strongly suspect if the losing continues, they being the competitors that they are, and the project promised to them (i.e winning), will go over both's heads and demand change. An Italian mutiny if you will.

MAK too is safe and no worries for him, he BB's signing...we gave an arm and a leg for him...hope he comes good but colour me very unimpressed with what I have seen of him so far.

[Hala Hrvatska]

Yeah, the guy who assembled a squad with depth, the only one in our history that wasn't a joke. That one, yeah. Love the cherry picking random things like it counters the actual, tangible results (us before him with him, after him and the cup he won after leaving us with a team with a % of our resources)

For context

2007-2014 - don't make the play offs ONCE.

2013 Bez signs towards the end of the year. 2014-2019, we win an MLS cup and are runners up twice, second in CCL, supporters shield, play offs 4 out of 6 seasons

2020-2022 - Make the play offs once, miss out twice and are currently up there for worst team in league history in terms of spend vs points gained (Fairly confident we're the worst by far, but would have to actually check). Meanwhile he's won another cup in this time.

but yeah I guess he signed a couple of players who didn't work out so he's a hack.

Spot on. And then Bez went to Columbus and won another.

He knows what he is doing.

[JoesphNdo]

Spot on. And then Bez went to Columbus and won another.

He knows what he is doing.

For sure. I'm happy to hear counter arguments, as nobody is perfect and certainly Bez isn't either

But that argument better be based on results and not 'yeah but he made some signings while we were assembling the best squad in mls history and winning the shield and cup that weren't good...' because you can make that argument against Alex Ferguson (He signed people like Djemba Djemba and David Bellion for christ sake, and broke a club record signing Veron, so he's obviously a bad manager, right!?)

[Ultra & Proud]

For context

2007-2013 - don't make the play offs ONCE.

2013 Bez signs towards the end of the year. 2014-2019, we win an MLS cup and are runners up twice, second in CCL, supporters shield (Considered at the time the best mls team ever assembled, btw), play offs 4 out of 6 seasons

2020-2022 - Make the play offs once, miss out twice and are currently up there for worst team in league history in terms of spend vs points gained (Fairly confident we're the worst by far, but would have to actually check). Meanwhile he's won another cup in this time.

but yeah I guess he signed a couple of players who didn't work out so he's a hack.

2019 he wasn't the GM for. That was mighty Curtis. Bez left Jan 4th 2019 and Curtis took over that season for our playoff run (remember him working the Poz delayed deal).

But yes, we were good under Bez but he fell into luck with TL getting MLSE to flash out on Giovinco, Jozy, and MB. None of them were Bez pick ups. Even Mavinga was a Vanney connect as was Cheyrou.

Credit where it's due but it's not like he single handedly built us up. He was in the right place at the right time. Just like he was in Columbus. Couple tinkering deals and they had their run but it was also the weird 2020 season that they won in. Now his contract work at Columbus has them in a bit of mess as well.

[JoesphNdo]

2019 he wasn't the GM for. That was mighty Curtis. Bez left Jan 4th 2019 and Curtis took over that season for our playoff run (remember him working the Poz delayed deal).

But yes, we were good under Bez but he fell into luck with TL getting MLSE to flash out on Giovinco, Jozy, and MB. None of them were Bez pick ups. Even Mavinga was a Vanney connect as was Cheyrou.

Credit where it's due but it's not like he single handedly built us up. He was in the right place at the right time. Just like he was in Columbus. Couple tinkering deals and they had their run but it was also the weird 2020 season that they won in. Now his contract work at Columbus has them in a bit of mess as well.

My bad on 2019, though that was still the bones of his

But two things. Columbus are a mess? An under resourced team very much in play off contention is your definition of mess? Is he supposed to win the cup every year there...? That's a mess? Wtf are we then? Didn't they finish like near the bottom the season before he joined? That's right place right time? These are such stretches dhalsim would be proud

And it's grossly simplistic to say he lucked into some DPs. If big money DPs were enough than we'd be consistently good but yeah, refer to my historical results post for that one

[ag futbol]

I think Bez is a middle of the road GM that was given several large budgets which made up for a few shortcomings.

There are better operators out there in MLS

[Mr. Inbetween]

Whatever 'our' problems or mistakes were or are...
We/TFC are more than able to afford them.
From a franchise cost of 10M in circa 2005 to a current Sportico valuation of 705M? 5th in MLS ranking.
That is around a doubling in value circa every three years!
ROI? Stocks & Bonds? 17 years? Suckers Game!
Brah, fookin' crazy... fookin' crazy, brah!

https://www.sportico.com/feature/laf...WAFKN#cxrecs_s

[Mr. Inbetween]

A little levity... some fun with and insight from Fede...

[leedsandTFC]

Whatever 'our' problems or mistakes were or are...
We/TFC are more than able to afford them.
From a franchise cost of 10M in circa 2005 to a current Sportico valuation of 705M? 5th in MLS ranking.
That is around a doubling in value circa every three years!
ROI? Stocks & Bonds? 17 years? Suckers Game!
Brah, fookin' crazy... fookin' crazy, brah!

https://www.sportico.com/feature/laf...WAFKN#cxrecs_s

probably higher next year, this took into account a year where covid ate into TFC income way more than other clubs in MLS (barring vwfc and mtl)

[SenorDingDong]

Great video on Berna today.

BTW - He really likes Manning so all you folks wanting to fire Manning may want to re-think that.

[Yuushalinsky]

Great video on Berna today.

BTW - He really likes Manning so all you folks wanting to fire Manning may want to re-think that.

Berna's worth every penny. With him, I feel like we actually have something of a foundation along with Lorenzo.

[Richard]

Great video on Berna today.

BTW - He really likes Manning so all you folks wanting to fire Manning may want to re-think that.

Well yeah what else is going to say?

"Nah I don't like the director who handed me a multi-million dollar contract, guys a clown".

Common man. Personality ≠ competency(regarding Manning)

[noxx98]

Well yeah what else is going to say?

"Nah I don't like the director who handed me a multi-million dollar contract, guys a clown".

Common man. Personality ≠ competency.

Whether that's how he actually feels, Berna knows how to play the PR game. Complimentary of everyone - management, teammates, Torontonians, family - supportive and encouraging of his team. He knows how to say the right thing at all times (even in his non-native language). I'd imagine when meeting him, he makes you feel like his best friend within 5 minutes.

[Richard]

Whether that's how he actually feels, Berna knows how to play the PR game. Complimentary of everyone - management, teammates, Torontonians, family - supportive and encouraging of his team. He knows how to say the right thing at all times (even in his non-native language). I'd imagine when meeting him, he makes you feel like his best friend within 5 minutes.

Yeah Berna looks like to be a great role model and great person to have in the locker room.

With that said this is still the honey moon period, do not think the Italians will be happy with anything less than success next year. It's in their DNA.