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  1. #5371
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorDingDong View Post
    I'm specifically talking about the 3rd DP spot.This winter should be TAM and Salary roles and yes I think BB and co need to get 5-10 new players from this.

    We can be a super competitive team without filling that 3rd DP spot. But rushing to fill that spot with just anyone doesn't make sense. Dont need another Salcedo.
    Got it. But I want a DP to start the year. July is far too long to wait....that's 1/2 the season gone, then you need to integrate the player, etc.

  2. #5372
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    Last year we were way worse within the league then we are now within the league.

    There were things about Auro people forget - the coming inside instead of tracking people behind him, his penchant to want the perfect thrown in, his preference to pass sideways, his unwillingness to drive to the line.

    Lawrence is foul prone , is not interested in moving forward & isn't all that good in the air.

    Better then what we started with? Maybe. Long term solutions - not so sure.

  3. #5373
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Last year we were way worse within the league then we are now within the league.

    There were things about Auro people forget - the coming inside instead of tracking people behind him, his penchant to want the perfect thrown in, his preference to pass sideways, his unwillingness to drive to the line.

    Lawrence is foul prone , is not interested in moving forward & isn't all that good in the air.

    Better then what we started with? Maybe. Long term solutions - not so sure.
    Last year we didn't have the Italians for half a year. And Jozy was our DP striker...scored like 2 goals or whatever it was.

    Auro and Lawrence aren't great, but certainly better than their replacements were at the first half. And I am not blaming Thompson and Pertuzza, they were never defenders to begin with. And learning on the fly to be a defender and often going up against some Euro or South American DP was always going to be a problem.

  4. #5374
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Last year we were way worse within the league then we are now within the league.

    There were things about Auro people forget - the coming inside instead of tracking people behind him, his penchant to want the perfect thrown in, his preference to pass sideways, his unwillingness to drive to the line.

    Lawrence is foul prone , is not interested in moving forward & isn't all that good in the air.

    Better then what we started with? Maybe. Long term solutions - not so sure.
    This team was not far off playoffs. We are literally a few Bono blunders out of the playoffs in reality.

    Writing off half the season and foregoing all sense of pragmatism was arrogant.

  5. #5375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    Auro and Lawrence aren't great, but certainly better than their replacements were at the first half. And I am not blaming Thompson and Pertuzza, they were never defenders to begin with. A
    Petrasso is a fullback and always was so he was never played out of position. Only Kosi was. And Petrasso is better than Auro as judged by his numbers this year alone and he also has upside. If anything he should be playing more.

    Did any of the kids aside from Nelson truly improve over the course of this season?

    All I saw was a bunch of teenagers getting thrown to the wolves because “development” and lazy recruiting.


    Nelson only actually showed noticeable improvement when surrounded by a serviceable supporting cast. You can’t just toss kids into a match and expect growth.


    Kosi, Shaff, Okello, Priso, Akinola all look like they regressed heavily.
    Akinola would be a stretch to be called thrown to the wolves as he played enough in the past. Obviously his knee injury for the CMNT ruined him for this season. They all to some degree did regress this season but they were all bad to start the season. Kosi actually has gotten worse as the season has gone on. I give Shaff a break as he was tried in a new position. He is still good at what he does.
    Last edited by Ultra & Proud; 09-13-2022 at 02:02 PM.

  6. #5376
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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Criscito said in an interview there’s no real leader in the dressing room, it’s basically MB, Oso and the Italians leading by committee or something.

    MB needs to let go I agree. Such a major conflict of interest for the captain to be the son of the coach. An uncomfortable situation to be a player in that environment I’d imagine on perception alone.
    He wasn’t quoted as saying there is no real leader. He said there are a lot of young players and 5 “senators” (elder statesmen/leaders). He was commenting on how many inexperienced teammates he has and how relatively few vets or mid career players there are. That’s a different thing.

  7. #5377
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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    This team was not far off playoffs. We are literally a few Bono blunders out of the playoffs in reality.

    Writing off half the season and foregoing all sense of pragmatism was arrogant.
    But there were obvious reasons for it like not taking on multi year contracts for questionable MLSers like an Auro or DeLeon type. Everyone is upset that we aren't going to playoffs but being patient and building like this is smart (for 2022). Sure they could have tried to go all in and win this season and we'd probably have another Jozy type anchor (or a Soteldo) around our necks. That kind jumping in for instant gratification is what gave us 2021.

  8. #5378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    But there were obvious reasons for it like not taking on multi year contracts for questionable MLSers like an Auro or DeLeon type. Everyone is upset that we aren't going to playoffs but being patient and building like this is smart (for 2022). Sure they could have tried to go all in and win this season and we'd probably have another Jozy type anchor (or a Soteldo) around our necks. That kind jumping in for instant gratification is what gave us 2021.
    They literally re-upped Auro before sending him off to pasture.

    There is a balance to be struck. Even guys like Jackson and Warner had parts to play in our ascent.

    Move guys on at the right time. Bring guys on as short-term fixes.

    Making the playoffs isn’t about contending for MLS Cup, it’s about not being pathetic. I’m not sure why these two things get conflated so often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Last year we were way worse within the league then we are now within the league.

    There were things about Auro people forget - the coming inside instead of tracking people behind him, his penchant to want the perfect thrown in, his preference to pass sideways, his unwillingness to drive to the line.

    Lawrence is foul prone , is not interested in moving forward & isn't all that good in the air.

    Better then what we started with? Maybe. Long term solutions - not so sure.
    With the money we spent if the bar if 'still bad, but better than last year when we were an absolute joke' everyone should be fired today, no ifs ands or buts. The bar, in reality, is far higher than that when you bolster your squad with players other teams can't dream about signing. I give them more than this season to get there, but 'we're better than last year!' isn't a good defense, it's more of an indictment.

    If we aren't in contention for the shield and cup next season though, that is failure. You don't absolutely gut a team and then spend money nobody else can spend without attaching those expectations to yourself. Not saying we have to win, but not being in the conversation would be a management failure. Bob Bradley, like it or not, is judged on next seasons performance and there are no excuses.
    Last edited by JoesphNdo; 09-13-2022 at 02:29 PM.

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    Serious question



    The money spent may not actually be all that much beyond 4 guys


    Buyout of Jozy

    2 DP's

    Trade away of Soteldo cost

    Eating some salary for a few let go who are on loan instead of traded

    Kaye purchase

    Criscito


    Who have we spent $ on? Jesus? Akinola?

    Oh, I just looked at O'Neill's wages....300K?

  11. #5381
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Serious question



    The money spent may not actually be all that much beyond 4 guys


    Buyout of Jozy

    2 DP's

    Trade away of Soteldo cost

    Eating some salary for a few let go who are on loan instead of traded

    Kaye purchase

    Criscito


    Who have we spent $ on? Jesus? Akinola?

    Oh, I just looked at O'Neill's wages....300K?
    The words 'Beyond 4 guys' are doing some pretty heavy lifting there.

    Those 4 guys represent more spending, and a higher caliber of players in, than 99% of this league could even dream of doing. With those 4 guys we're not even competing in the same stratosphere as most of the teams we share a league with. Gutting the team and spending that money + adding a DP (if we do) means we're out of excuses, if we aren't competing next season it's on management. No ifs ands or buts. We either are or we aren't and if we aren't we need new management. Almost nobody can do what we did with those moves, scraping into the play offs with that incredibly unfair competitive advantage is unacceptable if that's where we land. It's do or die next season.

  12. #5382
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Here are the actual stats:

    https://fbref.com/en/players/fd5e3a7...couting-Report

    He’s a good progressive passer and excels in certain categories but he’s in the bottom quartile for all of pressures, tackles, and blocks. In the bottom half for interceptions. He has an average amount of pressures. And as we’d all probably suspect, he’s near the bottom in terms of aerial duels won.

    In totality, that to me does not look like the statistical output of a leading midfielder or an effective defensive midfielder.
    Looks good to me. It looks like his profile overall pretty much always. Poor in tackles but not bad in dribblers tackled. He’s very successful when he does pressure. Is it enough for the system BB played in LA, no, I doubt it. Probably in a midfield with Osorio and MAK when they’re both fit and sharp (hasn’t happened yet) it’s workable.

    But isn’t this is why there has always been a question about what kind of midfielder he is? And why he’s scored consistently throughout his career no matter where or with who he’s played.
    Last edited by los sonadores; 09-13-2022 at 03:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by los sonadores View Post
    Looks good to me. It looks like his profile overall pretty much always. Poor in tackles but not bad in dribblers tackled. He’s very successful when he does pressure. Is it enough for the system BB played in LA, no, I doubt it. Probably in a midfield with Osorio and MAK when they’re both fit and sharp (hasn’t happened yet) it’s workable.

    But isn’t this is why there has always been a question about what kind of midfielder he is? And why he’s scored consistently throughout his career no matter where or with who he’s played.
    Not just poor in tackles. Poor in dribblers tackled, too, because the high percentage flatters an overall number per game in the bottom quarter.

    His pressuring is even worse. We're supposed to be a pressing team but he provides zero pressure on the ball.

    So, in essence, the only thing Michael still does effectively is short link up passes. We're basically playing Terry Dunfield a million a season and playing him 90 min per game. He doesn't cough up the ball much but he doesn't offer much going forward OR back.

    He creates less than one third of a chance per game, or about one potential assist every four games. He offers no offence (past the one game anomaly).

    He doesn't pressure the ball. he doesn't tackle often. When he does tackle, he's better at tackling guys on the move than guys he's competing with for the ball, suggesting he's beginning to lose the strength battle as well.

    I dunno. Those stat lines to be say the guy can't be starting at this level. It's bleaker than I thought, I admit.

    EDIT: Near the top of the league in ball recoveries per game, so that's a plus. I mean, it's not nearly enough, but it shows he's contributing something still.
    Last edited by jloome; 09-13-2022 at 04:04 PM.

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    If memory serves me right, the MLS free agents last off season were not very good or not a good fit for us. O’Neil and Edwards were both good fits. We got one and Edwards decided he wanted to stay in LA. This off season has quality free agents in position of need. If we don’t get one of the top CBs and a new GK, we have certainly dropped the ball.

  15. #5385
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Here are the actual stats:

    https://fbref.com/en/players/fd5e3a7...couting-Report

    He’s a good progressive passer and excels in certain categories but he’s in the bottom quartile for all of pressures, tackles, and blocks. In the bottom half for interceptions. He has an average amount of pressures. And as we’d all probably suspect, he’s near the bottom in terms of aerial duels won.

    In totality, that to me does not look like the statistical output of a leading midfielder or an effective defensive midfielder.
    91st percentile for passes completed. 89th percentile for goal creating opportunities by dribbling. 87th percentile for possession touches. 89th percentile for passes received (percentage). 89th percentile for balls recovered. Looks like a great midfielder by these stats.

    As I said, one can cherry-pick his best or worst stats. It's all a question of interpretation where you place him.

    The fact of the matter is he's declined from the 2017 DP midfielder. But is it worthwhile bolstering the midfield by replacing him or getting an out and out striker as DP? Do you just dump him for someone from elsewhere or do you gradually blood in a new midfielder?

    Roster building isn't an easy exercise.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 09-13-2022 at 04:21 PM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Not just poor in tackles. Poor in dribblers tackled, too, because the high percentage flatters an overall number per game in the bottom quarter.

    His pressuring is even worse. We're supposed to be a pressing team but he provides zero pressure on the ball.

    So, in essence, the only thing Michael still does effectively is short link up passes. We're basically playing Terry Dunfield a million a season and playing him 90 min per game. He doesn't cough up the ball much but he doesn't offer much going forward OR back.

    He creates less than one third of a chance per game, or about one potential assist every four games. He offers no offence (past the one game anomaly).

    He doesn't pressure the ball. he doesn't tackle often. When he does tackle, he's better at tackling guys on the move than guys he's competing with for the ball, suggesting he's beginning to lose the strength battle as well.

    I dunno. Those stat lines to be say the guy can't be starting at this level. It's bleaker than I thought, I admit.

    EDIT: Near the top of the league in ball recoveries per game, so that's a plus. I mean, it's not nearly enough, but it shows he's contributing something still.
    The high percentage has to do with pressure not tackles. Middling dribblers tackled is just that. He’s never tackled much otherwise. As for passing, he’s in the top 20% in most categories, short, medium and long. He also tries a lot of passes at all ranges (how could he not with our line up this season) and so his overall percentage of passes completed is middling. Goal creating actions is middle of the pack and shot creating actions is 66%. Not bad at all for the position on the field he’s playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    This off season has quality free agents in position of need. If we don’t get one of the top CBs and a new GK, we have certainly dropped the ball.
    For sure we need a starting GK (Johnson hopefully), a starting legitimate MLS CB, and two mids (one a MB replacement and one that offers something going forward). After that comb the waters for depth everywhere.

  18. #5388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    91st percentile for passes completed. 89th percentile for goal creating opportunities by dribbling. 87th percentile for possession touches. 89th percentile for passes received (percentage). 89th percentile for balls recovered. Looks like a great midfielder by these stats.

    As I said, one can cherry-pick his best or worst stats. It's all a question of interpretation where you place him.

    The fact of the matter is he's declined from the 2017 DP midfielder. But is it worthwhile bolstering the midfield by replacing him or getting an out and out striker as DP? Do you just dump him for someone from elsewhere or do you gradually blood in a new midfielder?

    One thing that's consistent is that Toronto fans always have a player to hate on. Guess it's Bradley's turn.
    I think the point isn't to say he's great or awful based on stats, but to point out that cherry picking a few stats to make a claim as high as he's statistically one of the best mid fielders in the league is very flawed. There's a *hell* of alot more to being a two way mid fielder than those numbers you have there, they definitely aren't nothing, but they do not lead to any reasonable conclusions along the lines of what you posted for me

    It's not to say he's bad or anything like that. But just it isn't correct to claim that statistically he's one of the best. The numbers do not give us enough information to say that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by los sonadores View Post
    The high percentage has to do with pressure not tackles. Middling dribblers tackled is just that. He’s never tackled much otherwise. As for passing, he’s in the top 20% in most categories, short, medium and long. He also tries a lot of passes at all ranges (how could he not with our line up this season) and so his overall percentage of passes completed is middling. Goal creating actions is middle of the pack and shot creating actions is 66%. Not bad at all for the position on the field he’s playing.
    He literally only excels in transitioning the ball between zones.

    His expected assists and goals are non-existent. His pressures and tackles are very low.

    So basically he's a good number eight... if we were on a team with an
    anchor number six.

    But we aren't. He can be the best shuttler in the league but if his defense is mediocre when static and even worse when moving, he can't play the role he's supposed to play.

    if we had a dedicated anchor he could be the second central mid covering the hole and it would be fine. But we're playing with three two-way number eights who are supposed to cover for each other. He just doesn't have the legs for that.

    EDIT: I will note however that more flexible tactics could accomdate this. The 343 (3412) we played in the second half is a good example. But then, if he's one of two players covering the hole instead of a cyclical three, do his defensive shortcomings become more exposed, and does his number eight role suffer?

    to me this all ads up to "not ideally a starter".
    Last edited by jloome; 09-13-2022 at 05:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    Couldn’t find anything concrete about this on Twitter. The closest was a Greek journalist saying they were in “crucial” talks for Oso, but referencing Veth’s report.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    91st percentile for passes completed. 89th percentile for goal creating opportunities by dribbling. 87th percentile for possession touches. 89th percentile for passes received (percentage). 89th percentile for balls recovered. Looks like a great midfielder by these stats.

    As I said, one can cherry-pick his best or worst stats. It's all a question of interpretation where you place him.

    The fact of the matter is he's declined from the 2017 DP midfielder. But is it worthwhile bolstering the midfield by replacing him or getting an out and out striker as DP? Do you just dump him for someone from elsewhere or do you gradually blood in a new midfielder?

    Roster building isn't an easy exercise.
    I would find a new starter in his place. Maybe not a DP but definitely a new starter.

    Think of this as a blanket statement (no other context): opposing team plays 35 year old midfielder with decreasing athleticism 90 every game. Point of vulnerability to be exploited? Would very much feels that way.

    For every Modric there are many more who don’t age well.

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    Finding a starter quality midfielder to sign may be challenging (unless we’re getting a DP mid, then ignore this). Bradley is too good to ride the bench but not good enough to start every game for 90 mins. There probably aren’t many players better than Bradley is right now willing to come and play only half the time. Trading for a midfielder or hoping Okello develops further is probably the only option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    Hey Amir, sorry, unclear to me, which way are you leaning? Blake or Johnson? All the points you highlight for both are valid, positive and enticing.

    In short, so far, with some community input and consensus...

    Sean Johnson:
    MLS: Tied leader in shut out performance this year w/ 13 clean sheets!
    U&P: Is a free agent.
    Amir: Has helped team make playoffs for 7th straight season and won MLS Cup last year.
    MrInBtwn: Johnson is 33 yrs old. He is making 550k.

    Andre Blake:
    MLS: Tied leader in shut out performance this year w/ 13 clean sheets!
    OtG: Blake is better at marshaling a back line. Agree.
    Amir: Blake is making 870k and is playing on a top team that could still win the Shield and Cup this year.
    MrInBtwn: Blake is 31 yrs old. Had contract extension in Y21 throught to Y24 with Y25 as an option year. Highest paid MLS Caribbean Player?
    leedsandTFC: Johnson has a prior and good relationship with Bob.

    My expectation is Johnson is a Red next season.
    Outlier... Maxime Crepeau's option is not engaged.
    Theres no reason for Blake to want to leave a top team or for a top team to want to get rid of him
    Johnson just won MLS Cup last year and they are making playoffs this year so why would he want to go to a rebuild team? Are we willing to offer more than 550k?
    Crepeau is sticking with Dos Santos and anyway hasnt played well this year

    Make an offer to Johnson but it shouldnt be significantly more than what hes making. Ive seen him make big mistakes constantly and hes turning 34 so how will be next year as far as performance and health is a question mark. But there isnt one single option, gotta look around. And again and again: you can do well and even more than well in this league without your goalkeeper doing great. Examples: LAFC and Montreal this year

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    Finding a starter quality midfielder to sign may be challenging (unless we’re getting a DP mid, then ignore this). Bradley is too good to ride the bench but not good enough to start every game for 90 mins. There probably aren’t many players better than Bradley is right now willing to come and play only half the time. Trading for a midfielder or hoping Okello develops further is probably the only option.
    It can certainly be done for TAM. It’s not as “sure thing” as a DP but it’s more than possible. At the expense of being lazy and not checking, I’m sure there are more than a few playoff teams with zero DP midfielders at the moment? (excluding attack minded ones like Poz, to be certain)

    My concern is Kaye and Akinola contracts. We’ve started off on the wrong foot with both those.

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    There is always Bill Hamid.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    There is always Bill Hamid.....
    D.C. doesn't trust him anymore. Not sure given his penchant for clangers we'd be wise to. Used to be great though.

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    Meanwhile, Hugo Mbongue (Ralph's brother) signed with the first team today.

    four goals, five assists in eleven NextPro games.

    Big, strong, fast, good finisher apparently. Perhaps in a few years we'll have an idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    July again? So another write off season? No thanks. This is the last window. Things have to happen now. We pissed away this season already.

    As some said here, Manning/BB better have the team in place and all the pieces of the puzzle to go day 1 of the new season. Anything less, and they both need to go. We must come out of the gates on fire and winning.
    Similar sentiment. They already took the risks they wanted and wasted a season. Bill wasted even more seasons based on his last coach hire and poor contract extensions giving us major limitations. No more excuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    They most definitely would have helped us at the start of this year. The second half then was the Bono show. I am convinced if we had Lawrence/Auro at the start and BB didn't banish Poz to bench/wings, and we had anyone other than Bono in net the past month, we are in the playoffs. All it would take is like what 10 points?
    Lawrence, Westberg and Auro aren't great by any means but they are definitely better then their replacements and would have easily helped us secure an extra 10 points. The reason their names keep coming up is because they were experienced, decent and we were already paying their contracts for the season.


    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    This team was not far off playoffs. We are literally a few Bono blunders out of the playoffs in reality.

    Writing off half the season and foregoing all sense of pragmatism was arrogant.
    Very arrogant.

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    One thing I want to add is that I think Bill finally deserves his fair share of criticism.
    I know I've personally given him a long leash up until this year thinking it was previous GMs faults but he admitted he is involved in every major deal, contract extension, stadium plan (safe standing 2021 was goal), season ticket hikes, etc.

    But the biggest reason for high expectations are because of his own words telling us in 2017 we should be a dynasty for 5 years. We aren't even close to that.

 

 

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