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  1. #3151
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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    the crux of the problem right now is the players aren't good enough.

    we're playing games with 4 kids and 0 dps, it's not surprising that we're not playing well.
    You’re right. I mean, the things I’m debating about his coaching are largely the thin edge of the problem’s wedge; do we play the same yutes in the same failing roles or do we mix up the personnel occasionally.

    But it’s frustrating to watch. It feels like we could be doing better with what little we have. I’m not sure people are wrong about Michael’s role and needing a DM.

    But… yeah, no better right winger, no line leader, no wingbacks, no starting goalie. No chance of winning like this, basically.

  2. #3152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokecell View Post
    Seems clear at this point that Berna is leveraging this offer to explore other avenues.

    I hope we have some targets lined up.
    ^this, exactly this. But we keep offering more money than he is going to get anywhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    ”This means Toronto FC will be signing Federico Bernadeschi” was on Michael Singh’s Twitter feed a week ago.

    That’s a confirmation. That’s not “…. if everything goes right.” “Will be” is exactly the same thing as “Done deal.” So yes, he jumped the gun.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/michaelsi...00527689138177

    If you scroll down, you’ll also see Fabrizio Romano claiming Bernardeschi’s “agents are checking the contracts and then it will be done.”

    In other words it’s just paperwork and it’s complete. So clearly he thinks it’s a done deal. But he doesn’t have it confirmed, or Bernardeschi wouldn’t have come out and said “don’t take it from anyone but me, as I haven’t signed anywhere.”

    It’s irresponsible to report something “will” happen until you have a confirmation, period, end of fucking debate.
    Exactly this post right here

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    If they don’t land Berna they are going to look like bigger morons than they already appear.. and that’s difficult

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    It’s very possible this team looks worse exiting the summer window than entering

  6. #3156
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Yeah, we have to count on Michael having the right perspective.

    I don’t know if he does. He famously once approached Clint Dempsey to get him onboard a USMNT plot to get Klinsmann fired but Dempsey told him to bugger off. He also had a Twitter feud with Jimmy Conrad that went on for several years due to Bradley’s alleged sensitivity to criticism.

    He seems like a polymath, in that he speaks multiple languages, is a big reader. But guys like that can also be more intellectually focussed on retention of information than comprehension of same, due to the compartmentalized nature of neurological functions.

    He’s very tough to read. Neither, however, seems to lack confidence.
    Honestly, I waver on what I think of both Bradley’s, but I do believe they are here to stay. I have a sneaking suspicion that they have Tannenbaum and Ujiri’s ears, and will soon be leading the organization together.
    Is that a good idea? Don’t know, but can’t be worse than Manning and Curtis.

  7. #3157
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Am I wrong about Nelson and Kerr and THompson? Are they close to a breakthrough? I don’t see it. There are 19- and 20-year olds starting all over this league now that seem much more consistent.

    I’m not sure I buy that a coach would play them to prove a point to the front office that they’re not ready, or that sort of scenario. More like “this is what we’ve got, this is what we work with.” But even there, it seems too strident, too based in the notion he can teach them very quickly to adapt to, say, a completely new position, and at a professional level.
    Guys & Gals, i think we have to be honest with ourselves regardless of what Manning says. THIS IS A REBUILD! 5 of our last 6 games have been against bottom feeders. We have too many personnel changes to field a team that is in sync. Those goals last night were simply brutal. The question to ask after the next window is “will we be better off than we were at the end of ‘21?”.

    Although, i really want to have some playoff football, i only really care about the CCL. As we know this is a game against Vancouver and there will be no excuse for anything but a win. Do whatever it takes to get ready for that game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamp Berg View Post
    Honestly, I waver on what I think of both Bradley’s, but I do believe they are here to stay. I have a sneaking suspicion that they have Tannenbaum and Ujiri’s ears, and will soon be leading the organization together.
    Is that a good idea? Don’t know, but can’t be worse than Manning and Curtis.
    The way that the Bradley’s seem to be entrenched in the club is positive on one end, but toxic on the other. There are grassroots clubs all over the province that have suffered profusely because of incestual leadership that often refuses to reflect introspectively. In fact, that is the very story that has plagued Canadian soccer for decades.

    I hope that this is not what is playing out. But, given the hiring practices and player transfers, I’m tempted to say it is.

    (Side note: If MLS really cared about the success of it’s clubs they’d audit them at least every 2 years and then internally circulate some sort of thematic reviews to encourage best practices regardless of business model.)
    Last edited by portu; 07-14-2022 at 11:02 AM.

  9. #3159
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    RE: Bleeding the kids
    They got an amazing opportunity to show what they bring to the table. They were in an environment where making mistakes wasn't going to cost them their spot on the first team. Where else can you get that kind of experience? Where you make a critical mistake in the match and you are not sent back to reserves for the next year. Look, none of them are first team ready (maybe Petrasso, maybe not) but some of them are now great options off the bench that have already made their mistakes and can now learn from veterans on how to get better. Gotta stop feeling sorry for the kids, they were in a good learning environment where they didn't get shit on for making mistakes.
    I tend to agree with this. If any of us thought we were going to be top of the league or competing for top spot in the East we are daydreaming. I do think we could have been better positioned for when this window opened and we got some help coming in so we could push for the playoffs. But they now know who we can rely on as a sub off the bench.

    I got curious this morning and started doing a little searching to find out how many minutes most of these kids had coming into this season. Not all are starters and we did already have a bit of experience on the field but really how can this many players have this amount of minutes and expect to compete. Not to mention 5 of them have suffered pretty bad injuries.

    McNaughton, Petrasso, Chung, Thompson, Kerr and I even added Jimenez all with -0 mins
    Perruzza- 135
    Rutty- 439
    Nelson- 445
    Priso - 749
    Okello - 873
    Achara - 916
    Shaff - 1,806
    Ayo - 2,068
    Even if you include the bottom 3, they total 7,431 combined MLS minutes of playing time coming into the start of this season..
    by comparison Shane O'Neil had 10,546- yes he is 28 and older, still makes mistakes. If you go further and check Oso who is a lock to start for us he had 18,208.
    Anyway, this was just a bit of an exercise I wanted to check out. I known we all knew they didn't have much experience but just a reference for anyone interested.

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    Maybe I am just a rube who is missing the details but I have a hard time believing what we are doing is actually conducive to player development.

    You want kids to be a part of a reasonably cohesive system, be somewhat supported by others which allows for them to better understand what their role is on the pitch and focus on what the things are they need to do. You lose more than you win, but your generally competitive and get better long term.

    In our case, there are so many breakdowns because of the overall state of the team and the number of youth players fielded at once, it’s not ideal.

    I just don’t see how it can work out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post

    As for Priso, I get it and it makes sense but I would have preferred to just give the Rapids Ayo as they requested. That being said Priso hasn't showed much more than Nelsen did when he was pronounced to be the next Euro bound player so who knows really?
    ya I wasn't keen on priso move either - but seeing what they got back - I get it.

    Keeping Ayo tells me that a new Striker/FW isn't in the cards. JJ + Ayo are the options and the hope is that better service from both sides of the pitch will help them convert more goals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Maybe I am just a rube who is missing the details but I have a hard time believing what we are doing is actually conducive to player development.

    You want kids to be a part of a reasonably cohesive system, be somewhat supported by others which allows for them to better understand what their role is on the pitch and focus on what the things are they need to do. You lose more than you win, but your generally competitive and get better long term.

    In our case, there are so many breakdowns because of the overall state of the team and the number of youth players fielded at once, it’s not ideal.
    I somewhat agree because they are getting thrown to the wolves but they will gain experience and see what is expected at the pro level. That is important in develpment but I think part of the BB plan is to see who can cut it and who can't so it's a learning experience but with a lot of sink or swim attached.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Maybe I am just a rube who is missing the details but I have a hard time believing what we are doing is actually conducive to player development.

    You want kids to be a part of a reasonably cohesive system, be somewhat supported by others which allows for them to better understand what their role is on the pitch and focus on what the things are they need to do. You lose more than you win, but your generally competitive and get better long term.

    In our case, there are so many breakdowns because of the overall state of the team and the number of youth players fielded at once, it’s not ideal.

    I just don’t see how it can work out.
    The kids are being supported - Got this from twitter this AM -

    Anthony Khoury @AnthonyKhoury4 · 12h
    Asked Bob Bradley to speak on the current mood in the dressing room:

    "There are some guys that are strong and keep on top of others, and there are some guys that are dejected and realize it's harder than they thought. As a group, we need to keep them going."

  14. #3164
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    ya I wasn't keen on priso move either - but seeing what they got back - I get it.

    Keeping Ayo tells me that a new Striker/FW isn't in the cards. JJ + Ayo are the options and the hope is that better service from both sides of the pitch will help them convert more goals.
    Ayo currently looks too lazy to score anything other than tap ins. He barely moves at all, even with the ball coming in the box. Unlike the other kids like Kerr it isn't because he isn't sure what to do either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I somewhat agree because they are getting thrown to the wolves but they will gain experience and see what is expected at the pro level. That is important in develpment but I think part of the BB plan is to see who can cut it and who can't so it's a learning experience but with a lot of sink or swim attached.
    We are not losing games because of systematic break downs. We are losing because of individual mistakes. The kids are playing in a system and have structure around them. Yes, the are being bled, but it's being done in what seems like a supportive environment. They are not being hung out to dry. It's not the daycare environment you might find at other "Develop first / win later" clubs. But it's still an effective way to develop players in what will become a very competitive environment

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    We are not losing games because of systematic break downs. We are losing because of individual mistakes. The kids are playing in a system and have structure around them. Yes, the are being bled, but it's being done in what seems like a supportive environment. They are not being hung out to dry. It's not the daycare environment you might find at other "Develop first / win later" clubs. But it's still an effective way to develop players in what will become a very competitive environment
    By that I mean that they will fill these spots and have every chance to learn and grow into the spot but under very difficult conditions (too many kids & older players who are playing like kids) and in the end will probably be axed or loaned out to the CPL / MLS Next Pro forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Ayo currently looks too lazy to score anything other than tap ins. He barely moves at all, even with the ball coming in the box. Unlike the other kids like Kerr it isn't because he isn't sure what to do either.
    It really looks to me that Ayo hasn't come in fit. I know he's had an injury but he looks slow and heavy. Maybe we need to do BMI measurements like DC was doing (and ten Hag is implementing)? lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    By that I mean that they will fill these spots and have every chance to learn and grow into the spot but under very difficult conditions (too many kids & older players who are playing like kids) and in the end will probably be axed or loaned out to the CPL / MLS Next Pro forever.
    ya. Sink or swim as a first team player sure. I mean we still need a bench and these kids could easily put in a solid, game changing 20 minute shift. or slot into the starting 11 of CanChamp matches. We are an injury prone club, so they'll get starting minutes because of that. Midweek games could see them come in as well.

    They are still young. If they were 23, 24 then that would suck - but they are 18 - 21, so a couple years of that isn't horrible.

    How does movement within the club work? Could they sit on the bench and play 20 minutes of a TFC match and then get starting minutes the next day for TFC MLS Next Pro or TFC2?
    Last edited by jabbronies; 07-14-2022 at 11:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    How does movement within the club work? Could they sit on the bench and play 20 minutes of a TFC match and then get starting minutes the next day for TFC MLS Next Pro or TFC2?
    Schaff just did something like this. Not sure if there are limits on those short term loans though.

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    Part of the problem is the bias towards our own players… we could probably list 20 players that people on this board over the years were convinced they were going to be in Europe and none of them went or if they did they did fuck all. They aren’t good enough partially due to the inner workings of the academy me our development system.

    Due to the purge of the roster and blooding the kids I hope everyone now realizes how difficult it is to be a mls starter let alone make it Europe and stop the we need to play the kids. Cause if they are good enough then they will force the hand of BB to play then if not that just means they aren’t good enough

    I knew a coach that work in the academy and especially with the earlier kids that came through the academy were all entitled and spoiled. They thought they should walk into the starting 11. Poor training habits not wanting to put the work in. It’s sad cause they had talent just not the brains or desire to actually do the things to make them succeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Schaff just did something like this. Not sure if there are limits on those short term loans though.
    free movement within the club would be ideal. Not sure if there's a way to game that system and that's why it may not be allowed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    We are not losing games because of systematic break downs. We are losing because of individual mistakes. The kids are playing in a system and have structure around them. Yes, the are being bled, but it's being done in what seems like a supportive environment. They are not being hung out to dry. It's not the daycare environment you might find at other "Develop first / win later" clubs. But it's still an effective way to develop players in what will become a very competitive environment
    I’d argue there’s not much in the way of structure out there. Sure, explicitly we have a system but a decent portion of the starting 11 is having issues keeping up.

    So you have a player that’s trying to learn but is also trying to make sense of the chaos around them.

    I think back to Doniel Henry. He’s not better for having played for early days TFC. Might have wrecked his development IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoodson View Post
    I knew a coach that work in the academy and especially with the earlier kids that came through the academy were all entitled and spoiled. They thought they should walk into the starting 11. Poor training habits not wanting to put the work in. It’s sad cause they had talent just not the brains or desire to actually do the things to make them succeed.
    Haha kind of sounds like my son. He played competitive and had some skills to the point that clubs were offering him to play for them for free and they would get sponsorship to get what he needed for any expenses and they also wanted him to play at a higher age group than what he was in. But his maturity and mentality to put in the hard work just wasn't there unfortunately to go anywhere. Some kids had the maturity and work ethic but not the talent but both is needed. My son worked plenty hard at practice which is what got him to where he was but it is what you do the rest of the time to develop and do all the right things to push even further is what differentiates and produces the good pros. Oso talks a lot about this in his interviews and even recently spoke about the youth on the team currently needing to get some of that ethic into them a little more.

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    kids this kids that....maybe if we were not down 2 nil every game and playing 5 of them and some in spots they never played before,they wouldnt not have that deer in the head lights look.if you look at the last 8 goals they 6 or 7 of them are on mavinga.if he is having mental or family probs give him some time off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie View Post
    kids this kids that....maybe if we were not down 2 nil every game and playing 5 of them and some in spots they never played before,they wouldnt not have that deer in the head lights look.if you look at the last 8 goals they 6 or 7 of them are on mavinga.if he is having mental or family probs give him some time off.

    The "maybe if we were not" is happening because of what is being discussed....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoodson View Post
    Part of the problem is the bias towards our own players… we could probably list 20 players that people on this board over the years were convinced they were going to be in Europe and none of them went or if they did they did fuck all. They aren’t good enough partially due to the inner workings of the academy me our development system.

    Due to the purge of the roster and blooding the kids I hope everyone now realizes how difficult it is to be a mls starter let alone make it Europe and stop the we need to play the kids. Cause if they are good enough then they will force the hand of BB to play then if not that just means they aren’t good enough

    I knew a coach that work in the academy and especially with the earlier kids that came through the academy were all entitled and spoiled. They thought they should walk into the starting 11. Poor training habits not wanting to put the work in. It’s sad cause they had talent just not the brains or desire to actually do the things to make them succeed.
    Half the problem is that those players really believe they are destined for Europe. Yet unless it's the Hungarian fourth division, probably not.

    My oldest was on an academy team in France when we lived there. The tough mentality and training attitude there is way beyond what we have here. Players realized that most of them never would make it to the first team and that if they wanted to they needed that combination of natural talent but also mental toughness and willingness to work very, very hard. That was at age 8!
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-14-2022 at 12:20 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie View Post
    kids this kids that....maybe if we were not down 2 nil every game and playing 5 of them and some in spots they never played before,they wouldnt not have that deer in the head lights look.if you look at the last 8 goals they 6 or 7 of them are on mavinga.if he is having mental or family probs give him some time off.
    Yep he's tweeted an apology today and referenced some off field issues. Feel for the guy. When he's healthy and motivated he's still a force, but like Altidore it's rare both those boxes are checked at the same time. Hopefully these CB issues are becoming glaring early enough in the window to address asap.

    The other thing with him is speed was one of his greatest assets. Fast enough to cover for his own and other's positional lapses...if that's one of the first attributes to deteriorate with age it's going to have a big impact on his performance as he pushes into his 30s.

    https://twitter.com/Chris_Mavinga/st...22238168711168
    Last edited by Kiwi10; 07-14-2022 at 12:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I’d argue there’s not much in the way of structure out there. Sure, explicitly we have a system but a decent portion of the starting 11 is having issues keeping up.
    I think a decent portion of the starting 11 was having trouble managing all of the kids around them not being where they should be. I also think those same players are having issues when they are getting the ball much later than they should have been getting it. MAK stood out big time yesterday because he was playing a game that no one around him was playing. He was taking the space in front of him quickly and then moving the ball quickly forward. However others around him held on for 1-2 beats too long and took space with odd pace.

    At one point I saw Nelson take about 10 yards, he had another 5 in front of him but decided to cut back for no reason right into the defender who was tracking behind him. I then saw him hold on to the ball, looking right at an open Kaye, waited for the defender to close in on kaye and then decided to pass to him. Instead of playing the 1-2, Nelson stood there like a statue and Kaye gave the ball away. Who would you blame for that? IMO that is youth putting vets in impossible situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I think back to Doniel Henry. He’s not better for having played for early days TFC. Might have wrecked his development IMO.
    If his development is still stuck at the point from when he first played with TFC, then that is a pretty good indication of why he got cut by LAFC (a team with ambition) and why other teams haven't picked him up yet. He's not good. he just happens to have experience so people just think he's good. He hasn't developed his game at all. He's still a kid fumbling around the pitch. Not a seasoned vet

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The "maybe if we were not" is happening because of what is being discussed....
    regardless how average the kids look,the probs have been shitty cb play for 2 years now remember we have had fullbacks last year and they still sucked.and they have had average keeping now for 2 years,we need a whole new back 5 or 4 with criscito here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Half the problem is that those players really believe they are destined for Europe. Yet unless it's the Hungarian fourth division, probably not.

    My oldest was on an academy team in France when we lived there. The tough mentality and training attitude there is way beyond what we have here. Players realized that most of them never would make it to the first team and that if they wanted to they needed that combination of natural talent but also mental toughness and willingness to work very, very hard. That was at age 8!
    France is a very interesting place in terms of youth development. I had a similar exposure to it in my family.

    The city where we lived in the south had 20 (twenty) 18 team divisions. The cost to play was almost free (maybe €100) and they gave you high-quality, free everything to keep (track suits, bags, kits, etc).

    My family member had trials with two clubs in our area of the city. One in the 3rd division and one in the 15th. Made both. But the top teams trained 6 days a week and we were pretty realistic about him “making it” so to speak. We asked the coach of the better team when the players would study with so much training, he laughed and said this was their studies.

    Unreal talent, unreal desire to succeed, and people who are ruthlessly built to perform. Sometimes because that’s who they are, sometimes because they come from a dangerous neighborhood and not making it means being dead or in jail in 5 years is the only other path they see.

    Not many have that drive here.

 

 

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