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  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by Section 223 View Post
    And if you believe that he is not finished, why is Bob not playing him in a position that gives us more bang for the buck? I thought this new coach was the answer to all our problems
    First he is finished. That's obvious. Second, he struggled when Vanney played him wide as well so this is not a new thing for him and I obviously wasn't stating that based on his 2021/22 form.

    But for Bob, his system doesn't use the position that Poz is better utilized at. Since Poz is gone at the end of the season there is no sense in tweaking the system and throwing off the training of the kids just to make Poz fit better. If he could have bought out Poz I bet he would have but we had to use it on an even worse problem and contract.

    To anyone paying attention and judging us objectively, it's quite clear that this season is like a combination of an extended youth training camp and the final cleansing of the remaining Curtis era failures & Vanney era leftovers. Anyone expecting great results now is either deluded, not paying attention at all, or searching for more reasons to complain on the internet.

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    It’s really not fair, on evidence, to call the guy finished.

    In 11 appearances, he has two goals, two assists and a 7.21 average rating on whoscored which pretty objective.

    He’s not finished, he’s misused and overpaid for what he’s now producing… but let’s keep in mind he has few surrounding pieces to feed.

    Clearly, statistically, he’s our best offensive player other than Jimenez and Osorio.

    But he’s on big DP money and he doesn’t play defense, not really. He has, in a couple of games, clearly heeded requests that he track back and press. But it’s not his norm.

    If he stayed on form he’d finish the year with seven goals and seven assists.

    The former is almost on target for his norm, which is in the eight-plus range.

    It’s the assists that are way down. But that’s also the stat most likely to be affected by poor supporting performers.

    They can either let his contract expire and trade his rights to someone else, if they want to sign him for less. Or they could resign him to a TAM deal if he’d accept it.

    But the dude hasn’t turned into an impediment. He’s just not a defender and, with a step less, is not quite DP effective anymore.

    The problem we have is that we are trying to play a system to suit BB’s objectives AND inverted forwards/wings because Insigne is coming in.

    But our midfield is not fast or aggressive enough to stop transition play, and we have too many youth players.

    Finished, however, is sort of disrespectful and kind of bullshit. He’s clearly still an effective player, he’s just not a $4M-a-year DP performer.

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    If Poz were to do a 6 month, I would respect that decision.

    I would hope he could be worked into a system with Insigne. To me the underlying issue is our lack of a decently paced DM (BB did find one at LAFC - just took him a while) - I still think Priso can become that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    In 11 appearances, he has two goals, two assists and a 7.21 average rating on whoscored which pretty objective.

    He’s not finished, he’s misused and overpaid for what he’s now producing… but let’s keep in mind he has few surrounding pieces to feed.

    Finished, however, is sort of disrespectful and kind of bullshit. He’s clearly still an effective player, he’s just not a $4M-a-year DP performer.
    Okay that's fair. I get his ratings have been decent but by the eye test and what is expected from him based on his previous seasons, he looks like a shell of his former self.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    If Poz were to do a 6 month, I would respect that decision.

    I would hope he could be worked into a system with Insigne. To me the underlying issue is our lack of a decently paced DM (BB did find one at LAFC - just took him a while) - I still think Priso can become that.
    I think the fact that he has scored so much better on average rating when playing as a central midfield than when playing as a wide right forward (a 7.21 average versus 5.88) suggests he could adapt to a new two-way role, if he was put there everyday.

    The problem, again, is value. Over a season, do we get the best out of him a workmanlike role? Probably not. And he’s small, easier to shove off the ball.

    When he plays central he’s a different person, but unless we start playing a false-nine two-man front, how is that going to work? A 4411? A 3-4-2-1, with him an Insigne underneath?

    It’s tough, as Bradley’s system is designed to use the danger zones at the top corners of the box to put in short diagonal balls in, as that’s where the highest percentage of goals originate. But typically, that requires a wide player, ideally with an overlap for options and keeping the defenders honest.

    He just doesn’t really fit into it. The only two-man front formation that allows Insigne to play inverted wing is an offensive 442, with all four attackers playing high, and two central DMs/pivots, sort of like his central mid with Atuesta and Kaye at LAFC.

    I think you’re right about the DM. We’re hosed without it, because no matter what formation we play, our three starting central midfielders are all either offensively biased (Osorio and Pozuelo) or a two-way without the legs to get back (Bradley).

    And all three are slow compared to almost every team we face.

    I wish they could adapt all of this to keep him central but I’m not sure how. If we get a DM and play him as an attacking central mid, where does Osorio go? If we put him under the striker, conventional wisdom says we can’t play with high inverted wings, as there’s too many caught up pitch whenever the opponent breaks out or hits a long ball.

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    Priso and Bradley worked well together v Orlando. I think that’s the answer, but then it’s Poz or Oso with them, unless MB is going at the end of the year and Oso becomes his position. More likely for Poz to go. Jesus noticeably less effective when he isn’t in the line up, but if you are an offensive DP like Poz is you need to produce. And he isn’t, at the moment, including penalties…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Okay that's fair. I get his ratings have been decent but by the eye test and what is expected from him based on his previous seasons, he looks like a shell of his former self.
    I suspect their lack of speed is making all three central midfielders look ineffective. Every team in the league is moving to pressing, quick transition football, Gegenpress stuff.

    We just keep getting overrun, caught with too few people back. I think I mentioned in another thread that Bradley’s also technically over a ‘7’ on average (though he’s probably fallen below since) and has two tackles per game. Statistically, he’s doing what’s expected of him.

    But in terms of team play, a two-way player who can’t get back and cover a zone is a luxury a team with eight kids on it can’t afford. An attacking midfielder who can only play one-way and in the hole is a luxury it can’t afford.

    In any normal team, where the wing backs know when to get back, can read danger and can block most early crosses, these guys don’t look like a liability, they look like a role player.

    In a team with eight kids and a two-way press-high system, they have to play two ways, and they’re aging out of the ability to do that.

    Even Osorio, who has pace if not acceleration (he’s fast over distance, he’s just a little slower off the mark), has had a couple of games with four, five central turnovers because he’s crowded out and the support isn’t there to get out of it, or because his first step isn’t quite quick enough to evade pressure.

    Between the injuries, the bad year, the divorce and the team’s tactics no longer suiting his style, Poz IS a shell of his former self. That still makes him better than most midfielders in MLS, skill-wise. I just don’t know how we adapt that.

    Maybe Bradley will end up pulling an enterprising, weirdly tiered formation out of his hat. But to me, we have some serious other problems that also make the 433 difficult.

    For one, what about Ayo? Spot duty behind Jimenez is a waste, when we have so many less effective players on the field. Playing him wide right isn’t making the most of his abilities, although the way Bob started with Peruzza wide right last game and Kerr carrying the ball on that side, maybe he intends to use the right winger as a false nine.

    If we played four-four-two with an underlap, where the WB takes up the wide roll but doesn’t hug the touch, we could maybe use the overall positioning to solidify our defensive shape but still have the left wing act as an inverted, come-inside threat.

    So that would be something like:

    —————Jimenez (Ayo) — Pozuelo (Ayo)————
    Insigne—-Osorio—Priso (Bradley/newDM) — Thompson (new RW)
    Petrasso(new LB)—Salcedo (Mavinga) McNaughton (O’Neill) — Chung (new rb)

    When Poz is on, Jimenez plays as the high forward and Pozuelo behind him. When Ayo’s on, Jesus or Poz plays behind him.

    But it’s really old fashioned, tactically, and means we spend half our time trying to bomb down the wings, avoiding central positions that can pull defenders out of shape. It’s not pretty, although it does make a central column press easier, so our defending would probably improve.
    Last edited by jloome; 05-19-2022 at 12:16 PM.

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    Poz is, emphatically, our best creative player statistically (Looking at goals, but especially assists and key passes which basically means chance creation) and nearly every decent chance we've had this season has gone through him. He's out of position and definitely not as good as he was earlier, likely because of that, but some of the takes on this board, Jesus. He's our second best player so far this season (and in the top 20 players league wide, statistically, for creating chances despite having all of one competent player to pass too and playing for one of the worst teams in the league) and I think it's quite a jump between him and number three
    Last edited by JoesphNdo; 05-19-2022 at 12:17 PM.

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    Poz isn't finished. He just might be as a DP here.

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    I also noticed that Pozuelo’s rating dropped over the two games Osorio was out. Prior to that, he’d been above seven — usually well above, among the league leaders — for all nine of our games.

    Since Osorio has been gone and he’s been playing as a right wing forward, he’s had a 6.2 and a 5.88.

    So maybe the key is just to keep him in central midfield, whether right or in the middle. As long as he’s not always high up the pitch, he contributes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    Poz is, emphatically, our best creative player statistically (Looking at goals, but especially assists and key passes which basically means chance creation) and nearly every decent chance we've had this season has gone through him. He's out of position and definitely not as good as he was earlier, likely because of that, but some of the takes on this board, Jesus. He's our second best player so far this season (and in the top 20 players league wide, statistically, for creating chances despite having all of one competent player to pass too and playing for one of the worst teams in the league) and I think it's quite a jump between him and number three
    Yeah, that. The change in position has really hurt him. He was clipping along pretty nicely when in the middle of the park.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    How is this a stain on Bob? Would you rather have the toxic Soteldo playing in this team for another year?

    This is 100% the fault of Curtis. We are lucky Soteldo was able to be unloaded for a serviceable player.


    its really on whoever hired curtis tbh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I think everyone should be focused on summer 2023. The team will have old contracts expired and most of what Bob wants brought in.

    This season to feels like a right off, perhaps we can make a run when Insigne joins, but nobody should be expecting much this year, simply too much of a mess to cleanup.


    The vibe from management was different, based on the 40% increase alone - the on field product and production should definitely be reflecting the increase in price, they could have waited until the next season to increase, but I will not give manning any more time for more mistakes or missed signings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    If they don’t eventually bring in midfield help this team is sunk.

    Jonathan Osorio in the lineup is the difference between being a mid-table team and a bottom feeder. If they replaced Poz with someone who is a strong box-to-box option, we’d be getting somewhere. If we don’t have someone stronger to pull the weight next to Bradley + kids each and every game, this all goes nowhere.

    I am giving a pass on this year given the extraordinary amount of BS Curtis piled up and if we didn’t take steps to unwind it garbage would have persisted for years. But if not addressed by opening day 2023 Bradley can join Armas in the unemployment line

    before bradley id rather have manning join his rolodex buddies nothing will change, over confident, thinks he is smarter than everyone and is a master of saving himself.

    the focus should be on the flopped signings after isigne or the fact that there are no wing backs when auro is still getting paid from TFC.

    forget the players for a minute , curits+ armas+ altidore+auro+soteldo? are all still getting paid from TFC.


    Does anyone else not see the mismanaged money or cap use? the players alone had created a very difficult situation and the sunk cost for the terribly vetted coach and GM combined with insigne they jacked up the season tickets by 40%.

    If Manning didnt tumble into signing Insigne- would anyone still be patient with anything he had to say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post

    —————Jimenez (Ayo) — Pozuelo (Ayo)————
    Insigne—-Osorio—Priso (Bradley/newDM) — Thompson (new RW)
    Petrasso(new LB)—Salcedo (Mavinga) McNaughton (O’Neill) — Chung (new rb)

    When Poz is on, Jimenez plays as the high forward and Pozuelo behind him. When Ayo’s on, Jesus or Poz plays behind him.

    But it’s really old fashioned, tactically, and means we spend half our time trying to bomb down the wings, avoiding central positions that can pull defenders out of shape. It’s not pretty, although it does make a central column press easier, so our defending would probably improve.
    I've been saying to the guys I watch matches with for a while now. It would help us out now but I still think Bob isn't concerned about results now but rather seeing how the young guys fit, how much they can get up to speed, and which ones aren't going to get his system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FootBallAZ View Post
    before bradley id rather have manning join his rolodex buddies nothing will change, over confident, thinks he is smarter than everyone and is a master of saving himself.

    the focus should be on the flopped signings after isigne or the fact that there are no wing backs when auro is still getting paid from TFC.

    forget the players for a minute , curits+ armas+ altidore+auro+soteldo? are all still getting paid from TFC.


    Does anyone else not see the mismanaged money or cap use? the players alone had created a very difficult situation and the sunk cost for the terribly vetted coach and GM combined with insigne they jacked up the season tickets by 40%.

    If Manning didnt tumble into signing Insigne- would anyone still be patient with anything he had to say?
    If Manning didn’t sign Insigne this would be a continuation of last season empty stadium. No interest from anyone except 300 or so die hards , there’s no two ways about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Section 223 View Post
    If Manning didn’t sign Insigne this would be a continuation of last season empty stadium. No interest from anyone except 300 or so die hards , there’s no two ways about it
    I do not know even with Insigne in the lineup interest will remain if this team continues its downturn, through July, August at the latest, maybe?

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

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    I think Pozuelo's problems are a combination of his own and the team's.

    When people are moving, getting open, thinking ahead, then he has often still looked decent this season (although not as good as in the past). Some games when Poz was playing, teammates seemed to stop and watch him, and opponents had no problem triple-teaming him, or cutting off any available passes. It's a chicken-egg thing: sometimes people stop and stare because Poz holds the ball too long. Sometimes Poz holds the ball too long because nobody is thinking ahead and getting open. Occasionally this season I have had no idea what the team's offensive strategy is. But then again, in the last game they moved the ball pretty well w/o Poz.


    Problems that are definitely more Poz's own issues: in addition to sometimes holding the ball too long, so many of his passes have been off or too soft this season. Even some short easy passes. He seems to overthink it, maybe he's not feeling confident so a short pass is mishit.

    Another issue is related: it's been there longer but seems to be getting worse. So many of Poz's shots and passes are chips rather than ever putting his laces through it. He had some early success with chipped goals in MLS, and then just seemed to get addicted to them. Past highlights show him putting long / hard shots on net in Belgium: what happened? And chipped passes don't work so well against hard-pressing MLS opponents: those passes are too slow and easy to intercept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    I do not know even with Insigne in the lineup interest will remain if this team continues its downturn, through July, August at the latest, maybe?

    exactly imagine everyone who joined in 2016 and 2017 - the quality of player - the beauty of the game being highlighted.

    regardless if its a throw a way season, you cant justify increasing prices by 40% and not backing it up with quality on the field or at the very list a game where it makes the average fan not really consider not showing up to the stadium.


    I still dont understand why bono is in net, - TFC cant get a shot on net or score one goal- so they expect games to be 1-1 or 2-1 win? SMH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    I think Pozuelo's problems are a combination of his own and the team's.

    When people are moving, getting open, thinking ahead, then he has often still looked decent this season (although not as good as in the past). Some games when Poz was playing, teammates seemed to stop and watch him, and opponents had no problem triple-teaming him, or cutting off any available passes. It's a chicken-egg thing: sometimes people stop and stare because Poz holds the ball too long. Sometimes Poz holds the ball too long because nobody is thinking ahead and getting open. Occasionally this season I have had no idea what the team's offensive strategy is. But then again, in the last game they moved the ball pretty well w/o Poz.


    Problems that are definitely more Poz's own issues: in addition to sometimes holding the ball too long, so many of his passes have been off or too soft this season. Even some short easy passes. He seems to overthink it, maybe he's not feeling confident so a short pass is mishit.

    Another issue is related: it's been there longer but seems to be getting worse. So many of Poz's shots and passes are chips rather than ever putting his laces through it. He had some early success with chipped goals in MLS, and then just seemed to get addicted to them. Past highlights show him putting long / hard shots on net in Belgium: what happened? And chipped passes don't work so well against hard-pressing MLS opponents: those passes are too slow and easy to intercept.


    He;s suppose to press the ball in the net.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    I do not know even with Insigne in the lineup interest will remain if this team continues its downturn, through July, August at the latest, maybe?
    There were 24K last week for a game against a team nobody really cares about.

    Interest will never go back to when we had 9K.

    People want soccer in this town as an event to go to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    There were 24K last week for a game against a team nobody really cares about.

    Interest will never go back to when we had 9K.

    People want soccer in this town as an event to go to.
    This.

    Also most people understand that when the team got torn down this spring and Bob said we would rebuild and to be patient, that he meant that it would take longer than May when all the good windows are long closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    There were 24K last week for a game against a team nobody really cares about.

    Interest will never go back to when we had 9K.

    People want soccer in this town as an event to go to.
    Really? The quality on this team is much worse then last year , stadium was empty , why? Because there was nothing to look forward to. I was at the game Saturday I saw many TFC 24 shirts in the crowd , who wears 24? Lorenzo Insigne . Bill Manning has bought time with this major signing , this team currently is a CPSL side no one is paying 120-160 dollars to watch this, he raised ticket prices 40 percent , who in their right mind is financially committing to this club at a 40 percent raise unless they know Insigne is on his way

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    Club management is solely surviving off the (untactful) Insigne signing. Would any of you “trust the process” people be saying that if they didn’t unload a dump truck of money to sign him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Section 223 View Post
    Really?
    Yes, actually....I was there in the south end & remarked upon it in the game thread & in a response to a journo on twitter - 2/3 of each section was full - even the side 200's on the East, and that's the seats that usually do not sell.

    Anybody who thinks it was empty is ...well I don't know cause I was there.


    As much as us diehards can't stand some things that have been done to this team, most people just want to come out to a game on a nice day.
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 05-19-2022 at 06:13 PM.

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    I gotta say there are some head scratchers in the roster and tactics -- especially under Armas & Curtis of course, but even this season.

    And I think the price jump this year is nuts, seeing how the roster has to be cleaned up. Add in some of the early-season hype. However the lack of big advertising & publicity makes a bit more sense now: they're saving that for later, when someone other than the die-hards are paying attention.

    HOWEVER I'm also VERY happy that they're not signing a bunch of hopeless loan deals, not bringing in more old & damaged MLS re-treads, or over-priced European drifters for short-term futility. All of that just prevents true progress long term, bungles the cap situation even more, and prevents prospects from getting game time and improving. TFC has done all the above repeatedly in the past, always adding the delusional "but we're gonna make the playoffs this season."

    Go to the games if you can stomach it, or stay home if you can't. Count on the team sucking more often than not. Take a swig of beer every time Bono loses possession. I have no idea how Bob the Builder will pan out, and I wasn't too excited about his hiring, but let's give him a chance. (Manning is on a very short leash for me, but he's not going anywhere a half year after hiring Bob Bradley.) I also have no idea how much cap space they have in order to improve in the summer (beyond Insigne) - we shall see I guess. More moves will only be possible next off-season, and even summer 2023 to round things out. What You See Is What You Get, at least until July. Deal with it, or don't.
    Last edited by Auzzy; 05-19-2022 at 06:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Club management is solely surviving off the (untactful) Insigne signing. Would any of you “trust the process” people be saying that if they didn’t unload a dump truck of money to sign him?
    I would agree with you if Bob wasnt in charge.

    I'm not a big fan of Manning but as long he stays out of the way the team will turn around. Just look at the Jimenz signing, those are out of the blue signings that would never have happened before.

    The 40% prices increase is an insult but I'm not sure how much Manning could have done. We don't have a Tim Leiweke at MLSE anymore to sell the vision, its just a bunch of accountants looking to balance the books who cant read the room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Section 223 View Post
    If Manning didn’t sign Insigne this would be a continuation of last season empty stadium. No interest from anyone except 300 or so die hards , there’s no two ways about it
    but he did sign him ...and tfc signed gio ,jozy,mb to sell tickets and to win cups,tfc have had 15k to 22k ssh since day one,and have been the highest spending team every year and will be this year buy alot.i was at the game saturday and it was a good crowd 26k
    be grateful we a have club willing to spend,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I would agree with you if Bob wasnt in charge.

    I'm not a big fan of Manning but as long he stays out of the way the team will turn around. Just look at the Jimenz signing, those are out of the blue signings that would never have happened before.

    The 40% prices increase is an insult but I'm not sure how much Manning could have done. We don't have a Tim Leiweke at MLSE anymore to sell the vision, its just a bunch of accountants looking to balance the books who cant read the room.
    tfc will be spending more this season than ever before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Club management is solely surviving off the (untactful) Insigne signing. Would any of you “trust the process” people be saying that if they didn’t unload a dump truck of money to sign him?
    I don't trust anything. The team is mostly dire. I'm not even too excited about Insigne, because many players in this league start having problems over 30. From all the travel and crazy rules, plastic pitches, gonzo weather, and having to play with a bunch of sub-standard teammates. That was a big-money but lazy Transfer Markt signing. There a far better deals for the buck available -- although I'm also looking forward to seeing him play.

    But in MLS terms, I have some hope in management due to a few finds like MacNaughton and especially Jiménez. O'Neill is decent backup. Two or three youngsters will also work out. Most of that is probably Bob Bradley rather than Manning. Plenty of the current rumours seem iffy, but I bet Bradley will bring in some more deals like that in the summer and next winter.

 

 

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