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  1. #511
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    Bob's media availability:

    1) Kaye came injured
    from Colorado.
    Wow. I thought that was verboten these days.

    2) he wants coaches to be able to rate refs along with PRO. Says Ted Unkels positioning was so bad it actively interfered with our buildup on five or six occasions. Also let the Galaxy off twice for simulation and gave them an injury pause they hadn't even asked for.

    I think he's right. PRO shouldn't be the sole arbiter of the refs rankings and performances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Bob's media availability:

    1) Kaye came injured
    from Colorado.
    Wow. I thought that was verboten these days.

    2) he wants coaches to be able to rate refs along with PRO. Says Ted Unkels positioning was so bad it actively interfered with our buildup on five or six occasions. Also let the Galaxy off twice for simulation and gave them an injury pause they hadn't even asked for.

    I think he's right. PRO shouldn't be the sole arbiter of the refs rankings and performances.
    Something needs to be done about the refereeing in this league but probably only real change will come if refs who know what they are doing are hired. To do that you have to pay them decently. Amateur refs mean an amateur league.

    Iím wondering if the league has been counting on VAR to improve the situation? So far it seems to me that it just means (inadequate tech aside) we have bad VAR officials Ö it makes everything worse and more chaotic.
    Last edited by los sonadores; 09-02-2022 at 04:32 PM.

  3. #513
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    On refereeing in MLS: presumably the mandate of the league is to develop US officials? Not possible in a sustainable way unless you pay them. But thatís a much bigger problem than the relatively low cost of salaries when bringing in, what 10 or 20? competent referees from abroad.

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by los sonadores View Post
    On refereeing in MLS: presumably the mandate of the league is to develop US officials? Not possible in a sustainable way unless you pay them. But that’s a much bigger problem than the relatively low cost of salaries when bringing in, what 10 or 20? competent referees from abroad.
    It's not one of the official objectives, all refereeing is done through PRO which has relationships with US Soccer and Soccer Canada. The league and PRO have done some efforts to improve the refereeing (which has improved somewhat), but MLS has tended to be cheap in this area. I've maintained the same thing that you're saying, we need some Designated Refs to train the others how to do a better job.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    It's not one of the official objectives, all refereeing is done through PRO which has relationships with US Soccer and Soccer Canada. The league and PRO have done some efforts to improve the refereeing (which has improved somewhat), but MLS has tended to be cheap in this area. I've maintained the same thing that you're saying, we need some Designated Refs to train the others how to do a better job.
    Who you gonna call?

    https://www.jla.co.uk/conference-speakers/pierluigi-collina

    Problem solved.

    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 09-02-2022 at 06:18 PM.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    You read my mind. That guy was a dope referee, legend.

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    Studying the constantly changing patterns of all the teams in the league so youíre not standing in the wrong place when you work with them would be the minimum basic required. But if you make $500 per match (while flying around North America to do it), unless youíre independently wealthy, forget it. Proper devotion to the job canít be expected unless a living wage is involved.

    I suppose in another world, long ago, an amateur referee was an honest referee. But now that guy in the pitch-side seat calling you a bum is paying more for that seat then youíre paid to work the match.

  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by los sonadores View Post
    Studying the constantly changing patterns of all the teams in the league so youíre not standing in the wrong place when you work with them would be the minimum basic required. But if you make $500 per match (while flying around North America to do it), unless youíre independently wealthy, forget it. Proper devotion to the job canít be expected unless a living wage is involved.

    I suppose in another world, long ago, an amateur referee was an honest referee. But now that guy in the pitch-side seat calling you a bum is paying more for that seat then youíre paid to work the match.
    Salary for an MLS ref last year was $55,000 US. Not great. (Also not $500 per game, but not great.) Salary for one of the ten working assistants was only $15,000 which is pitiful.

    https://sportekz.com/money/mls-referees-salaries/

    Also, the vast disparity leads to obvious problems of the guys in the top tier potentially aligning to protect themselves and stay in that fold, rather than dropping down to the much lower earning levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Salary for an MLS ref last year was $55,000 US. Not great. (Also not $500 per game, but not great.) Salary for one of the ten working assistants was only $15,000 which is pitiful.

    https://sportekz.com/money/mls-referees-salaries/

    Also, the vast disparity leads to obvious problems of the guys in the top tier potentially aligning to protect themselves and stay in that fold, rather than dropping down to the much lower earning levels.
    $850 per match for the top (Petrescu, Geiger, Chapman, etc.) and $500 for the rest. Rookies $150 per match. $55,000 would be the very high end and chosen for the most matches. I think that same site lists $6500 per match for La Liga. And I seem to remember $10,000 for a Euro league final.

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    Quote Originally Posted by los sonadores View Post
    $850 per match for the top (Petrescu, Geiger, Chapman, etc.) and $500 for the rest. Rookies $150 per match. $55,000 would be the very high end and chosen for the most matches. I think that same site lists $6500 per match for La Liga. And I seem to remember $10,000 for a Euro league final.
    Yeah, I think based on the math the $55K is if you get all the best assignments, two games a week sort of thing.

    Even with travelling expenses picked up, itís not much for a specialized profession that requires strong physical condition.

    I saw another site that said the average is $34,850 or something like that for MLS refs. There are kids at McDonaldís making more.

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    This is just bad mechanics by the league all the way around. $55k a year really discounts the sacrifice and skill it takes to do the job properly and all the extra work that has to be done off the field by officials to ensure the product stays consistent. Entirely predictable the end product is so poor when that is what is going into it.

    Iím surprised Europe is playing so little. Maybe itís a function of having lots of people who are capable and passionate about the sport hanging around which keeps wages at a low level.

  12. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    This is just bad mechanics by the league all the way around. $55k a year really discounts the sacrifice and skill it takes to do the job properly and all the extra work that has to be done off the field by officials to ensure the product stays consistent. Entirely predictable the end product is so poor when that is what is going into it.

    Iím surprised Europe is playing so little. Maybe itís a function of having lots of people who are capable and passionate about the sport hanging around which keeps wages at a low level.
    If they're getting 50 matches a year in La liga that's $325k per year, so I guess it depends how many refs and assignments there are.

    But the numbers here are another bleak indictment of how long it can take MLS to learn from past example of getting what's paid for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    If they're getting 50 matches a year in La liga that's $325k per year, so I guess it depends how many refs and assignments there are.

    But the numbers here are another bleak indictment of how long it can take MLS to learn from past example of getting what's paid for.
    Think it also speaks to the mentality of the ownership groups. They invest in VAR rather than salaries. Nothing offends a North American business person like paying an employee competitive wage it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Think it also speaks to the mentality of the ownership groups. They invest in VAR rather than salaries. Nothing offends a North American business person like paying an employee competitive wage it seems.
    Thatís right on the mark. Bullseye.

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    These wages are way too low. Beyond all the above mentioned reasons, match fixing becomes more problematic with such very low amounts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Think it also speaks to the mentality of the ownership groups. They invest in VAR rather than salaries. Nothing offends a North American business person like paying an employee competitive wage it seems.
    Truer words were never spoken

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Think it also speaks to the mentality of the ownership groups. They invest in VAR rather than salaries. Nothing offends a North American business person like paying an employee competitive wage it seems.
    This gets my vote for post of the year. The only change to your statement that I would make is to substitute the word "living" for competitive. I work for one of the big 5 schedule A banks and the trend over the last decade has been to sub contract as much work as possible to private companies in 3rd world countries so as to minimize labour costs. The only exception is the salary and bonuses paid to the CEO and other senior executives, which seem to get bigger every year.
    Last edited by NK Toronto; 09-04-2022 at 03:15 PM.

  18. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Think it also speaks to the mentality of the ownership groups. They invest in VAR rather than salaries. Nothing offends a North American business person like paying an employee competitive wage it seems.
    While I agree, $55k certainly isn't poor, but league should increase the lower end mainly (say $40k at least) and maybe top out at $65k-$70k.

    How many "matches" are these guys working though? I presume they're allowed to do other matches aka consulting/freelancing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverSamurai View Post
    While I agree, $55k certainly isn't poor, but league should increase the lower end mainly (say $40k at least) and maybe top out at $65k-$70k.

    How many "matches" are these guys working though? I presume they're allowed to do other matches aka consulting/freelancing?
    I mean look, I say this with no intent at spite, as we all make our own choices and for plenty of people out there itís about more than the money. But I have a tough time believing $75k solves the problem. In my office (finance), this is slightly below the salary we pay new grads with zero experience.

    If this officiating job is done properly, there is a lot more work that does into in other than just stepping onto a field and calling a match. There are continuous meetings and training sessions, all in the interest of consistency. You also have to keep yourself in shape. Thereís a limited lifespan in the career.

  20. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I mean look, I say this with no intent at spite, as we all make our own choices and for plenty of people out there it’s about more than the money. But I have a tough time believing $75k solves the problem. In my office (finance), this is slightly below the salary we pay new grads with zero experience.

    If this officiating job is done properly, there is a lot more work that does into in other than just stepping onto a field and calling a match. There are continuous meetings and training sessions, all in the interest of consistency. You also have to keep yourself in shape. There’s a limited lifespan in the career.
    75K is not a bad salary, it’s almost the entire household income in Canada with an assumption of two working adults. YOu’re doing well dude; most people don’t make 75K a year; the average is skewed up by the top 3-4% making above average incomes.

    They’re advertising a job for the official correspondence writer and editor for the Premier of Alberta right now. It starts at 72K. That’s a job with potential historic ramifications to it, with massive responsibility. The TOP END for that job is 90K, Alberta is (by far) the best paying jurisdiction in the country on average and yet 92% of surveyed staff online think government wages here are fair.

    The very notion that people usually make more than 75K out of college is part of the grotesque social inflation that is going on right now, which isn’t bringing up people at the bottom; it’s just creating a massive disparity between rich and poor that is utterly unaffordable for the latter.

    End social rant.

    Now, having said all that… this is supposed to be the pinnacle of a trade, the top league in the U.S. and Canada. Refs should be making a decent wage for a top-tier tradesman who has to travel constantly, which to me is in 75k to 140K a year range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    75K is not a bad salary, it’s almost the entire household income in Canada with an assumption of two working adults. YOu’re doing well dude; most people don’t make 75K a year; the average is skewed up by the top 3-4% making above average incomes.

    They’re advertising a job for the official correspondence writer and editor for the Premier of Alberta right now. It starts at 72K. That’s a job with potential historic ramifications to it, with massive responsibility. The TOP END for that job is 90K, Alberta is (by far) the best paying jurisdiction in the country on average and yet 92% of surveyed staff online think government wages here are fair.

    The very notion that people usually make more than 75K out of college is part of the grotesque social inflation that is going on right now, which isn’t bringing up people at the bottom; it’s just creating a massive disparity between rich and poor that is utterly unaffordable for the latter.

    End social rant.

    Now, having said all that… this is supposed to be the pinnacle of a trade, the top league in the U.S. and Canada. Refs should be making a decent wage for a top-tier tradesman who has to travel constantly, which to me is in 75k to 140K a year range.
    Totally agree. Cheers man

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I mean look, I say this with no intent at spite, as we all make our own choices and for plenty of people out there itís about more than the money. But I have a tough time believing $75k solves the problem. In my office (finance), this is slightly below the salary we pay new grads with zero experience.

    If this officiating job is done properly, there is a lot more work that does into in other than just stepping onto a field and calling a match. There are continuous meetings and training sessions, all in the interest of consistency. You also have to keep yourself in shape. Thereís a limited lifespan in the career.
    Your office pays more than $75k for a new grad? You must be an investment banker.

  23. #533
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    I watched a TFC game a few years ago and for a change that game I had seats close to the sidelines so I got a good look at the linesman running up and down the field for a change. Usually in the south end where I am most games I never look at them or pay any attention. I was in a soccer store the next day buying cleats for my son. The salesguy helping me was that linesman. I couldn't believe it. I told him I saw him the day before at the game. He said he has to do more than one job to keep the bills paid.

  24. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    I watched a TFC game a few years ago and for a change that game I had seats close to the sidelines so I got a good look at the linesman running up and down the field for a change. Usually in the south end where I am most games I never look at them or pay any attention. I was in a soccer store the next day buying cleats for my son. The salesguy helping me was that linesman. I couldn't believe it. I told him I saw him the day before at the game. He said he has to do more than one job to keep the bills paid.
    Apparently Silviu Petrescu works (or worked) as a taxi driver since it gives him flexibility to ref games.

    MLS referees should be earning a comfortable salary that allows them to ref as their full time job. They should be spending time maintaining their fitness, reviewing their previous games and studying upcoming teams rather than working random jobs to make ends meet.

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    Tomorrow is the US Open Cup Final. Sacramento Republic from the USL Championship faces Orlando. We might see a USL team make the CCL. Sacramento has beaten San Jose 2-0, the LA Galaxy 2-1, and SKC in PKs on their run

    Also, this happened:
    Last edited by rydermike; 09-06-2022 at 08:45 PM.

  26. #536
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    ^that's a huge scandal, on the level of NFL's "inflate gate." Orlando should be penalized if this is true.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 09-07-2022 at 06:35 AM.

  27. #537
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    The amount of Orlando fans saying "What does it matter? Its not like they run plays or change tactics during the game!" just makes me go

  28. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The amount of Orlando fans saying "What does it matter? Its not like they run plays or change tactics during the game!" just makes me go
    It's fucking cringe inducing being in a U.S. football league sometimes, it really is.

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  30. #540
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    Why does everyone get up in arms about spying? There should be more of it, in fact we should be #1 in that department.

    If you're not spying on other teams tactics then you don't want to win.
    Last edited by Richard; 09-07-2022 at 03:36 PM.

 

 

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