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  1. #2041
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdogg View Post
    I don’t agree. MLSE is not MLS and MLSE is not gate driven. MLSE paid for broadcast rights and then bought local rights for TFC only too. They averaged 1-1.5 million viewers for big games and can sell huge advertisement spots with that many people watching. They bring in players and win and they could be talking 500,000 more viewers and unless they build another 20,000 seats at BMO an minor attendance bump for SSH is irrelevant

    If it’s a gate driven league that’s fine but MLSE is not gate driven. I’d also challenge the gate driven league in general based on why MLS is ending all tv contracts by 2022. The League Cup and the expiring deals suggest even the league isn’t gate driven anymore.
    This argument flares up over the years. We used to have a poster who put the ratings up regularly, it was pretty shocking how weak TFC regular season ratings were, mostly 50-100K iirc, no better than darts. They would flare up to 500K if they had a strong position in the schedule (ie a Saturday 5pm game right before or after an attractive HNIC playoff game)

    Everyone agrees the potential is there, but I think the reality has been pretty disappointing. Unless it's a semifinal or a final, TFC mostly draws flies on TV. So far.
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    This argument flares up over the years. We used to have a poster who put the ratings up regularly, it was pretty shocking how weak TFC regular season ratings were, mostly 50-100K iirc, no better than darts. They would flare up to 500K if they had a strong position in the schedule (ie a Saturday 5pm game right before or after an attractive HNIC playoff game)

    Everyone agrees the potential is there, but I think the reality has been pretty disappointing. Unless it's a semifinal or a final, TFC draw flies on TV. So far.
    Yup. Thatís been the case. TV is zilch for MLS. (Not for SUM ie for the owners but for MLS itself). TFC 20,000 x $50 (ticket) plus $50 (two beers and a slice) adds up.

    Personally, I donít mind a gate driven league. Might mean they donít need VAR as much - for example the Arsenal - Man City Game vastly preferable without VAR, which didnít even get the decisions right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdogg View Post
    I realize so many believe the attendance matters but I doubt it really does. What matters more than anything is how many eyeballs watch on tv. Remember MLSE are two cable giants (and local businessman) first and foremost so nothing is more important than content. The Leafs and Raptors went ahead and played without fans for that reason - they don’t need them at the stadium.
    Webdogg, you are right in so far as that is where MLS would like or has to go. Yes, in other NA pro sports leagues, NHL, NBA, MLB and the global holy grail NFL, team spend is predominately supported by visual media rights. For instance, in Europe, leagues like EPL or SerieA and their teams share with their federations the billion+ Euro that domestic and foreign broadcast media rights bring in; some of these teams may get hundred+ of millions. Unfortunately, as Section 223 and reggie mention MLS for now is gate and ownership funded. There may be side deals and exceptions that enjoy viewership spikes, but the thrust, the goal is lucrative TV rights which I believe is in MLS's 5 year direction plan to and beyond the NA hosted WC26. Let me be clear here, as I take a cue from ensco, I know nothing, nothing! Bogers together or separately may decide to roll the dice and make a play for the all encompassing NA CAN/US/MX rights in a long term, close to 10Y deal, as well as any foreign rights package to allow MLS some gamesmanship/product funding upgrade stability. Rogers sort of did this to some territorial extent when they wrestled the control of NHL rights away from CBC and then repackaged and parceled out to recoup with its competitors. I believe Comcast and Sky as well as Dazn are among leaders in this. I am not sure this would happen since I have my own thoughts about MLSE, Ownership, relationship with other leagues and the future that circles MU.

  4. #2044
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Hey dude any chance to use names not initials? I lost track early on here and was interested.
    Apologize MightyDM. I will in future, at least full last or first, and will try to Edit the post for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    This argument flares up over the years. We used to have a poster who put the ratings up regularly, it was pretty shocking how weak TFC regular season ratings were, mostly 50-100K iirc, no better than darts. They would flare up to 500K if they had a strong position in the schedule (ie a Saturday 5pm game right before or after an attractive HNIC playoff game)

    Everyone agrees the potential is there, but I think the reality has been pretty disappointing. Unless it's a semifinal or a final, TFC mostly draws flies on TV. So far.
    Perhaps Iíve got the wrong person but didnít you say the MLSE is try to drag up MLS salaries? Theyíre certainly not doing it to get an extra 1000 SSH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdogg View Post
    Perhaps Iíve got the wrong person but didnít you say the MLSE is try to drag up MLS salaries? Theyíre certainly not doing it to get an extra 1000 SSH.
    I am sure you are right that they want TV. Itís just not there yet.

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    As I said MLSE is not gate driven. Respectful itís a very outdated mindset talking about solely ratings or the actual game. If you think the game for MLSE is the 2 hours with fans at the stadium you may be missing the big picture. I continually said MLSE cares about ďcontentĒ not a game.

    Content is pre-game, post-game, actual games, trade centers, downloads, YouTube, Twitter feeds, images, highlight shows, recaps, club forums, etcÖ. Think about what kind of advertising dollars are made on all of the above and tell me if you seriously believe MLSE is inflating salaries so they can recover the 20% lost SSH several people bantered over.

    Multimedia is the single biggest cash cow that any spot offers and itís why the cable companies own the biggest and - more importantly - spend like drunken sailors. Donít you find it odd that Bell/Rogers have multiple sports teams just like Fenway/NESN or Dodgers/Galaxy/Time Warner or even Yankees Group/NYCFC/YES ? Pretty convenient for advertising sales to say to Tim Hortons that ďif you want to advertise during Leafs games you got to buy our TFC package too otherwise no Leafs gamesĒ

    The argument about 500k versus whatever number you want to say for viewer count is also irrelevant because now people watch the show a day later, watch on YouTube or when itís convenient.

    I know most donít care about hockey but how much money do you think MLSE made on the All or Nothing show on Prime? That money isnít captured on league charts or on a stupid viewer metric for HNIC. Thatís straight profit that likely isnít shared with players either. When thereís a TFC All or Nothing show are we going to stop talking about whether the SSH were down to 80% renewal?

    Iím not trying to insult anyone, Iím middle age and it took me awhile to see it but the way MLSE operates is a great business model. Clocking dollars from every possible source means more than having a 1000 extra SSH for 20 home games. They probably generate that same money on YouTube views

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdogg View Post
    Perhaps I’ve got the wrong person but didn’t you say the MLSE is try to drag up MLS salaries? They’re certainly not doing it to get an extra 1000 SSH.
    In my own previous posts, I alluded IMHO that MLSE/TFC's current spends will have league wide implications; the fallout will eventually cause the increase in player salaries. IIRC BMO fixed capacity is about 30K, temporarily expandable on special occasions to various; 40 to 45K. I also have suggested any Covid Pandemic & Post attendance was in the 5 to 15K zone. I think Pre-Covid they were in the 15 to 25K zone. Toronto's North American Y26 World Cup hosting at BMO would require some-sort of expansion balanced between a fixed and a temporary set. Like standing in the south end. Accordingly, lets say fixed capacity increases from 30K to 35K, then MLSE/TFC are executing this effort to be in the 25 to 35K regular attendance zone; targeting SSH from 20 to 25+K. Depending on how many SSH they actually lost, I estimate they are aiming for an additional 7K SSH; for now, this season.
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-03-2022 at 12:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    In my own previous posts, I alluded IMHO that MLSE/TFC's current spends will have league wide implications; the fallout will eventually cause the increase in player salaries. IIRC BMO fixed capacity is about 30K, temporarily expandable on special occasions to various; 40 to 45K. I also have suggested any Covid Pandemic & Post attendance was in the 5 to 15K zone. I think Pre-Covid they were in the 15 to 25K zone. Toronto's North American Y26 World Cup hosting at BMO would require some-sort of expansion balanced between a fixed and a temporary set. Like standing in the south end. Accordingly, lets say fixed capacity increases from 30K to 35K, then MLSE/TFC are executing this effort to be in the 25 to 35K regular attendance zone; targeting SSH from 20 to 25+K. Depending on how many SSH they actually lost, I estimate they are aiming for an additional 7K SSH.
    Great call it 7k SSH at what $1000 average? So being hung up on a whopping 7 million dollars makes sense for this level of spending? Iím no math expert but if youíre paying 15 million + for Insigne + to recover your missing 7 million well thatís not a great ROI.

    In fact your numbers makes my views even more stronger because that 7 million recovery pretty much destroys the SSH are top priority theory and are no where close to the actual reasons they are trying to inflate the entire league wages. When LAG and other clubs start spending more and the content becomes even more valuable, well maybe people will see that 7k SSH isnít that big of a deal
    Last edited by Webdogg; 01-03-2022 at 12:22 AM.

  10. #2050
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdogg View Post
    As I said MLSE is not gate driven. Respectful it’s a very outdated mindset talking about solely ratings or the actual game. If you think the game for MLSE is the 2 hours with fans at the stadium you may be missing the big picture. I continually said MLSE cares about “content” not a game.

    Content is pre-game, post-game, actual games, trade centers, downloads, YouTube, Twitter feeds, images, highlight shows, recaps, club forums, etc…. Think about what kind of advertising dollars are made on all of the above and tell me if you seriously believe MLSE is inflating salaries so they can recover the 20% lost SSH several people bantered over.

    Multimedia is the single biggest cash cow that any spot offers and it’s why the cable companies own the biggest and - more importantly - spend like drunken sailors. Don’t you find it odd that Bell/Rogers have multiple sports teams just like Fenway/NESN or Dodgers/Galaxy/Time Warner or even Yankees Group/NYCFC/YES ? Pretty convenient for advertising sales to say to Tim Hortons that “if you want to advertise during Leafs games you got to buy our TFC package too otherwise no Leafs games”

    The argument about 500k versus whatever number you want to say for viewer count is also irrelevant because now people watch the show a day later, watch on YouTube or when it’s convenient.

    I know most don’t care about hockey but how much money do you think MLSE made on the All or Nothing show on Prime? That money isn’t captured on league charts or on a stupid viewer metric for HNIC. That’s straight profit that likely isn’t shared with players either. When there’s a TFC All or Nothing show are we going to stop talking about whether the SSH were down to 80% renewal?

    I’m not trying to insult anyone, I’m middle age and it took me awhile to see it but the way MLSE operates is a great business model. Clocking dollars from every possible source means more than having a 1000 extra SSH for 20 home games. They probably generate that same money on YouTube views
    I do not believe anyone is meaning to say MLSE is gate driven. I believe what is trying to be said is that for now TFC is.

    To understand this it has to be understood that the Maple Leafs and the Raptors and TFC are different franchises and business entities; operations. They may have similar types of revenue streams, but each likely at much different intakes; degrees. They can even be run in the same manner, but are separate. I believe the goal for MLSE is to get TFC to their NBA and NHL success models; high SSH and casual regular sold out attendance, while along the way exploit and capture all revenue streams, including any relative cha-ching media deals. I am assuming MLS now shares the timing of this mindset. Hence the green-lighted new spend. TFC is not yet capturing NBA and NHL media numbers; they are not and can't until...

    I think football's North American professional sport's potential, the populaces participation, is ready for a leap forward growth. 'Football is Life' and it is generally accepted as the professional sport of the world; the beautiful game. It isn't close to that level in the US and Canada. The idea may be to take advantage of a series of benchmark steps. They could be Canada's Y22 World Cup journey, MLS Y23 Leagues Cup, FIFA's decision to allow North America to host World Cup Y26. The threading altogether of these by the rising youth and family popularity of the sport with girls and boys, women and men in North America.

    The argument is the chicken or egg; the horse or cart. I believe MLS/MLSE/TFC needs to improve the on field product before and in order to attract viewership in order to grow their media money intake to NBA, NHL levels. I think MLSE/TFC recent actions support that premise.

  11. #2051
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    We don't really need to discuss whether the club is gate or media driven because they go hand-in-hand. Talking about TV numbers is pretty useless if your 30k stadium can't even sell-out. Attendance last year was appalling, even given Covid, imagine how poor the numbers must have been.

    Leafs do 800-1.2 mil on average per game. They spend enormously, play in the best league in the world and are the most relevant team playing the most relevant sport in the region. Unless TFC is in a top 5 league and competes at a top level, TV numbers will never pick-up in a way that reliably creates NHL/NBA returns.

    Inbetween is right - you need a quality product to generate quality returns. Exposure and winning only takes you so far, the normal consumer is looking for a high quality product and is peripherally concerned with the more political aspects of consumerism (regional support, social justice, etc). They are intelligent enough to recognize and infer the difference between watching Insigne and Osimhen as opposed to Insigne and Mullins (even if they couldn't pick any of them out of a line-up) and they are intelligent enough to distinguish between the importance of MLS Cup and a regular season game. Numbers will never budge if you don't invest, Insigne is that investment.

    The size of that investment is another story. This is a serious financial outlay, completely out of the blue. Last year they were offering Borrť 20m over 3 years and now they're offering Insigne 20m a year for 5. Something has seriously changed in the front office because even Leiweke wasn't able to make this level of deal happen and I struggle to believe that Manning had the political capital to sway MLSE after the previous season. Either Bob Bradley has captivated the board or someone senior with serious sway is going to bat for this club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    We don't really need to discuss whether the club is gate or media driven because they go hand-in-hand. Talking about TV numbers is pretty useless if your 30k stadium can't even sell-out. Attendance last year was appalling, even given Covid, imagine how poor the numbers must have been.

    Leafs do 800-1.2 mil on average per game. They spend enormously, play in the best league in the world and are the most relevant team playing the most relevant sport in the region. Unless TFC is in a top 5 league and competes at a top level, TV numbers will never pick-up in a way that reliably creates NHL/NBA returns.

    Inbetween is right - you need a quality product to generate quality returns. Exposure and winning only takes you so far, the normal consumer is looking for a high quality product and is peripherally concerned with the more political aspects of consumerism (regional support, social justice, etc). They are intelligent enough to recognize and infer the difference between watching Insigne and Osimhen as opposed to Insigne and Mullins (even if they couldn't pick any of them out of a line-up) and they are intelligent enough to distinguish between the importance of MLS Cup and a regular season game. Numbers will never budge if you don't invest, Insigne is that investment.

    The size of that investment is another story. This is a serious financial outlay, completely out of the blue. Last year they were offering Borrť 20m over 3 years and now they're offering Insigne 20m a year for 5. Something has seriously changed in the front office because even Leiweke wasn't able to make this level of deal happen and I struggle to believe that Manning had the political capital to sway MLSE after the previous season. Either Bob Bradley has captivated the board or someone senior with serious sway is going to bat for this club.
    I am really starting to dislike you portu!
    Been digesting his post, gathering my thoughts, trying not go on a tangent and here you say what I wanted and would have liked to say, better and much more succinctly.
    Thanks a lot!
    Well stated.

    Edit. Me likes the Osimhen... Napoli-Nigerian mention and connect. Are you dropping a hint in case MU is lurking?
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-03-2022 at 06:10 AM.

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    Iíve gone off topic too far as well but i know that either

    1. Bob Bradley has naked picture of someone on the board,
    2. someone big has started to really like soccer or
    3. someone sees money to be made.

    The numbers donít support a drive to fill a stadium because if it is full that still doesnít make financial success. This is not a deep rooted supporters club like in Europe so itís got to be money driven and the numbers donít lie, stadium driven isnít enough to recover what they are paying out.

    Maybe BB actually has naked pictures I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdogg View Post
    Iíve gone off topic too far as well but i know that either

    1. Bob Bradley has naked picture of someone on the board,
    2. someone big has started to really like soccer or
    3. someone sees money to be made.

    The numbers donít support a drive to fill a stadium because if it is full that still doesnít make financial success. This is not a deep rooted supporters club like in Europe so itís got to be money driven and the numbers donít lie, stadium driven isnít enough to recover what they are paying out.

    Maybe BB actually has naked pictures I suppose.
    I think we all agree with you that MLSE wants to do the multimedia thing with TFC as it does with the Leafs and Raptors. But we all recognize it isnít there yet and as you say, the numbers donít make sense. So that tells me that everything rumoured is not happening and the parts that may be ie Insigne arenít at the levels quoted. ďIf it sounds too good to be true, it likely isĒ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdogg View Post
    I’ve gone off topic too far as well but i know that either

    1. Bob Bradley has naked picture of someone on the board,
    2. someone big has started to really like soccer or
    3. someone sees money to be made.

    The numbers don’t support a drive to fill a stadium because if it is full that still doesn’t make financial success. This is not a deep rooted supporters club like in Europe so it’s got to be money driven and the numbers don’t lie, stadium driven isn’t enough to recover what they are paying out.

    Maybe BB actually has naked pictures I suppose.
    Webdogg, yes! Welcome back! Anyone or all of your suggestions above likely; ha!
    Yes, of course current seating numbers do not support the spend; again, stadium driven wouldn't cover it in the new reality.
    It likely still doesn't with the addition of any current media or merchandise money; yet.
    That's the disconnect for me; maybe others.
    I suspect someone, somewhere in the organization may have knowledge about MLS developments for new or increasing revenue streams.
    That understanding may be influencing the calculus.
    Without question any franchise as TFC needs the synergy between a full stadium, concessions, merchandising, broadcast media, tournament and playoff play to cash in; a quality product drives that.
    Only then would MLSE-Ownership get the opportunity of a ROI on their current TFC expenditure; maybe.
    Otherwise, MLSE was so worried that TFC would slide into Argos irrelevancy that they purposefully over corrected and expect a loss and will accept it as a price for maintaining business till a better way forward days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    So that tells me that everything rumoured is not happening and the parts that may be ie Insigne aren’t at the levels quoted. “If it sounds too good to be true, it likely is”
    I hope this is the case and your right. Just don't know what to think anymore. Expect we may find out shortly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdogg View Post
    Perhaps I’ve got the wrong person but didn’t you say the MLSE is try to drag up MLS salaries? They’re certainly not doing it to get an extra 1000 SSH.
    No, not me. I was arguing that these estimated salaries make no sense. Now that I see actual reporters repeating the numbers… I guess we will see.

    I have no big idea what MLSE might be thinking, but would have to be some sort of relaunch of the “this can be a major TV product” idea.

    This is a daunting problem. The F1 breakthrough tells me that you'd have a better chance of trying to promote to the general public UEFA CL than TFC/MLS.
    Last edited by ensco; 01-03-2022 at 08:44 AM.
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

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    It's odd how we (under)estimate the value of the product's future in North America. As the supporters of fotball we accept the role of (currently) marginal and expect that it stay that way it seems. I was born in the fifties and watched both Am. football and basketball develop markets that previously didn't exist and I never watched a soccer game unitl 2007. My kid took me. Now a SSH I watch Lille and Bayern and Mls. and more most weeks. I play the fantasy league and buy jerseys and subscribed to One Soccer for CCL and CMNT games.

    My point is shit changes. I've sat at BMO for CMNT games when the Jamaican-Canadians out sang us and outscored us. So when I sat in a sold out BMO for the first time in a couple years and watched the CMNT beat Panama I realized things have changed.

    It's not our job to figure out where the market in N. America is headed but it comes as no surprise to me that a company that bought in for 10mil 16 years ago might be bullish on the future.

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    Romano keeps quoting his figures and suggest we don't get him until June.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RealG-TFC View Post
    Romano keeps quoting his figures and suggest we don't get him until June.

    ^The wording is key here, if they work out something with Napoli ($) he could potentially join now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djking2 View Post
    It's odd how we (under)estimate the value of the product's future in North America. As the supporters of fotball we accept the role of (currently) marginal and expect that it stay that way it seems. I was born in the fifties and watched both Am. football and basketball develop markets that previously didn't exist and I never watched a soccer game unitl 2007. My kid took me. Now a SSH I watch Lille and Bayern and Mls. and more most weeks. I play the fantasy league and buy jerseys and subscribed to One Soccer for CCL and CMNT games.

    My point is shit changes. I've sat at BMO for CMNT games when the Jamaican-Canadians out sang us and outscored us. So when I sat in a sold out BMO for the first time in a couple years and watched the CMNT beat Panama I realized things have changed.

    It's not our job to figure out where the market in N. America is headed but it comes as no surprise to me that a company that bought in for 10mil 16 years ago might be bullish on the future.
    That is very well put.

    Somebody has to believe in, really commit to, and actually drive the change.
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

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    I don't think he will want to come until June. He's got too much unfinished business he wants to wrap up first.

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    When are the transfer windows this year?

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    So Belotti's being pursued by TFC but he prefers Milan...

    https://twitter.com/FT_Italiano/stat...64959409754117

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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    I don't think he will want to come until June. He's got too much unfinished business he wants to wrap up first.
    Hereís hoping they keep losing so thereís no good reason to stick around.

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    They have a good shot at Europa, but they have to knock out Barcelona first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealG-TFC View Post
    They have a good shot at Europa, but they have to knock out Barcelona first.
    They’ll get knocked out by Barca before the season starts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djking2 View Post
    It's odd how we (under)estimate the value of the product's future in North America. As the supporters of fotball we accept the role of (currently) marginal and expect that it stay that way it seems. I was born in the fifties and watched both Am. football and basketball develop markets that previously didn't exist and I never watched a soccer game unitl 2007. My kid took me. Now a SSH I watch Lille and Bayern and Mls. and more most weeks. I play the fantasy league and buy jerseys and subscribed to One Soccer for CCL and CMNT games.

    My point is shit changes. I've sat at BMO for CMNT games when the Jamaican-Canadians out sang us and outscored us. So when I sat in a sold out BMO for the first time in a couple years and watched the CMNT beat Panama I realized things have changed.

    It's not our job to figure out where the market in N. America is headed but it comes as no surprise to me that a company that bought in for 10mil 16 years ago might be bullish on the future.
    Agree. But having sat through all of this since 2007 - and NASL, by the way - Iím a bit skeptical. Beckham and Zlatan were used to move the needle, but not in that way. Insigne isnít them, from a TV perspective.

    Perhaps it is a plan around 2026, and the new competition with Mexico, and perhaps it will get attention. But youíd need some of the key CMNT and USMNT players to be playing in MLS, not Europe for that to really work. And that isnít happening.

    I hope it is, I hope the league continues to improve, and becomes of global force. But seems unlikely ATM despite whatever plans MLSE might have.
    Last edited by MightyDM; 01-03-2022 at 10:29 AM.

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    Also, I hope BMO is rocking again. I hope TFC makes a charge under Bob Bradley. I hope Ralph Priso returns fully recovered and has a real breakout season. I hope Oso and Richie go on loan to Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Agree. But having sat through all of this since 2007 - and NASL, by the way - I’m a bit skeptical. Beckham and Zlatan weren’t used to move the needle, but not in that way. Insigne isn’t them, from a TV perspective.

    Perhaps it is a plan around 2026, and the new competition with Mexico, and perhaps it will get attention. But you’d need some of the key CMNT and USMNT players to be playing in MLS, not Europe for that to really work. And that isn’t happening.

    I hope it is, I hope the league continues to improve, and becomes of global force. But seems unlikely ATM despite whatever plans MLSE might have.
    Individual players generate transient buzz, teams and competition prestige maintain it.

    The Insigne numbers are beyond ridiculous relative to whatever new revenue streams might come from media or stadium dollars. He either isn’t coming or MLSE is throwing the consideration of profitability out the window. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the latter.

    They’re losing money regardless so why not lose money in style and with an all out gamble, it’s not like they can’t absorb the losses anyway.

 

 

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