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  1. #1801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    pretty good satire.
    Indeed. Had to share

  2. #1802
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    We have yet to have a super team because we never had a full time centre forward, regardless of the price of a part time player in that position.
    2017 TFC was a 'super team' by MLS standards. Jozy played 27 games and potted 15 goals.
    Somehow Victor Vazquez landed in Toronto for dirt cheap in wages, and I bet you no decent int'l playmaker is ever going to land in TFC's laps like that again.

    But the most important signing of 2017 team was Drew Moor. Until I see a decent commanding CB who can organize the defence, you can sign all the Insignes of the world, but TFC is going to be at best something like 2016 (edit: it's suppose to say 2015) team. Going to be entertaining to watch on attack, but so frustrating on defence. Attack wins you games. Defence wins championships.
    Last edited by Yohan; 12-30-2021 at 01:42 PM.
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  3. #1803
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    4+ option?? But agree, thats a long contract for a 30 year old
    Yeah I think it's too long too, but Insigne doesn't nibble unless he's guaranteed big money for a long time.

    Insigne can take a short 2 yr contract or something at less money in Europe, then go to MLS or Middle East when 33 ish for the last big paycheck.

    Though the length of contract and the money being thrown at Insigne is like, is TFC that desperate to get Insigne? Hoping that he'll have the same impact as Giovinco?
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  4. #1804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    2017 TFC was a 'super team' by MLS standards. Jozy played 27 games and potted 15 goals.
    Somehow Victor Vazquez landed in Toronto for dirt cheap in wages, and I bet you no decent int'l playmaker is ever going to land in TFC's laps like that again.

    But the most important signing of 2017 team was Drew Moor. Until I see a decent commanding CB who can organize the defence, you can sign all the Insignes of the world, but TFC is going to be at best something like 2016 team. Going to be entertaining to watch on attack, but so frustrating on defence. Attack wins you games. Defence wins championships.
    Mostly agree, we lost in a shoot out in the finals after a 0-0 draw. No question, defense needs work but 2016 and that whole team was pretty excellent.

  5. #1805
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    I share the bewilderment at the signing. The one thing I disagree with you on Encso is Soteldo being a mercenary. Not that he isn't, but literally everyone on our team is. Fro, Manning to BB down to every player they're all here because Bogers turn on the money tap and if that money tap ever turns off they'd all go with it, every single one of them. Except in *extraordinarily* rare circumstances loyalty from players to a club is a marketing gimmick and not a real thing. They have themselves to look out for, a very finite amoiunt of time to make money and win trophies and that comes first for all of them - and rightly so. Seba was only here for the money, he even left us for the money, and the guy is TFCs GOAT so I don't see this as a bad thing it just is what it is. Francesco Tottis are the exception, not the norm. As for Soteldo, in general I think he had a pretty good season in what was incredibly trying circumstances with Covid and having absolutely 0 in terms of top level strikers to work with

    But I do also wonder about the spending. I was worried about the Jozy re-signing percisely because I thought it's only a matter of time until Bogers realize what a terrible ROI they've gotten with TFC and that deal was one of the worst examples. Basically I was worried it'd be the straw that broke the camels back. They've absolutely sunk money in and gotten what? Over the course of the money era, eg 'bloody big deal' to now, but for one season they've gotten a frankly very mediocre return on any key metric for the money to put in - points per game ($ to point earned we must be the worst team in MLS over the past 7 years, right?), MLS cups, CCLs, TV ratings, money recouped on selling players - there's nothing they've gotten that they couldn't have gotten a hell of alot cheaper and hasn't been gotten a hell of alot cheaper elsewhere

    So I'm pleasantly amazed by the numbers they're still willing to throw around here. I have no understanding as to why, that they see the next two WCs as massive opportunities is the only thing that makes sense, but at least they're doing it. As a fan I'll stop trying to understand for a bit and just enjoy the ride if this is the kind of signing we're going to be trying to make. At least until the other shoe drops.
    Last edited by JoesphNdo; 12-30-2021 at 01:43 PM.

  6. #1806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    Mostly agree, we lost in a shoot out in the finals after a 0-0 draw. No question, defense needs work but 2016 and that whole team was pretty excellent.
    I made an error. It was suppose to say 2015 team.
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  7. #1807
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    ^was wondering… lol

    These guys, lets call them the Italians or whoever they are… are going to love Toronto. The last two years have been brutal on Canadian teams.

    We are not out of this pandemic yet and there will still be adjustments but we love a winner (and it looks like we are intent on building one).

    The next 4 years if we are serious about building soccer in Canada are going to be pretty awesome.
    Last edited by Bushmancan; 12-30-2021 at 01:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I need help with the "let's go build a superteam" argument, from the ownership POV.

    TFC have been the top spending team in the league, by a lot, ever since the Leiweke era. They have been on the "superteam" model, at least in MLS terms, for quite a while. They have probably spent $5-10M a year more than, say, Seattle or LA Galaxy, the two teams I think they might most closely compare themselves to. (If I am wrong about these numbers, I am sure someone will correct me. The actual amounts aren't core to my argument, they have outspent all others by a lot.)

    So that's, to pick a number, call it $5M a year for 7 years, a $35M total incremental investment in being an "MLS superteam". Has it worked?

    Well, there's the second half of 2016, 2017 and the 2018 CCL run. For sure. Some of that was still historic by league standards

    Playoff outcomes are a bit random. The best measure of a superteam is regular season dominance. Which we didn't have after 2017. Far from it. We were one of the worst teams in the league in 2018 and 2021, which should be inconceivable in this model, and which surely had big negative financial consequences. For that matter we were pretty mediocre in 2019 most of the year, too. (yes, I know about the Cup run in 2019, and yes, we were weirdly good in Hartford in 2020. But these seem like things KC or Portland or Columbus or whomever do regularly, with much lower payrolls.)

    So what was the problem? I think it's the three DP rule. You have what happened here with Jozy (Soteldo and Pozo too) and you are screwed. Superteams can't work with this kind of vulnerability, it's why superteams in other leagues load up with so many good players.

    ________

    So imagine you are on the MLSE Board or Directors. You are inclined to believe. You want reasons to do this. TFC is maybe the only asset in the portfolio with serious growth potential.

    The big, call it $35M incremental investment you already made hasn't worked out great, and how, exactly, does paying DPs even more money than we did with Altidore, address this problem exactly? I mean, we can talk all we want about "sticking it to Dallas/Vancouver", but so long as the cap/DP rules are in place...

    The Qatar 2022 and WC 2026 arguments are big. They could be a real booster shot. But do you need to spend a hundred million or more to capitalize there? Isn't Montreal showing you a way to do that for a tiny fraction of those dollars?

    btw you don't get to just tell Bogers that asset values have gone to the moon, or MLSE are rich and it's rounding error. Budgets connect to revenues. Just because everyone in Toronto has a house now worth more than a million dollars, doesn't mean everyone is buying a Maserati.

    Bottom line: this isn't just a "vision" question, it's a structural question, you are not just going to be persuaded by a stirring speech from Tanenbaum. Who is 76 years old and is not guaranteed to be the one to see a 5-10 year plan of this magnitude through.
    I would say that most of the spend is a result of a desire for relevance. With the Leafs, Raptors, and Jays, we already struggle to be news worthy and reportable. Getting the big names, makes us noteworthy whether or not we win. If we combine noteworthiness with winning we become a worthwhile property for MLSE to hold.

  9. #1809
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    Even our homegrowns clamor to leave for Europe. There is no such thing as loyalty to a club anymore. There is only loyalty to one's career and maximizing career earnings.

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    Sounds like Manning is heading to Italy to talk to the man himself.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    I share the bewilderment at the signing. The one thing I disagree with you on Encso is Soteldo being a mercenary. Not that he isn't, but literally everyone on our team is. Fro, Manning to BB down to every player they're all here because Bogers turn on the money tap and if that money tap ever turns off they'd all go with it, every single one of them. Except in *extraordinarily* rare circumstances loyalty from players to a club is a marketing gimmick and not a real thing. They have themselves to look out for, a very finite amoiunt of time to make money and win trophies and that comes first for all of them - and rightly so. Seba was only here for the money, he even left us for the money, and the guy is TFCs GOAT so I don't see this as a bad thing it just is what it is. Francesco Tottis are the exception, not the norm. As for Soteldo, in general I think he had a pretty good season in what was incredibly trying circumstances with Covid and having absolutely 0 in terms of top level strikers to work with
    I see what you’re staying but I think there’s a grey area in here somewhere.

    Maybe loyalty is the wrong way to describe it but perhaps it’s engagement or buy-in to a project. We need guys who see their success as the team’s success. Liking the city is great if it helps you perform on the field.

    Both Giovinco and Solteldo would sell themselves to the highest bidder. But Giovinco is a borderline crazed maniac about winning and wants to help the team. Solteldo? As far as I can tell he gives zero fucks as long as he gets his.

  12. #1812
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    Manning could also use the Italian trip to speak to guys like Bellotti, Destro and Criscito in person provided some of those rumors are true.

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    Hope they send the Bradleys along, I think they would have more sway

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I see what you’re staying but I think there’s a grey area in here somewhere.

    Maybe loyalty is the wrong way to describe it but perhaps it’s engagement or buy-in to a project. We need guys who see their success as the team’s success. Liking the city is great if it helps you perform on the field.

    Both Giovinco and Solteldo would sell themselves to the highest bidder. But Giovinco is a borderline crazed maniac about winning and wants to help the team. Solteldo? As far as I can tell he gives zero fucks as long as he gets his.
    I hear you, I just think Soteldo gets harshly judged here. It's not easy moving to a country completely unlike where you came from and then have Covid in the middle and be stuck in a hotel in Florida for a large part of it while the team completely falls apart in general and then on the field he's given absolutely no forward to work with which he really needs. I think that's alot of factors to consider and honestly with that in mind I think he put in decent performances and put up good numbers

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    I hear you, I just think Soteldo gets harshly judged here. It's not easy moving to a country completely unlike where you came from and then have Covid in the middle and be stuck in a hotel in Florida for a large part of it while the team completely falls apart in general and then on the field he's given absolutely no forward to work with which he really needs. I think that's alot of factors to consider and honestly with that in mind I think he put in decent performances and put up good numbers
    Been thinking about your point on him above and here. I think you are quite right, on reflection.

    Soteldo came into a really bad situation. Armas was a joke. Beyond that, if Poz and/or Jozy had been mostly available, and we had been a competitive team, things could have been different.

    Also yes, they are all 100% about the money. Just the same as you or I would be.

    But I think the likelihood that Soteldo wouldn’t “fit” here was obviously high, and I do fear that less with Insigne.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Realistically since big money started flowing in 2014, there's be 2 and a half seasons max of strong performances. Mid-2016 to CCL 2018 and arguably first half 2020.

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    from what i saw yefe worked his butt off when he played...mullins and dywer in middle lol,3 -4 goals missed a couple pks and 10 assist in 24 games maybe 15 starts not bad for under 2 mil

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    I have to say, the more obvious road, if I was management and had been asked to invest big dollars, would be to go crazy on a U 22 strategy.

    Do what NYCFC did but kick it up 5x. Spend say $25M on three studs. If there is financial distress in Europe, it'll create opportunities in this market too.

    You have a shot a selling a guy for big money, which you don’t have with the Insigne/Bellotti idea.

    Rather than the super team, try to build an Ajax, Dortmund, Porto, a place young studs want to come on their way to the really big time.

    Its just a better recognition of who we are, what the league rules will ultimately facilitate, and what we might be able to accomplish.

    (But I am fine with Insigne!)
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  19. #1819
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Been thinking about your point on him above and here. I think you are quite right, on reflection.

    Soteldo came into a really bad situation. Armas was a joke. Beyond that, if Poz and/or Jozy had been mostly available, and we had been a competitive team, things could have been different.
    100% agree, I wouldn’t be opposed to him staying if we were going for a dominant No. 9 but there is no place for him with Insigne. I do think with a healthy Insigne, Poz and our midfield there will be space for everyone so even a reasonably solid No 9 will excel. A great one will dominate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I have to say, the more obvious road, if I was management and had been asked to invest big dollars, would be to go crazy on a U 22 strategy.

    Do what NYCFC did but kick it up 5x. Spend say $25M on three studs. If there is financial distress in Europe, it'll create opportunities in this market too.

    You have a shot a selling a guy for big money, which you don’t have with the Insigne/Bellotti idea.

    Rather than the super team, try to build an Ajax, Dortmund, Porto, a place young studs want to come on their way to the really big time.

    Its just a better recognition of who we are, what the league rules will ultimately facilitate, and what we might be able to accomplish.

    (But I am fine with Insigne!)
    NYFC has 12 to 15 imports on the roster,because of the stupid green card rule,that is a big advantage.

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    max salary for u22 initiative is 612,5k so even with transfer fees its not getting anywhere near 25m

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I have to say, the more obvious road, if I was management and had been asked to invest big dollars, would be to go crazy on a U 22 strategy.

    Do what NYCFC did but kick it up 5x. Spend say $25M on three studs. If there is financial distress in Europe, it'll create opportunities in this market too.

    You have a shot a selling a guy for big money, which you don’t have with the Insigne/Bellotti idea.

    Rather than the super team, try to build an Ajax, Dortmund, Porto, a place young studs want to come on their way to the really big time.

    Its just a better recognition of who we are, what the league rules will ultimately facilitate, and what we might be able to accomplish.

    (But I am fine with Insigne!)
    Yeah I agree with this 100%. Long term I think it is the much more sustainable approach. Insigne and co are potentially incredible, but it's an 'all eggs in one basket' approach. You have to assume Bogers don't keep the money tap on forever without return so it only takes a couple of busts before they cut the team off and if we haven't invested in youth and infrastructure we'd potentially be cut off without much to show for it. That's a worst case scenario for sure but this off season feels like a gigantic all in bet where, if it all goes well, we win big but if we lose that could be it for us as a super team for now.

    Basically if they throw this kind of money this off season then we BETTER start showing a return and fast, on field and off field.

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    I don't think Soteldo was awful, and I do agree he came into a bad situation, especially with Covid and barely seeing Toronto. But I also don't think he was the right player. With his dribbling ability he looked like he could be another Giovinco, but he is not a natural goal scorer. And he had absolutely no vision for the final ball. I know someone will say, "but he got a lot of assists." Yeah, I don't have the numbers on me, but I think a good chunk of those were second assists where someone else payed the final ball that released the goal scorer. He was extraordinarily bad at finding those unlike, say, Pozuelo who can find them blindfolded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    Yeah I agree with this 100%. Long term I think it is the much more sustainable approach. Insigne and co are potentially incredible, but it's an 'all eggs in one basket' approach. You have to assume Bogers don't keep the money tap on forever without return so it only takes a couple of busts before they cut the team off and if we haven't invested in youth and infrastructure we'd potentially be cut off without much to show for it. That's a worst case scenario for sure but this off season feels like a gigantic all in bet where, if it all goes well, we win big but if we lose that could be it for us as a super team for now.

    Basically if they throw this kind of money this off season then we BETTER start showing a return and fast, on field and off field.
    What do you mean "no return." TFC is worth 65 times what MLSE paid for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    What do you mean "no return." TFC is worth 65 times what MLSE paid for it.
    That's independent of the crazy spending. They could have spent 1/3 of what they have and it wouldn't have hurt their valuation by that amount

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    i dont get it....why are so many people so paranoid that we will become dallas or colorado.we seem to have this conversation every year

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post

    But the most important signing of 2017 team was Drew Moor. Until I see a decent commanding CB who can organize the defence, you can sign all the Insignes of the world, but TFC is going to be at best something like 2016 (edit: it's suppose to say 2015) team. Going to be entertaining to watch on attack, but so frustrating on defence. Attack wins you games. Defence wins championships.
    This is a point everyone seems to forget.

    When Drew moor got injured in 2018, our defence was in shambles. He never recovered 100% and it wasn't until Omar Gonzalez came in, that we were able to go to get our shit together and make a run to the MLS Cup finals and then finish 2nd the following year. When Omar faltered, so did the team.

    AGREE 1000000% We need a commanding CB and it should be the number 1 priority. Otherwise it doesn't matter who we sign up front, we'll be tripping over our feet coming out the back and we'll be bleeding goals left right and center.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    That's independent of the crazy spending. They could have spent 1/3 of what they have and it wouldn't have hurt their valuation by that amount
    Are Montreal and Vancouver worth anywhere near that? Or Colorado or Dallas?

    Regardless there has been a massive return that justifies being a big spender.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Are Montreal and Vancouver worth anywhere near that? Or Colorado or Dallas?

    Regardless there has been a massive return that justifies being a big spender.
    Granted this is 2019, so I defer to a more recent source https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-soccer-teams/

    Our valutation isn't all that special compared to the size of our market, we SHOULD be behind only LA or NY teams and even there they split their market in 2. I see us right behind Seattle and level with Portland, neither of whom have spent like us. So no, I don't think our spending has had a dramatic impact on our valutation. And why would it? It hasn't significantly driven the metrics that would drive valuation - TV and general revenue

    but I do admit, I flat out don't understand the economics of the moves we're looking at this off season so yeah honestly I'll try to worry less and just jump on the hype train. The owners clearly want to spend on the team so as a fan that's only good news for us

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I have to say, the more obvious road, if I was management and had been asked to invest big dollars, would be to go crazy on a U 22 strategy.

    Do what NYCFC did but kick it up 5x. Spend say $25M on three studs. If there is financial distress in Europe, it'll create opportunities in this market too.

    You have a shot a selling a guy for big money, which you don’t have with the Insigne/Bellotti idea.

    Rather than the super team, try to build an Ajax, Dortmund, Porto, a place young studs want to come on their way to the really big time.

    Its just a better recognition of who we are, what the league rules will ultimately facilitate, and what we might be able to accomplish.

    (But I am fine with Insigne!)
    Problem is that you're likely to end up with two stiffs like the ones Miami paid big bucks for, got no production from, and lost all that money on than some rare sellable star like Almiron, thus why it hasn't happened often in MLS ever. Whether the failure with those two Argie players reflects badly on Miami in further recruiting from there I don't know but it can't be good and it was just a bad look all around.

    There is no track record in MLS of buying and selling at an upcharge and that's not MLSE's goal anyway. It's eyes on the product and being a full on seller won't do that.

 

 

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