I also just want to add, I absolutely hope the Insigne thing is true. Same for Belotti. I mean, who wouldn't. If their hearts are in it.
I think it's important to try to understand things.
I don't really want mercenaries here. I think that's what Soteldo is. I don't think it ever works.
I fear the role agents and the SSH recruitment/renewal process play in these things. Would be happy to be proven wrong, but don't think my concerns are just "negativity".
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
I'm curious to know if the narrative Goodson mentioned a few pages ago is true: that TFC offered something in the range that most would consider reasonable for Insigne was rebuffed, then came back with double. Can think of a lot of unions who would be very happy if their employers negotiated that way!Originally Posted by ensco
Couple of things…
I would say our first few attempts at a super team were flawed. Not so much in that we played a few guys a boatload of money but more so that we picked the wrong horses. Defoe didn’t want to be here, Jozy was injury prone. We had the budget but not the know-how. You would hope things are better now. Not convinced the young DP route is the answer. In fact, I think it’s best to avoid these types unless it’s a domestic player with a clear track record.
Second, I wouldn’t be so sure the corner office is looking at this from a revenue perspective. Anyone who is taking too value oriented an approach in todays (overvalued) market is sitting on the sidelines. Even the most conservative voices in the room feel pressure to play. For an asset like this one with this much of an increase in valuation and good future prospects? I think they’d shovel cash at it and look for cash flows down the road but not right away.
Superteam and MLS wont happen,too many stupid rules,imports,tam gam,6mil cap,no doubt in my mind if mlse could spend 40- 50 mil on a roster they would but cant,so its mish mash of rosters...80k canadians and 7 mil dps,
I think the answer to Ensco’s point is that Manning, particularly with Curtis, was not pursuing the “super team”. Defoe and Bradley or Gio Jozy amd Bradley was a super team and Gio a brilliant brilliant signing. Poz is a tidy player but never Gio or Insigne or Defoe, and Soteldo not even in that conversation. If we are all in for Insigne, (and I still have doubts about his sincerity on this, hope I am wrong,) then it is a return to Leiweike “why can’t we be great”.
Yes Manning spent money. But it wasn’t with anywhere near the ambition level of this off-season seems to be. And if I am right in that, it explains MLSE: lots of money on decent players didn’t work so we will spend way more on great ones to become a dominant North American team, certainly most talked about, in the ru. Up to the World Cup. Sort of like the 70’s Argos. Although hopefully with better results.
They weren't persuing a 'super team' because they were trying to maintain a 'super team' because it was easier than building a new one. Classic Curtis move.
pretty good satire.
Indeed. Had to share
I share the bewilderment at the signing. The one thing I disagree with you on Encso is Soteldo being a mercenary. Not that he isn't, but literally everyone on our team is. Fro, Manning to BB down to every player they're all here because Bogers turn on the money tap and if that money tap ever turns off they'd all go with it, every single one of them. Except in *extraordinarily* rare circumstances loyalty from players to a club is a marketing gimmick and not a real thing. They have themselves to look out for, a very finite amoiunt of time to make money and win trophies and that comes first for all of them - and rightly so. Seba was only here for the money, he even left us for the money, and the guy is TFCs GOAT so I don't see this as a bad thing it just is what it is. Francesco Tottis are the exception, not the norm. As for Soteldo, in general I think he had a pretty good season in what was incredibly trying circumstances with Covid and having absolutely 0 in terms of top level strikers to work with
But I do also wonder about the spending. I was worried about the Jozy re-signing percisely because I thought it's only a matter of time until Bogers realize what a terrible ROI they've gotten with TFC and that deal was one of the worst examples. Basically I was worried it'd be the straw that broke the camels back. They've absolutely sunk money in and gotten what? Over the course of the money era, eg 'bloody big deal' to now, but for one season they've gotten a frankly very mediocre return on any key metric for the money to put in - points per game ($ to point earned we must be the worst team in MLS over the past 7 years, right?), MLS cups, CCLs, TV ratings, money recouped on selling players - there's nothing they've gotten that they couldn't have gotten a hell of alot cheaper and hasn't been gotten a hell of alot cheaper elsewhere
So I'm pleasantly amazed by the numbers they're still willing to throw around here. I have no understanding as to why, that they see the next two WCs as massive opportunities is the only thing that makes sense, but at least they're doing it. As a fan I'll stop trying to understand for a bit and just enjoy the ride if this is the kind of signing we're going to be trying to make. At least until the other shoe drops.
Last edited by JoesphNdo; 12-30-2021 at 01:43 PM.
^was wondering… lol
These guys, lets call them the Italians or whoever they are… are going to love Toronto. The last two years have been brutal on Canadian teams.
We are not out of this pandemic yet and there will still be adjustments but we love a winner (and it looks like we are intent on building one).
The next 4 years if we are serious about building soccer in Canada are going to be pretty awesome.
Last edited by Bushmancan; 12-30-2021 at 01:43 PM.
I would say that most of the spend is a result of a desire for relevance. With the Leafs, Raptors, and Jays, we already struggle to be news worthy and reportable. Getting the big names, makes us noteworthy whether or not we win. If we combine noteworthiness with winning we become a worthwhile property for MLSE to hold.
Even our homegrowns clamor to leave for Europe. There is no such thing as loyalty to a club anymore. There is only loyalty to one's career and maximizing career earnings.
Sounds like Manning is heading to Italy to talk to the man himself.
Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/footballitalia/status/1476625675402584071?s=20
I see what you’re staying but I think there’s a grey area in here somewhere.
Maybe loyalty is the wrong way to describe it but perhaps it’s engagement or buy-in to a project. We need guys who see their success as the team’s success. Liking the city is great if it helps you perform on the field.
Both Giovinco and Solteldo would sell themselves to the highest bidder. But Giovinco is a borderline crazed maniac about winning and wants to help the team. Solteldo? As far as I can tell he gives zero fucks as long as he gets his.
I hear you, I just think Soteldo gets harshly judged here. It's not easy moving to a country completely unlike where you came from and then have Covid in the middle and be stuck in a hotel in Florida for a large part of it while the team completely falls apart in general and then on the field he's given absolutely no forward to work with which he really needs. I think that's alot of factors to consider and honestly with that in mind I think he put in decent performances and put up good numbers
Been thinking about your point on him above and here. I think you are quite right, on reflection.
Soteldo came into a really bad situation. Armas was a joke. Beyond that, if Poz and/or Jozy had been mostly available, and we had been a competitive team, things could have been different.
Also yes, they are all 100% about the money. Just the same as you or I would be.
But I think the likelihood that Soteldo wouldn’t “fit” here was obviously high, and I do fear that less with Insigne.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
100% agree, I wouldn’t be opposed to him staying if we were going for a dominant No. 9 but there is no place for him with Insigne. I do think with a healthy Insigne, Poz and our midfield there will be space for everyone so even a reasonably solid No 9 will excel. A great one will dominate.
Manning could also use the Italian trip to speak to guys like Bellotti, Destro and Criscito in person provided some of those rumors are true.
Hope they send the Bradleys along, I think they would have more sway
Realistically since big money started flowing in 2014, there's be 2 and a half seasons max of strong performances. Mid-2016 to CCL 2018 and arguably first half 2020.
from what i saw yefe worked his butt off when he played...mullins and dywer in middle lol,3 -4 goals missed a couple pks and 10 assist in 24 games maybe 15 starts not bad for under 2 mil
I have to say, the more obvious road, if I was management and had been asked to invest big dollars, would be to go crazy on a U 22 strategy.
Do what NYCFC did but kick it up 5x. Spend say $25M on three studs. If there is financial distress in Europe, it'll create opportunities in this market too.
You have a shot a selling a guy for big money, which you don’t have with the Insigne/Bellotti idea.
Rather than the super team, try to build an Ajax, Dortmund, Porto, a place young studs want to come on their way to the really big time.
Its just a better recognition of who we are, what the league rules will ultimately facilitate, and what we might be able to accomplish.
(But I am fine with Insigne!)
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
NYFC has 12 to 15 imports on the roster,because of the stupid green card rule,that is a big advantage.
Yeah I agree with this 100%. Long term I think it is the much more sustainable approach. Insigne and co are potentially incredible, but it's an 'all eggs in one basket' approach. You have to assume Bogers don't keep the money tap on forever without return so it only takes a couple of busts before they cut the team off and if we haven't invested in youth and infrastructure we'd potentially be cut off without much to show for it. That's a worst case scenario for sure but this off season feels like a gigantic all in bet where, if it all goes well, we win big but if we lose that could be it for us as a super team for now.
Basically if they throw this kind of money this off season then we BETTER start showing a return and fast, on field and off field.
What do you mean "no return." TFC is worth 65 times what MLSE paid for it.
That's independent of the crazy spending. They could have spent 1/3 of what they have and it wouldn't have hurt their valuation by that amount
Are Montreal and Vancouver worth anywhere near that? Or Colorado or Dallas?
Regardless there has been a massive return that justifies being a big spender.
Problem is that you're likely to end up with two stiffs like the ones Miami paid big bucks for, got no production from, and lost all that money on than some rare sellable star like Almiron, thus why it hasn't happened often in MLS ever. Whether the failure with those two Argie players reflects badly on Miami in further recruiting from there I don't know but it can't be good and it was just a bad look all around.
There is no track record in MLS of buying and selling at an upcharge and that's not MLSE's goal anyway. It's eyes on the product and being a full on seller won't do that.
I don't fully understand what happened in Miami but I am very wary of the South American market, for us. We are not that team and this is not that city.
I would say the U 22 signing type I would most like us to copy is Dejan Joveljic at LAG. He cost $4M out of Eintracht Frankfurt, and couldn't get into Frankfurt's lineup in part because they signed... Borre!
But Joveljic had 18 goals in 34 games on loan in the Austrian league last year. He got limited minutes at LAG because Chicharito is in front of him, so we will see next year ... but this is the U 22 player profile I would seek for TFC.... and if they all came from Italy, that would be fine.
Last edited by ensco; 12-30-2021 at 05:42 PM.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
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