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  1. #1771
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    True enough. I just found it funny that he'll reach out about a silly quote and play dumb and deaf to the global storm that was yesterday morning/afternoon.

    Seba's agent might have reached out to Manning

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    We could still negotiate that after signing him, we did the same thing with Giovinco.
    Insigne is still a regular starter for Napoli, while Giovinco was a fringe player for Juve.

    Napoli being in the knockout stages of Europa League and in position for Champions League next season, I doubt Napoli would easily give up Insigne before end of the season.

    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  3. #1773
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    Seems Italian sources have adjusted their salary reports.

  4. #1774
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    Pocket change.

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    MLSE got an MLS franchise for, what, $10 million? And TFC is now worth over $650 million? I think MLSE can invest a little in the soccer operations.

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    Been following Insigne on Instagram for awhile and noticed today he put up a nice birthday wish for his best buddy, Dom Criscito. Obviously it could be just a friend sharing his love for his buddy on his birthday, but those Criscito rumors make a lot more sense when you consider he and Insigne are super tight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    MLSE got an MLS franchise for, what, $10 million? And TFC is now worth over $650 million? I think MLSE can invest a little in the soccer operations.
    And they make money. I take that Charlotte owner's interview that he got in massive shit for as the truth. He said with all the advertising streams even the below average MLS teams make a small profit.

  8. #1778
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    I really find that five year angle hard to believe

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    4+ option?? But agree, thats a long contract for a 30 year old

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    I need help with the "let's go build a superteam" argument, from the ownership POV.

    TFC have been the top spending team in the league, by a lot, ever since the Leiweke era. They have been on the "superteam" model, at least in MLS terms, for quite a while. They have probably spent $5-10M a year more than, say, Seattle or LA Galaxy, the two teams I think they might most closely compare themselves to. (If I am wrong about these numbers, I am sure someone will correct me. The actual amounts aren't core to my argument, they have outspent all others by a lot.)

    So that's, to pick a number, call it $5M a year for 7 years, a $35M total incremental investment in being an "MLS superteam". Has it worked?

    Well, there's the second half of 2016, 2017 and the 2018 CCL run. For sure. Some of that was still historic by league standards

    Playoff outcomes are a bit random. The best measure of a superteam is regular season dominance. Which we didn't have after 2017. Far from it. We were one of the worst teams in the league in 2018 and 2021, which should be inconceivable in this model, and which surely had big negative financial consequences. For that matter we were pretty mediocre in 2019 most of the year, too. (yes, I know about the Cup run in 2019, and yes, we were weirdly good in Hartford in 2020. But these seem like things KC or Portland or Columbus or whomever do regularly, with much lower payrolls.)

    So what was the problem? I think it's the three DP rule. You have what happened here with Jozy (Soteldo and Pozo too) and you are screwed. Superteams can't work with this kind of vulnerability, it's why superteams in other leagues load up with so many good players.

    ________

    So imagine you are on the MLSE Board or Directors. You are inclined to believe. You want reasons to do this. TFC is maybe the only asset in the portfolio with serious growth potential.

    The big, call it $35M incremental investment you already made hasn't worked out great, and how, exactly, does paying DPs even more money than we did with Altidore, address this problem exactly? I mean, we can talk all we want about "sticking it to Dallas/Vancouver", but so long as the cap/DP rules are in place...

    The Qatar 2022 and WC 2026 arguments are big. They could be a real booster shot. But do you need to spend a hundred million or more to capitalize there? Isn't Montreal showing you a way to do that for a tiny fraction of those dollars?

    btw you don't get to just tell Bogers that asset values have gone to the moon, or MLSE are rich and it's rounding error. Budgets connect to revenues. Just because everyone in Toronto has a house now worth more than a million dollars, doesn't mean everyone is buying a Maserati.

    Bottom line: this isn't just a "vision" question, it's a structural question, you are not just going to be persuaded by a stirring speech from Tanenbaum. Who is 76 years old and is not guaranteed to be the one to see a 5-10 year plan of this magnitude through.
    Last edited by ensco; 12-30-2021 at 11:06 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I need help with the "let's go build a superteam" argument, from the ownership POV.

    TFC have been the top spending team in the league, by a lot, ever since the Leiweke era. They have been on the "superteam" model, at least in MLS terms, for quite a while. They have probably spent $5-10M a year more than, say, Seattle or LA Galaxy, the two teams I think they might most closely compare themselves to. (If I am wrong about these numbers, I am sure someone will correct me. The actual amounts aren't core to my argument, they have outspent all others by a lot.)

    So that's, to pick a number, call it $5M a year for 7 years, a $35M total incremental investment in being an "MLS superteam". Has it worked?

    Well, there's the second half of 2016, 2017 and the 2018 CCL run. For sure. Some of that was still historic by league standards

    Against that is the pretty weak regular season performance on 2018-2021 (yes, I know about the Cup run in 2019, and yes, we were weirdly good in Hartford in 2020. But these seem like things KC or Portland or Columbus or whomever do regularly, with much lower payrolls.)

    Playoff outcomes are a bit random. The best measure of a superteam is regular season dominance. Which we didn't have after 2017. Far from it. We were one of the worst teams in the league in 2018 and 2021, which should be inconceivable in this model, and which surely had big negative financial consequences. For that matter we were pretty mediocre in 2019 most of the year, too.

    So what was the problem? I think it's the three DP rule. You have what happened here with Jozy, and you are screwed. Superteams can't work wih this kind of vulnerability, it's why superteams in other leagues load up with so many good players.

    ________

    So imagine you are on the MLSE Board or Directors. You are inclined to believe. You want reasons to do this. TFC is maybe the only asset in the portfolio with serious growth potential.

    You need data/facts. The big, call it $35M incremental investment you already made hasn't worked out great, and how, exactly, does paying DPs even more money than we did with Altidore, address this problem exactly? I mean, we can talk all we want about "sticking it to Dallas/Vancouver", but so long as the cap/DP rules are in place...

    The Qatar 2022 and WC 2026 arguments are big. They could be a real booster shot. But do you need to spend a hundreds million or more to capitalize there? Isn't Montreal showing you a way to do that for a tiny fraction of those dollars?

    Bottom line: this isn't just a "vision" question, it's a structursal question, you are not just going to be persuaded by a stirring speech from Tanenbaum. Who is 76 years old and is unlikely to be the one to see this plan through.
    It hasn't worked out badly either. Arguably we've been a top 2-3 team since 2016. We were the closest any team has come to the CCL champions. I think the real goal is to win the CCL, as others have said, so we can legitimately lay some claim to being amongst the biggest club in NA, including the Mexican teams. We really can't win the CCL without a few big players. I can see going back to the approach that got us there: a high profile diminutive Italian forward!

    Good points though. Is the extra spend on an even higher profile player than Giovinco necessary? I don't know. He is going to be a massive draw to BMO Field though, at a time where they probably need a little extra buzz to get people back and be a story again in Toronto.

  12. #1782
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I need help with the "let's go build a superteam" argument, from the ownership POV.

    TFC have been the top spending team in the league, by a lot, ever since the Leiweke era. They have been on the "superteam" model, at least in MLS terms, for quite a while. They have probably spent $5-10M a year more than, say, Seattle or LA Galaxy, the two teams I think they might most closely compare themselves to. (If I am wrong about these numbers, I am sure someone will correct me. The actual amounts aren't core to my argument, they have outspent all others by a lot.)

    So that's, to pick a number, call it $5M a year for 7 years, a $35M total incremental investment in being an "MLS superteam". Has it worked?

    Well, there's the second half of 2016, 2017 and the 2018 CCL run. For sure. Some of that was still historic by league standards

    Playoff outcomes are a bit random. The best measure of a superteam is regular season dominance. Which we didn't have after 2017. Far from it. We were one of the worst teams in the league in 2018 and 2021, which should be inconceivable in this model, and which surely had big negative financial consequences. For that matter we were pretty mediocre in 2019 most of the year, too. (yes, I know about the Cup run in 2019, and yes, we were weirdly good in Hartford in 2020. But these seem like things KC or Portland or Columbus or whomever do regularly, with much lower payrolls.)

    So what was the problem? I think it's the three DP rule. You have what happened here with Jozy (Soteldo and Pozo too) and you are screwed. Superteams can't work with this kind of vulnerability, it's why superteams in other leagues load up with so many good players.

    ________

    So imagine you are on the MLSE Board or Directors. You are inclined to believe. You want reasons to do this. TFC is maybe the only asset in the portfolio with serious growth potential.

    The big, call it $35M incremental investment you already made hasn't worked out great, and how, exactly, does paying DPs even more money than we did with Altidore, address this problem exactly? I mean, we can talk all we want about "sticking it to Dallas/Vancouver", but so long as the cap/DP rules are in place...

    The Qatar 2022 and WC 2026 arguments are big. They could be a real booster shot. But do you need to spend a hundred million or more to capitalize there? Isn't Montreal showing you a way to do that for a tiny fraction of those dollars?

    btw you don't get to just tell Bogers that asset values have gone to the moon, or MLSE are rich and it's rounding error. Budgets connect to revenues. Just because everyone in Toronto has a house now worth more than a million dollars, doesn't mean everyone is buying a Maserati.

    Bottom line: this isn't just a "vision" question, it's a structural question, you are not just going to be persuaded by a stirring speech from Tanenbaum. Who is 76 years old and is not guaranteed to be the one to see a 5-10 year plan of this magnitude through.
    This is an excellent evaluation in my view. They need to take advantage of the young TAM money thing this year, so that they can build quality depth.

    And they could if they went in for Diego Lainez, instead of Andrea Belotti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    This is an excellent evaluation in my view. They need to take advantage of the young TAM money thing this year, so that they can build quality depth.

    And they could if they went in for Diego Lainez, instead of Andrea Belotti.
    I don't understand why MLS hasn't raided Mexican players more. It's right in our backyard, and there is so much talent depth there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    I don't understand why MLS hasn't raided Mexican players more. It's right in our backyard, and there is so much talent depth there.
    Front three: Insigne, Akinola/Destro, Lainez

    Wrecks MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    My wild ass guess on Insigne is that TFC is very much a second choice, maybe even third choice. The only reason why TFC is even in the game is that TFC is willing to park a truck full of money at Insigne's house. I think Insigne knows he's still got value in Europe, and he might get something close to what he's making now if he waits.

    I hope TFC's done their homework on Insigne as a player, but more importantly, the person. Because throwing this much money at him and he doesn't seem too motivated to want to play for TFC... it reeks of one of Chinese Super League signings in the years past.

    Also, I'd prefer to have a DP who can start the season with TFC, not show up in the summer and the season is half done.
    Totally agree, cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I need help with the "let's go build a superteam" argument, from the ownership POV.

    TFC have been the top spending team in the league, by a lot, ever since the Leiweke era. They have been on the "superteam" model, at least in MLS terms, for quite a while. They have probably spent $5-10M a year more than, say, Seattle or LA Galaxy, the two teams I think they might most closely compare themselves to. (If I am wrong about these numbers, I am sure someone will correct me. The actual amounts aren't core to my argument, they have outspent all others by a lot.)

    So that's, to pick a number, call it $5M a year for 7 years, a $35M total incremental investment in being an "MLS superteam". Has it worked?

    Well, there's the second half of 2016, 2017 and the 2018 CCL run. For sure. Some of that was still historic by league standards

    Playoff outcomes are a bit random. The best measure of a superteam is regular season dominance. Which we didn't have after 2017. Far from it. We were one of the worst teams in the league in 2018 and 2021, which should be inconceivable in this model, and which surely had big negative financial consequences. For that matter we were pretty mediocre in 2019 most of the year, too. (yes, I know about the Cup run in 2019, and yes, we were weirdly good in Hartford in 2020. But these seem like things KC or Portland or Columbus or whomever do regularly, with much lower payrolls.)

    So what was the problem? I think it's the three DP rule. You have what happened here with Jozy (Soteldo and Pozo too) and you are screwed. Superteams can't work with this kind of vulnerability, it's why superteams in other leagues load up with so many good players.

    ________

    So imagine you are on the MLSE Board or Directors. You are inclined to believe. You want reasons to do this. TFC is maybe the only asset in the portfolio with serious growth potential.

    The big, call it $35M incremental investment you already made hasn't worked out great, and how, exactly, does paying DPs even more money than we did with Altidore, address this problem exactly? I mean, we can talk all we want about "sticking it to Dallas/Vancouver", but so long as the cap/DP rules are in place...

    The Qatar 2022 and WC 2026 arguments are big. They could be a real booster shot. But do you need to spend a hundred million or more to capitalize there? Isn't Montreal showing you a way to do that for a tiny fraction of those dollars?

    btw you don't get to just tell Bogers that asset values have gone to the moon, or MLSE are rich and it's rounding error. Budgets connect to revenues. Just because everyone in Toronto has a house now worth more than a million dollars, doesn't mean everyone is buying a Maserati.

    Bottom line: this isn't just a "vision" question, it's a structural question, you are not just going to be persuaded by a stirring speech from Tanenbaum. Who is 76 years old and is not guaranteed to be the one to see a 5-10 year plan of this magnitude through.
    I agree with your points made in the top half, I think the impact you are forgetting is that we spent a lot of money on poor choices of players. That was Ali Curtis not knowing how to build a team and not communicating with his coach on incoming/outgoing players. You can spend big money and still suck, the model of spending big money working on not working is not black and white. Man city spent more money under Mancini than Guardiola, and yet Guardiola has done more with less spent money. The money put them in contention, but the coach put them over the top.

    We spent big money on DP’s back before Vanney/Bez, they were just the first ones to do it properly. Saying lieweke made us spend big is incorrect in my view (and historical salary data). It was just him putting the right people in charge to spend it properly and building the gusto behind them. Hopefully BB can bring that back.

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    For what it’s worth, Will Forbes is really pushing the Insigne / Belotti story. Latest tweet showing the two in red and stating how this will go down as MLS history.

    Ensco: To me it’s the simple fact that we’re (potentially) in the market for in form and still in their prime, key European players. Assuming this helps to lift Poz which I don’t see why it wouldn’t, then our DPs would be unmatched in the league. That will get major media attention, fans back in the stands and could reinvigorate the youth on this team to want to stick it out for a couple more years to see what they can do here. If I’m playing alongside Isigne and contributing regularly, that’ll only increase my Value.

    On top of these three DPs we can sign a young U22 DP if I’m not mistaken. I think the vision here is to become that local powerhouse club. I’m sure some of TFC management were watching Tigres take on Bayern at the club World Cup and thought that they can be there.

    At the end of the day, if MLSE is able to attract this talent but have to pay through the roof for it (for now) then why not? The more we do this the more we become a legitimate option for other similar players out there. If this happens to unfold as I see it, it’s only a matter of time before other MLS teams need to follow suit or be left behind.

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    I also just want to add, I absolutely hope the Insigne thing is true. Same for Belotti. I mean, who wouldn't. If their hearts are in it.

    I think it's important to try to understand things.

    I don't really want mercenaries here. I think that's what Soteldo is. I don't think it ever works.

    I fear the role agents and the SSH recruitment/renewal process play in these things. Would be happy to be proven wrong, but don't think my concerns are just "negativity".
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I also just want to add, I absolutely hope the Insigne thing is true. Same for Belotti. I mean, who wouldn't. If their hearts are in it.

    I think it's important to try to understand things.

    I don't really want mercenaries here. I think that's what Soteldo is. I don't think it ever works.

    I fear the role agents and the SSH recruitment/renewal process play in these things. Would be happy to be proven wrong, but don't think my concerns are just "negativity".
    I'm curious to know if the narrative Goodson mentioned a few pages ago is true: that TFC offered something in the range that most would consider reasonable for Insigne was rebuffed, then came back with double. Can think of a lot of unions who would be very happy if their employers negotiated that way!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I need help with the "let's go build a superteam" argument, from the ownership POV.

    TFC have been the top spending team in the league, by a lot, ever since the Leiweke era. They have been on the "superteam" model, at least in MLS terms, for quite a while. They have probably spent $5-10M a year more than, say, Seattle or LA Galaxy, the two teams I think they might most closely compare themselves to. (If I am wrong about these numbers, I am sure someone will correct me. The actual amounts aren't core to my argument, they have outspent all others by a lot.)

    So that's, to pick a number, call it $5M a year for 7 years, a $35M total incremental investment in being an "MLS superteam". Has it worked?

    Well, there's the second half of 2016, 2017 and the 2018 CCL run. For sure. Some of that was still historic by league standards

    Playoff outcomes are a bit random. The best measure of a superteam is regular season dominance. Which we didn't have after 2017. Far from it. We were one of the worst teams in the league in 2018 and 2021, which should be inconceivable in this model, and which surely had big negative financial consequences. For that matter we were pretty mediocre in 2019 most of the year, too. (yes, I know about the Cup run in 2019, and yes, we were weirdly good in Hartford in 2020. But these seem like things KC or Portland or Columbus or whomever do regularly, with much lower payrolls.)

    So what was the problem? I think it's the three DP rule. You have what happened here with Jozy (Soteldo and Pozo too) and you are screwed. Superteams can't work with this kind of vulnerability, it's why superteams in other leagues load up with so many good players.

    ________

    So imagine you are on the MLSE Board or Directors. You are inclined to believe. You want reasons to do this. TFC is maybe the only asset in the portfolio with serious growth potential.

    The big, call it $35M incremental investment you already made hasn't worked out great, and how, exactly, does paying DPs even more money than we did with Altidore, address this problem exactly? I mean, we can talk all we want about "sticking it to Dallas/Vancouver", but so long as the cap/DP rules are in place...

    The Qatar 2022 and WC 2026 arguments are big. They could be a real booster shot. But do you need to spend a hundred million or more to capitalize there? Isn't Montreal showing you a way to do that for a tiny fraction of those dollars?

    btw you don't get to just tell Bogers that asset values have gone to the moon, or MLSE are rich and it's rounding error. Budgets connect to revenues. Just because everyone in Toronto has a house now worth more than a million dollars, doesn't mean everyone is buying a Maserati.

    Bottom line: this isn't just a "vision" question, it's a structural question, you are not just going to be persuaded by a stirring speech from Tanenbaum. Who is 76 years old and is not guaranteed to be the one to see a 5-10 year plan of this magnitude through.
    Couple of things…

    I would say our first few attempts at a super team were flawed. Not so much in that we played a few guys a boatload of money but more so that we picked the wrong horses. Defoe didn’t want to be here, Jozy was injury prone. We had the budget but not the know-how. You would hope things are better now. Not convinced the young DP route is the answer. In fact, I think it’s best to avoid these types unless it’s a domestic player with a clear track record.

    Second, I wouldn’t be so sure the corner office is looking at this from a revenue perspective. Anyone who is taking too value oriented an approach in todays (overvalued) market is sitting on the sidelines. Even the most conservative voices in the room feel pressure to play. For an asset like this one with this much of an increase in valuation and good future prospects? I think they’d shovel cash at it and look for cash flows down the road but not right away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Front three: Insigne, Akinola/Destro, Lainez

    Wrecks MLS.

    Here's my initial feeling on Akinola, he isn't ruthless. As much as we have the disappointment in Jozy's health. He has scored goals that none of our other strikers could... he finishes. Akinola and (even more so Achara) have not proven that to me. Now you are right they are young but i don't see it, i was really hoping for Achara.

    Belotti would scare the crap out of MLS, being fed by Insigne or Poz, absolutely lethal. Go back and watch Poz in Belgium, can't remember the attackers but he was incredible at unlocking them... we are relying on Poz too much, to score. Give him support and space and look out.

    We still need work on the back but if BB gets them excited and playing hard again and not jogging back, that will make an incredible difference. Our spirit got crushed as much as anything last year...fix that and that is like an additional TAM player in the back four on its own..

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    Superteam and MLS wont happen,too many stupid rules,imports,tam gam,6mil cap,no doubt in my mind if mlse could spend 40- 50 mil on a roster they would but cant,so its mish mash of rosters...80k canadians and 7 mil dps,

  23. #1793
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I need help with the "let's go build a superteam" argument, from the ownership POV.
    We have yet to have a super team because we never had a full time centre forward, regardless of the price of a part time player in that position.

    Also your question of whether it worked has two ways to look at it; firstly minus the 2 off years (2018 & 2021) we've been competitive and challenging every season which leads into the second and more important issue; money coming in. Obviously there is and it is worth the investment. Like I mentioned earlier, the Charlotte owner spoke out of turn about this and pointed at the "ambitious" teams making a good profit and even the below average teams making a small profit. We don't know all the revenue streams MLSE/TFC have worked here but it's needless to say that a team with 'stars', that is competitive, and has more eyes on it will equal more money coming in. Also we have a probable advantage as we're the only team in Canada with ambition and 'star' power so we will dominate national football advertising opportunities here over the other two who chose different routes to be competitive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post

    So imagine you are on the MLSE Board or Directors. You are inclined to believe. You want reasons to do this. TFC is maybe the only asset in the portfolio with serious growth potential.

    The big, call it $35M incremental investment you already made hasn't worked out great, and how, exactly, does paying DPs even more money than we did with Altidore, address this problem exactly? I mean, we can talk all we want about "sticking it to Dallas/Vancouver", but so long as the cap/DP rules are in place...

    The Qatar 2022 and WC 2026 arguments are big. They could be a real booster shot. But do you need to spend a hundred million or more to capitalize there? Isn't Montreal showing you a way to do that for a tiny fraction of those dollars?

    btw you don't get to just tell Bogers that asset values have gone to the moon, or MLSE are rich and it's rounding error. Budgets connect to revenues. Just because everyone in Toronto has a house now worth more than a million dollars, doesn't mean everyone is buying a Maserati.

    Bottom line: this isn't just a "vision" question, it's a structural question, you are not just going to be persuaded by a stirring speech from Tanenbaum. Who is 76 years old and is not guaranteed to be the one to see a 5-10 year plan of this magnitude through.
    The biggest reason that I can think of is that MLSE is owned by media conglomerates, so they have invested interests in trying to create excitement around the teams to help drive viewership on their channels.
    Just think about the way all the teams were run in the 2003-2012 era when OTP was the majority stakeholder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wopchop View Post
    The biggest reason that I can think of is that MLSE is owned by media conglomerates, so they have invested interests in trying to create excitement around the teams to help drive viewership on their channels.
    Just think about the way all the teams were run in the 2003-2012 era when OTP was the majority stakeholder.

    MLS rights for Canada are up for grabs this coming year - we will know how serious Bogers is about all this in the next 12 months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    MLS rights for Canada are up for grabs this coming year - we will know how serious Bogers is about all this in the next 12 months.
    Yes, that should be interesting.
    But really, who is the competition? A streamer?
    Hard to believe either would let the rights slip away, when they are invested in the content.

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    I think the answer to Ensco’s point is that Manning, particularly with Curtis, was not pursuing the “super team”. Defoe and Bradley or Gio Jozy amd Bradley was a super team and Gio a brilliant brilliant signing. Poz is a tidy player but never Gio or Insigne or Defoe, and Soteldo not even in that conversation. If we are all in for Insigne, (and I still have doubts about his sincerity on this, hope I am wrong,) then it is a return to Leiweike “why can’t we be great”.

    Yes Manning spent money. But it wasn’t with anywhere near the ambition level of this off-season seems to be. And if I am right in that, it explains MLSE: lots of money on decent players didn’t work so we will spend way more on great ones to become a dominant North American team, certainly most talked about, in the ru. Up to the World Cup. Sort of like the 70’s Argos. Although hopefully with better results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I think the answer to Ensco’s point is that Manning, particularly with Curtis, was not pursuing the “super team”.
    They weren't persuing a 'super team' because they were trying to maintain a 'super team' because it was easier than building a new one. Classic Curtis move.

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    pretty good satire.

 

 

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