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  1. #1141
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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    Not sure if you're getting at what we should be able to do or are legally able to. TFC can legally sign him - TFC did it and have done similar things before. I agree there's questionable morality in signing a young player (particularly to a very long term contract) and also selling/profiting off of that player when we likely weren't compensating them for the value they brought to the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by rydermike View Post
    He's on a six year deal with us (confirmed by Josh Kloke of the Athletic link below). He's completed 2 of those years, so we don't need to re-sign him, he's already signed. He was signed at age 15 with the intention of selling him at 18 or 19.
    https://theathletic.com/2530082/2021...ty-toronto-fc/
    Players signed before age 18 are signed to youth contracts which are not valid for more than three years, according to FIFA regulations. So we can't have signed him to a six year deal, unless he has options after year three making it non-binding. (regulation 18.2)

    Even if he were of age, the maximum binding length of a FIFA-sanctioned deal is five years.... so we can't have signed him to six.

    International Transfers are only permitted over age 18, except where parents are accompanying the teen to live and an exception has been granted by FIFA.

    https://www.icsspe.org/system/files/...%20Players.pdf
    Last edited by jloome; 12-14-2021 at 08:34 PM. Reason: Source

  2. #1142
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    Yeah six year deals are not a thing, especially at 15.

    TFC is going to have a lot of work to do, loosing all these young players, shipping out deadwood, and suddenly our roster can barely field a first team.

  3. #1143
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    There is more to this than the FIFA regulations. Child labour laws, for a start… I assume Phonzie got most of the Bayern fee, which is why that one didn’t go to court.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    There is more to this than the FIFA regulations. Child labour laws, for a start… I assume Phonzie got most of the Bayern fee, which is why that one didn’t go to court.
    He didn't sign for them until he was 18, technically. They agreed terms in advance and he stayed with Vancouver until the end of the season, because he was still 17.

    There was nothing illegal about it.

  5. #1145
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    He didn't sign for them until he was 18, technically. They agreed terms in advance and he stayed with Vancouver until the end of the season, because he was still 17.

    There was nothing illegal about it.
    Why would Vancouver have been entitled to a single penny?
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  6. #1146
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Why would Vancouver have been entitled to a single penny?
    He was still under contract for a year. You can sign a deal before 18, and he had a three-year deal with the Whitecaps (2016 through 2018).

    So they had to pay a transfer if they wanted him immediately. It also allowed them to negotiate terms before he was a free agent and other clubs came in with competing salary offers.

    In effect, Vancouver had his rights for six more months but to beat the competition out Bayern bought him, rather than wait for the deal to expire.
    Last edited by jloome; 12-14-2021 at 09:16 PM.

  7. #1147
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Why would Vancouver have been entitled to a single penny?
    Dude, you're just making stuff up at this point

  8. #1148
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    Listen, I get that this happens. The law is not clearly established (although everybody on the inside knows the score) and the kids and their parents are intimidated into going along with things.

    Very symmetrical with the situation in NCAA basketball or football, or junior hockey. Grownups making millions off kids via intimidation.

    It's bad. I don’t know how it ends, but it has to.

    TFC deserve nothing for JMR.
    Last edited by ensco; 12-14-2021 at 09:20 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  9. #1149
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Listen, I get that this happens. The law is not clear and the kids and their parents are intimidated into going along with things.

    Very symmetrical with the situation in NCAA basketball or football, or junior hockey. Grownups making money off kids via intimidation.

    It's bad. I don’t know how it ends, but it has to.

    TFC deserve nothing for JMR.
    You are making a very thoughtful point Ensco. Interesting.

  10. #1150
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Listen, I get that this happens. The law is not clear and the kids and their parents are intimidated into going along with things.

    Very symmetrical with the situation in NCAA basketball or football, or junior hockey. Grownups making money off kids via intimidation.

    It's bad. I don’t know how it ends, but it has to.

    TFC deserve nothing for JMR.
    We get compensated under FIFA development regs every time a player we developed transfers up to age 23. Thanks to MLS signing up a few seasons ago, even if he goes on a free transfer we get paid.

    So, Julian Dunn signing at 22 will net us something. Not much, but better than nothing for the four years they invested in him.

    They're usually pretty small, though. But given that he's still very raw, I don't know what TFC should expect. He's been with the club for four years already and his natural talent is obvious; he has vision, technique and speed well beyond most kids his age.

    But his actual team play is extremely tentative and raw. I honestly wonder how much we've improved him at all.

    I think if you stuck JMR in Liverpool or Arsenal's academy, he'd be a Premiership player before age 21. But I'm not sure where, as he's still growing. Given his speed and recovery time, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was tagged as a wingback.

    Anyone who has watched Jack Harrison's improvement in every aspect at Leeds -- physically, he's a specimen now, like most prem players -- would have to concede they are better at developing players there, period.
    Last edited by jloome; 12-14-2021 at 09:29 PM.

  11. #1151
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    i hope we sign some one soon.because this becoming really stupid,tfc the sweat shop

  12. #1152
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie View Post
    i hope we sign some one soon.because this becoming really stupid,tfc the sweat shop
    You'll probably have to chill until January, dude. Most contracts expire at the end of December, but even those who don't and are either already completed or someone for whom we've paid a fee, they won't announce it until absolutely necessary, because every signing affects other negotiations.

    BB does not strike me as a dope, so he's not going to tip his hand until it's harmless.

  13. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Listen, I get that this happens. The law is not clearly established (although everybody on the inside knows the score) and the kids and their parents are intimidated into going along with things.

    Very symmetrical with the situation in NCAA basketball or football, or junior hockey. Grownups making millions off kids via intimidation.

    It's bad. I don’t know how it ends, but it has to.

    TFC deserve nothing for JMR.
    The NCAA situation is VERY different. Players were (are?) paid nothing and until very recently were not able to make any money through sponsorships.

    All that said - I agree that sports teams have extorted huge amounts of value from young players without adequately compensating them. I'd say the MLB is the worst for this, where players toil away in the minors at sub-minimum wage, then make a minimum contract for 3 seasons before going through arbitration. At least in soccer youth players can only sign for 3 years prior to 18 and have a higher flexibility contracts.

  14. #1154
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    Never really saw this thread taking a hard pivot into a debate about child labor laws.

  15. #1155
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    You'll probably have to chill until January, dude. Most contracts expire at the end of December, but even those who don't and are either already completed or someone for whom we've paid a fee, they won't announce it until absolutely necessary, because every signing affects other negotiations.

    BB does not strike me as a dope, so he's not going to tip his hand until it's harmless.
    i get that...its this ruddy convo.that is the soccer world.the sports world.its not a kid working at a sweat shop,they paid him schooled him and nobody forced him to sign the contract,im sure his parents signed that contract.

  16. #1156
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    Never really saw this thread taking a hard pivot into a debate about child labor laws.
    Yeah, sort of the nature of football these days. They're pretty solid and not nebulous at all in footballing because of prior scandals. But the very fact that they've defined the terms so starkly has been seen as something of an endorsement of signing kids younger.

    FIFA's rules are pretty good. No minor player is allowed to be signed without having a parent or legal guardian in the same country, they must be provided with full and comprehensive schooling up to age 18, and they are subject to random spot checking. There are big fines for not flagging a minor signee with FIFA.

  17. #1157
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    Why are we supporting clubs not being compensated when a "wonder kid" leaves the club? Just what? I'm confused.

    If the TFC academy brings up a player from the age of 9, and they are sold at 18, the club should get compensation. Full stop. Why should the kid be entitled to most of that fee?

    It's up to the kids agent to make sure any of that fee goes to his pocket.

    Where does this TFC "deserve" nothing from the sale of JMR idea come from? Please clarify. I would understand if TFC just picked the kid up and are flipping him.

    Comparing global football with the American collegiate system is ridiculous. Not even the same universe.
    Last edited by Richard; 12-14-2021 at 10:42 PM.

  18. #1158
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    Interesting about those FIFA rules about the 5/3 year maximums. I didn't know those. Joshua Kloke is a well-connected guy and usually is on the ball with his reporting, so when he said JMR had a six year deal, I figured it was true.

  19. #1159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Why are we supporting clubs not being compensated when a "wonder kid" leaves the club? Just what? I'm confused.

    If the TFC academy brings up a player from the age of 9, and they are sold at 18, the club should get compensation. Full stop. Why should the kid be entitled to most of that fee?

    It's up to the kids agent to make sure any of that fee goes to his pocket.

    Where does this TFC "deserve" nothing from the sale of JMR idea come from? Please clarify. I would understand if TFC just picked the kid up and are flipping him.

    Comparing global football with the American collegiate system is ridiculous. Not even the same universe.
    Imagine you are a teenaged Yo Yo Ma, or a Bill Gates, or Tom Cruise. You have a ton of talent. You want to take violin or programming or acting lessons, to be the best you can be.

    But all the best violin or programming or acting teachers have banded together to create a system where, if you make it big, they get a serious cut. There is no way to get into the big time without the sponsorship of one of those instructors, so they have a different model. Not $200/hour or $500/hour. Millions. You have no choice, you either hire them, and give them millions, or you can’t get the lessons, or get into the system.

    Then layer on the fact that minors can’t sign contracts because of labour laws. Period. The whole “FIFA regulations” thing on this is a joke. FIFA is not a country. This is unenforceable in about 50 countries, including Canada. But nobody fights because the public doesn’t understand and blindly supports the system, and because doing so would mean you are thrown out of the “club” forever.

    That's it. It's not that complex.
    Last edited by ensco; 12-14-2021 at 11:30 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  20. #1160
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    Ok so 99% of the clubs in the world should develop players for the 1% mega clubs without being compensated. Gotcha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Ok so 99% of the clubs in the world should develop players for the 1% mega clubs without being compensated. Gotcha.
    Same as in any other business. The very best engineering grads at every single school in Canada wind up at Google or Facebook. That's the way it is.

    TFC can sign him too. There is a pretty good argument to be made that going straight into a superclub system at age 18 is a serious mistake. Ask Ballou Tabla.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    You don't pay to be in the clubs academy though(generally). I get it though, clubs earn a lot more from sales than they generally invest in a player, but that's football today. Not arguing that young players shouldn't get their share.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Same as in any other business. The very best engineering grads at every single school in Canada wind up at Google or Facebook. That's the way it is.
    This is an apples to oranges comparison. The global soccer transfer system is not equivalent to the education system in Canada.

  24. #1164
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Same as in any other business. The very best engineering grads at every single school in Canada wind up at Google or Facebook. That's the way it is.

    TFC can sign him too. There is a pretty good argument to be made that going straight into a superclub system at age 18 is a serious mistake. Ask Ballou Tabla.
    I agree there are major problems with youth development, contracts, etc. The problems you mention here aren't the only ones. For example: Maybe the situation has improved, but I've read a bit about the "better" youth footy development systems in the Netherlands and some other European countries. "Better" means better for developing the best possible players for club teams and national teams. "Better" doesn't necessarily mean better for the overwhelming majority of youth players who never make it anywhere professionally. Yet they have all spent HUGE amounts of time training and doing other things related to their sport, and have spent less time on learning other things, just being kids, etc. "Optimized" youth development in terms of churning out enough elite athletes for the footy industry isn't necessarily optimized in terms of the needs of an individual child.

    Of course the same issue exists in other sports, and other fields. Yet it becomes a bigger problem when you think of the size and scale of youth footy development in many countries.

    However it's not the same as in any other business. Generally public institutions don't provide elite training in soccer at a massively subsidized rate, like is the case in engineering or any other university / college degree. Even in the US, private post-secondary education also gets massive public subsidies (direct or indirect), in addition to charging the students huge amounts up front. In all those cases, education is seen as a more-or-less common good, with the understanding that graduates are not tied to the institution that trained them, nor to the country. Sports teams are private businesses that want to be compensated for time & money spent on youth development. That doesn't mean it's necessarily fair or good for the child athlete; nor do I know how to do it fairly.
    Last edited by Auzzy; 12-15-2021 at 12:47 AM.

  25. #1165
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    Can we get back on topic please? This thread has really veered off course.

  26. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    Can we get back on topic please? This thread has really veered off course.
    Aw. It was just getting to be fun.

  27. #1167
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    I feel like we need to start making progress in tweaking the current core roster.

    DP’s are great of course but without defensive reinforcements and certainty in some other areas (what happens with Laryea? Osorio?) this upcoming season isn’t going to be successful.

  28. #1168
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Aw. It was just getting to be fun.
    Well, tangential to that, Arsenal fans are losing their minds over him, even though he's on to Liverpool now.

    Story confirms he can't move until next summer due to his age.

    https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2021/12/1...london-colney/

    I spend a lot of time monitoring brit media and Canadian football, in the wake of the women's gold, Davies and David is extremely hot right now. A lot of folk in the old country are fascinated that we finally have ballers.

  29. #1169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I feel like we need to start making progress in tweaking the current core roster.

    DP’s are great of course but without defensive reinforcements and certainty in some other areas (what happens with Laryea? Osorio?) this upcoming season isn’t going to be successful.
    My suspicion is that neither is getting transferred. It's not that they're not good enough, it's that they're not "better" than good enough. Neither stands a prospect of becoming a top league player, and almost every second- or third-division level league has domestics and other players closer to home, and cheaper, that serve the same purpose. Of the two, Richie has a shot, as he really is an exceptional dribbler.

    But neither lacks the kind of issues that would prevent them being seen as a risk.

  30. #1170
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    Free agency starts in an hour (1pm EST).

 

 

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