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  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Forgot 32 year old Wayne Rooney and 32 year old Kaka.

    Insigne might not be in the top 10.
    Given Zlatan's record in Italy since leaving, Zlatan would like to remind everybody that Zlatan is Zlatan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Forgot 32 year old Wayne Rooney and 32 year old Kaka.

    Insigne might not be in the top 10.
    Name value wise, those are bigger players. Insigne is probably a better player at 30 than those guys you listed off were at 32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    Insigne would be the biggest Italian acquisition in MLS history in terms of quality. Let's get it done.
    Fixed your post

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    I hope we don’t sign Insigne for a bunch of real reasons, but one thing that would really annoy me would be the endless attempt to turn Insigne into something he just isn’t.

    He has been a very nice player at Napoli, a good team in a good league. That is very nice. It isn’t more than that, and no amount of sugar frosting turns him into some kind of World XI player.

    He'd be pretty similar to Giovinco, in terms of who he is coming in the door, not a bad thing. But Gio as an AM could create, and an Insigne would depend on link up play. That hasn’t worked that well in MLS.

    I get that Insigne would sell more tickets than a Kramaric, as an example, but I think I would rather have a Kramaric. Or someone else.
    Last edited by ensco; 12-07-2021 at 11:41 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    All I have to say is if Insigne does come and is only coming for the money he won’t be happy once he is here. IMO

  6. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    All I have to say is if Insigne does come and is only coming for the money he won’t be happy once he is here. IMO
    Maybe TFC are playing up the whole 'Toronto is great for families' thing with him. That's always a big selling point for some players.

    But I disagree he necessarily won't be happy – if we're competitive and can win things I'm sure he'd be in for that.

  7. #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    All I have to say is if Insigne does come and is only coming for the money he won’t be happy once he is here. IMO
    ^this… and which DP is leaving then. There are arguments for two, but imho it would have to be Soteldo, and that may or may not be easy.

    So if the above happens, and Insigne comes in, we desperately need a a quality finisher for him. Can Jozy play more than 10 games, we will need a back up for Jozy. Remember when Jozy gets injured, Dwyer is our new Mullinho, Ayo may or may not be ready.…. or if Jozy is leaving (don't know how) and we need a higher quality frontman as well.

    Oh wait, we need a CB as well … now what is a DP, what is a TAM etc, etc. clear as mud.
    Last edited by Bushmancan; 12-08-2021 at 09:04 AM.

  8. #908
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    We are the most spoiled fanbase in MLS if the thought of Lorenzo Insigne coming in makes people mope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    ^this… and which DP is leaving then. There are arguments for two, but imho it would have to be Soteldo, and that may or may not be easy.

    So if the above happens, and Insigne comes in, we desperately need a a quality finisher for him. Can Jozy play more than 10 games, we will need a back up for Jozy. Remember when Jozy gets injured, Dwyer is our new Mullinho, Ayo may or may not be ready.…. or if Jozy is leaving (don't know how) and we need a higher quality frontman as well.

    Oh wait, we need a CB as well … now what is a DP, what is a TAM etc, etc. clear as mud.
    The only sure thing we have this offseason is knowing that Jozy will not be back. No need to worry about whether he can manage 1/3 of the season and call it a success anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    We are the most spoiled fanbase in MLS if the thought of Lorenzo Insigne coming in makes people mope.
    100% this.

    I actually had trouble believing that there was substance to this rumour, but he's a player who has competed, and more importantly won at the highest level. You don't say no to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokecell View Post
    100% this.

    I actually had trouble believing that there was substance to this rumour, but he's a player who has competed, and more importantly won at the highest level. You don't say no to that.
    I would rather have a younger player who had a higher assurance of completely buying in, not to say he won't buy in, but players like this don't always.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I would rather have a younger player who had a higher assurance of completely buying in, not to say he won't buy in, but players like this don't always.
    There have been a lot of cases of young South Americans coming in and not buying in either lately. Guys like Barco, Brian Rodriguez, Thomas Chacon and that Pellegrini guy in Miami just coming in, thinking they'll play in MLS for a year and European teams will come snatch them up. The only players I don't think you gotta worry about their commitment to club are homegrowns.

  13. #913
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    There have been a lot of cases of young South Americans coming in and not buying in either lately. Guys like Barco, Brian Rodriguez, Thomas Chacon and that Pellegrini guy in Miami just coming in, thinking they'll play in MLS for a year and European teams will come snatch them up. The only players I don't think you gotta worry about their commitment to club are homegrowns.
    Or players consistently nailed to benches and guys who signed on in shitty places like Russia or China for money and hate the lifestyle or the way they're treated there.

    Also young family oriented players from countries that aren't being paid large like some Eastern European ones (Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, Baltics, etc).
    Last edited by Ultra & Proud; 12-08-2021 at 10:47 AM.

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    I really think the business model of gambling huge sums of money on players who don't have resale value close to what you paid is not a great long term strategy. If he worked out he'd be amazing, and sell tickets no doubt, but if he flops we're stuck with a contract nobody else will cover and limited prospect of collecting any transfer fee and there's never a guarantee with these DPs

    I also still don't buy he'd come here with a potential world cup spot in the balance, but I'm not sure I love it from our perspective at his age, either. This will be his last big money contract and that means he'll be stuck to us one way or another

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    All I have to say is if Insigne does come and is only coming for the money he won’t be happy once he is here. IMO
    that's a genuine concern, but that applies to any DP coming here esp from a bigger league. The one thing though, is this player, is absolute quality. Creative and a goal scorer, a genuine threat running at defenders, he'd be a fan favourite very quickly, plus free kicks as well. Not sure how genuine the rumours are but I'd be extremely happy if we signed him

  16. #916
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    I also still don't buy he'd come here with a potential world cup spot in the balance, but I'm not sure I love it from our perspective at his age, either. This will be his last big money contract and that means he'll be stuck to us one way or another
    If he comes it will be in July so I don't see a problem with his WC options as he could only be here for a few months anyway and that's assuming Italy qualifies, which I doubt.

    I don't really like this rumor either. At his age and with him already shopping himself elsewhere and seeing this as a last payday resort, I kind of expect him to come in like Higuain and flop.

  17. #917
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    All I have to say is if Insigne does come and is only coming for the money he won’t be happy once he is here. IMO
    With hindsight being 20/20; let's be real:

    Sebastian Giovinco came here for the money. He ended up falling in love with the city once he realized what it had to offer and it worked out. But he came here for the money. Just like he went to the Middle east for the money. and now he wants to come back here but only if the money is good.

    I'm ok with someone coming here for money. We don't need to have a Seba-like Love affair with him. We just need him to delivery what we need. A game changing attacker who can score when needed and not fuck with the team chemistry.
    Last edited by jabbronies; 12-08-2021 at 01:28 PM.

  18. #918
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    Btw I have a lot of trouble believing that TFC offered him “more money than Seba”.

    BB did not just fall off the turnip truck here.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  19. #919
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Btw I have a lot of trouble believing that TFC offered him “more money than Seba”.

    BB did not just fall off the turnip truck here.
    The offer predated him. This is Bill Manning's baby and MLSE is accustomed to paying basketball stars absurd sums even when they're second or third options off the bench. I can see him arguing inflation since 2016 and the increasing costs of transfer business as justification.

    My only issue with Insigne is that his stats indicate he's accustomed to working in productive offensive systems rather than shouldering the load himself. I get that from his goal production rollercoasting. Any year his goals are up, his assists are down and vice-versa, so he's always productive (in much the way Carles Gil and Pozuelo, two technical wingers declared too small for the Premiership, are consistent when healthy.)

    But our priority at this point is a big goal scorer. If we're going to hand a player $7-8M per season or more, he should be a lock for 15-20 goals. If Insigne made that his focus I don't doubt he could achieve it, but he hasn't been that type of player. Seba, at least, was accustomed to playing and up top as well as wide, and had that season at Parma with 15 goals to prove he could take the burden on without a solid team around him.

    Insigne doubtless has that same technical skill and is extremely dangerous, but he's also an all-rounder, and therefore less certain to bag lead-leading goal numbers, as with Pozeulo (and to an even greater extent Soteldo, whose shot choices were truly woeful).

    So maybe it makes sense if they already know Soteldo or Pozuelo are leaving. But as the final piece, if he's replacing Jozy? Possibly the wrong move.

    IF we wound up with both Soteldo and Pozuelo staying and providing service all day long, we need an Adam Buksa or Tati Castellano, a guy who just finishes lethally with both head and feet, is disconcertingly or surprisingly quick, and is strong enough to fight off defenders. As Og pointed out the other day, this is a league where goals are scored in transition moreso than by patiently breaking down a defense.

    Either way, I suspect Manning pushed this one hard before getting his new Manager because he wanted a set piece to sell tickets to second-generation Euro Torontonians. I mean, let's face it: Seba never has to pay for a cup of coffee again in TO if he doesn't want to. He gets a new Porsche every few months and who wants to bet he isn't paying full ticket lease on them, because that dealer loves people seeing him there every so often.

    Can't go wrong seat-wise by getting a top DP from Italy, Portugal.

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    I'd also add that it doesn't make a huge amount of financial sense; TAM wingers who are dangerous, wide forwards, are literally available at much lower rates and equivalent-or-close efficacy from Brazil, Argentina and Colombia who would come much cheaper, quite a bit younger and have sell-on value.

    They wouldn't put as many asses in seats, but winning tends to accomplish that, too. Vancouver's lineup shift over the last two seasons comes to mind. (Anyone else wonder if that Ayo-to-Whitecaps rumor was a potential trade involving Osorio's best bud Cavallini? He's frozen out in Vancouver, with White getting hot paired with Ryan Gauld.)

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    Look, I love the idea of Insigne, in an ideal lineup.

    But realistically, Curtis and Manning have created a mess to clean up. I think if you can put Soteldo's head on right (only hearing it is off from rumors) and have him run the wing, put Poz back in the middle, Oso as the holding mid. Thats a great start in the mid and upfront.

    Someone to replace Jozy is a better approach. We have no one that can realistically scare people in the box today. You guys know him better but Insigne is not a Striker naturally, why spend millions on two DP LW/LFs.
    Last edited by Bushmancan; 12-08-2021 at 07:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    In terms of age/wattage/talent, that would be 32 year old Thierry Henry or 32 year old David Beckham or 32 year old David Villa. Insigne wouldn’t be close to any of them.
    Age aside, those guys felt like they hit more of downslope in their career before showing up here. Sure, at their peak, any of those are better than Insigne.

    But on form immediately prior to leaving? This is pretty damn up there.

  23. #923
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    Okay, some Silly Season speculation and player ideas (Names are linked to their Transfermarkt pages)

    The idea behind these selections is that they all come from competitive environments, mostly leagues tougher than MLS, and regularly dominate games BUT are also either not high profile enough or not regarded highly enough to price us out of competing with Europe.

    A few are wishful thinking as the biggest clubs already know who all these players are. But it's worth noting that Spurs pursued Soteldo for a few years and ultimately didn't pull the trigger (size was rumoured to be a big issue) so anything's possible.


    Milton Giminez, striker, 24, Club Atletico Atlanta


    Scoring consistently at a high level but getting sporadic starting minutes on latest in a series of loans.


    Maximiliano Silvera, 24, striker, Cerrito , Primera Division, Uruguay


    Soft feet, quick, great shot from outside the box. A younger Gustavo Bou, good as a poacher but also able to run at defenders. Has 31 goals in his last 51 games for Cerrito.


    Régis, 29, Guarani, Brazil Serie B


    A consistently productive winger in Brazil for several seasons now. Sets up as many or more than he scores. Good at the Serie A level, great at the Serie B level probably equals extremely productive at the MLS level.


    Kwang-Son Han, 23, North Korean striker


    Former youth phenom who did well for a few years in Italy, with 11 goals in 36 Serie B appearances, but couldn't crack the Juventus first team.


    Took the big money in the Middle East then didn't produce but is still young and talented, and FREE. A reclamation project but a sensible one, Transfermarkt still ranks him as a nearly $2-million striker.


    Iury, 26, striker, CSA of Brazil Serie B


    Massively talented goal-scoring winger who has gone overseas twice and returned twice, as Brazilian players sometimes tend to do when culture clash is an issue. Was successful both times, in Ukraine and Japan. Scores goals for fun and would be a 10-20 guy in MLS with relative ease. Very much a gun-for-hire, though, not a loyalty signing.


    Moisés, 25, Ponte Preta of Brazil Serie B


    Dependably dangerous two-footed winger who is undervalued. Problematically under contract until 2024, so would cost some money.


    Alef Manga, 27, striker, Volta Rendonda, Brazil Serie C


    Went on loan to Goias in Serie B this year and scored 10 in 34 games. At the Brazil city level (which has many, many talented players we never hear about) he scored 10 in 14 the year before that.


    Loan to Serie B has finished without purchase, but he's available and has proven he can be a consistent scorer at a higher level. Despite being in Serie C he is rated at $1.43 million, suggesting he is being well-paid at the the lower level, as with Gilberto and Edu. Speaking of which,...


    Edu, 28, Brusque SC of Brazil Serie B


    Stocky, quick, lethal, despite being bigger for a Brazilian striker. Spent the first seven or eight years at the Serie C and city level, generally scoring around one-in-two. Hit his stride in his second tour at Brusque last year and scored 19 in 31. Scores very well with his head, scores bombers from distance, finishes clinically in close.


    Zini, 19, Premiero de Agosto, Angola first tier


    Highlight reel player who scored 11 goals in his first full professional season, leading to an invite to train at Barcelona. That landed him a big English agent... but not a contract with Barcelona. He's playing in a defensively weak league so the numbers don't say much, but his highlights look great, he's big, strong and fast, and scoring goals against men as a kid. Plus, coming from Angola, he's not going to cost a fortune.


    Tobías Zárate, 21, CD Moron of Argentina Second Tier


    Went on loan to Moron this season from a youth league team after starting his career but not sticking at Velez Sarsfield. Promptly scored 9 in 32 gamesn in Serie B, suggesting Velez bottled it on that one. Still inexpensive and unknown but highly positive signs.


    Ahmed Nadhir Benbouali, 21, Paradou AC of Algeria


    Scored 14 in his first 38 games for Paradou of Algeria's top division and has continued to score at accelerated pace this year with five goals in their first four games. Quick, great first touch to set himself. Difficult to say how he'd translate as the competition there is not strong, but it's also not awful.


    Dong-jun Lee, 24, Ulsan Hyundai, Korean First Tier


    Scored 11 in 28 from the wing in his first K-League season. Value has doubled. Speedy two footed winger who can shoot and beat defenders on the run.


    Just some speculative fun!
    Last edited by jloome; 12-08-2021 at 03:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    (Anyone else wonder if that Ayo-to-Whitecaps rumor was a potential trade involving Osorio's best bud Cavallini? He's frozen out in Vancouver, with White getting hot paired with Ryan Gauld.)
    At this point I would be more surprised if this didn't happen. Not sold on this move either (if it happens). Cavallini never really impressed and has been injured enough lately to be a concern.

  26. #926
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    Just to add another wrinkle in the mix, John Molinaro has come out and said that TFC should be careful before rushing out to buy out Jozy, both because Jozy proves people wrong and because it gives the wrong message to potential DPs. Not sure I agree with him for once despite loving his work for TFC Republic.

    http://tfc.republic.ca (paywall)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Just to add another wrinkle in the mix, John Molinaro has come out and said that TFC should be careful before rushing out to buy out Jozy, both because Jozy proves people wrong and because it gives the wrong message to potential DPs. Not sure I agree with him for once despite loving his work for TFC Republic.

    http://tfc.republic.ca (paywall)
    I know I'm in the minority here, but I figure we should keep him but not offer him a new deal, or if we do, do so very late in the year if he's producing.

    Jozy tends to beat the odds. He had four in fourteen starts, or something like that, and claimed no pain for the first time in three years after the foot surgery. He's not that mobile anymore, but he still beats defenders for position in the box and finishes big goals.

    PLUS... he's out of a contract at the end of next season. I can hardly think of anything more likely to spur him into proving naysayers wrong. And we can find TAM level strikers who'll make up any goal difference if he is injured again, if we scout and recruit well.

    Having said that... I do wonder about the interpersonal dynamic in the room. Armas -- a Bob Bradley disciple and close friend of Michael's -- and Altidore clearly couldn't stand each other and there have been little hints and noises for years about his self-confidence in stating his opinion, rather than being the tactful team player.

    "Locker room poison" isn't fair by a long shot, despite the narrative at least one person tried to peddle around here for a few seasons. But "continually disruptive" might well be.

    Same with Soteldo. Between his feuding with Venezuela's former manager, Perez sitting him a couple of times and the rumors of his discontent -- along with visible frustration with teammates even when he was clearly at fault -- I suspect his reputation as Santos' no. 10 has really ramped up the ego to delusional levels. That might well be unfair, so I state it as speculative based on what little we see.

    But it might be that the two of them are problematic, especially during COVID-induced misery for dislocated players. Jozy was sort of seen as Ayo's mentor... and now Ayo's talking about going to the Whitecaps??!? I mean, if any of this shit is true, that right there makes me wonder what advice he's being given.

    Now, having said all that, we don't really know what the locker room dynamic is like, or if anyone is actually such a stand-out pain in the ass that they made it untenable. It might just be that we had the wrong combo of players for the system COMBINED with them all being on the road and miserbale COMBINED with two DPs out.

    In other words, a new team -- and particularly a new defense -- around them both could make a world of difference. Given what he has contributed to the club, I'd prefer him to go out on top, not bought out to get rid of him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Just to add another wrinkle in the mix, John Molinaro has come out and said that TFC should be careful before rushing out to buy out Jozy, both because Jozy proves people wrong and because it gives the wrong message to potential DPs. Not sure I agree with him for once despite loving his work for TFC Republic.

    http://tfc.republic.ca (paywall)
    Yeah, John does great work but I fully disagree with him on Jozy. You can't bring back a player to take up a third of your greatest asset (DP spots) because he likes to prove people wrong. I am sure Jozy wants to prove everyone wrong, but his body isn't gonna stop breaking down as he gets into his mid-30's. And I don't see how a buyout is gonna stop future DP's. Jozy has been here for 6 years and will get his money from the team while allowing him to find a club. If anything it shows that the club is ambitious while doing right by the player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    Yeah, John does great work but I fully disagree with him on Jozy. You can't bring back a player to take up a third of your greatest asset (DP spots) because he likes to prove people wrong. I am sure Jozy wants to prove everyone wrong, but his body isn't gonna stop breaking down as he gets into his mid-30's. And I don't see how a buyout is gonna stop future DP's. Jozy has been here for 6 years and will get his money from the team while allowing him to find a club. If anything it shows that the club is ambitious while doing right by the player.
    I agree. I can't see how us paying Jozy millions to play less than 50% of available matches and even renewing him after that would sour any DP on us. If anything it makes us look good because they've showed a lot more patience than many other teams would.

    Also as a side point, Jozy is at least somewhat disruptive when times are good so can you imagine him playing out his contract and knowing he won't be renewed. Yeah maybe he might play better than he has lately, which would be a sign, but he could easily ruin the locker room.

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    I think Jozy has checked out of TFC. His head is always elsewhere. Now that could be because he is always injured and has the time to daydream to other parts of the world. When he gets injured he plays this game of "I'm a wanted commodity". I feel like that card has run out for him.

    I just wonder how much his pride and ego will get in the way of his next contract.

 

 

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