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  1. #3691
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    I can't shit on Curtis for the Soteldo signing. It was largely (universally?) praised as a steal and the narrative was that TFC had signed one of the best guys playing in South America. Unfortunately, he came into a dumpster fire. Insigne probably would've failed in that abomination of a season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    This isn’t an accurate description of Solteldo.

    He might play on the wing but he’s still a playmaker. He wants the ball. He drops back to midfield to try and pick it up. He wants to thread the final pass, more than attack the net. He wants the play on the field to revolve around him. That’s how he played at Santos and that’s how he tried to play here.

    It’s not a good fit for Poz because both players are dropping back to midfield and want the ball. The better parter for Poz is someone like Tajon Buchanan. A winger that attacks the end line and the net and plays more vertically. That way when he looks up to provide the final pass he sees someone storming up the pitch to provide an outlet to. Not the guy who is standing 5 yards from him in midfield cause he wants to do the same thing Poz is doing.
    Everything above is also quite applicable to Seba and Vasquez and I'd have them 1 and 2 as our mvps for the cup win, not exactly applicable but somewhat. Both were play makers, both wanted the ball and both dropped deep ideally playing with a true number 9. I just don't buy it as given, for me it was the right signing just didn't work out and we can't judge them when they didn't play together much and when they did it was marred by off field issues. I think people are just saying 'it didn't work out, so with the benefit of hindsight I can say the reason is x' when this entire season was a clusterfuck for 1000 reasons

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    Everything above is also quite applicable to Seba and Vasquez and I'd have them 1 and 2 as our mvps for the cup win, not exactly applicable but somewhat. Both were play makers, both wanted the ball and both dropped deep ideally playing with a true number 9. I just don't buy it as given, for me it was the right signing just didn't work out and we can't judge them when they didn't play together much and when they did it was marred by off field issues. I think people are just saying 'it didn't work out, so with the benefit of hindsight I can say the reason is x' when this entire season was a clusterfuck for 1000 reasons
    Not sure I would ever characterize Giovinco as more of a setup guy than a goal scorer. That partnership worked because VV played really deep and Seba would really only drop back to midfield if he was desperate to get the ball. But generally you wouldn’t see Gio scoop a pass off our own back line or have VV storming the other team’s CB’s.

    I know what you are saying. Sometimes the narrative is “Solteldo flopped” and I don’t agree with that POV. He’s a good player and there’s always a chance that if we had a more balanced team with a healthy target man and a proper coach, it could have looked more balanced. But I still view it as unlikely cause it’s at-odds with how Solteldo played at Santos and how he was trying to play on the field here. Easier to fit a player in when their natural tendencies are what you want, rather than have to coach it into them.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 01-17-2022 at 12:07 PM.

  4. #3694
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    applicable to Seba and Vasquez
    Vazquez. "Vasquez" is a Mexican player.


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    All the revisionist 20/20 stuff aside here's how I look at the Soteldo signing. In an ideal world he had Jozy and Ayo up front. We had Pozuelo up the middle playing behind either/both of them and we had Laryea up the right. When Soteldo was signed I was salivating at how many goals I thought we'd score after watching his YouTube videos. I figured all Jozy had to do was go stand on the penalty spot and wait for his twenty goals to show up with Soteldo, Pozuelo and Laryea beating men in the midfield and lobbing bombs into the box. Unfortunately, both he and Ayo got injured and God bless them but the rest of our strike force looked like they couldn't score in a whore house.

    At that point everything went pear shape. We had nobody that could put the ball in the net. In addition to Jozy and Ayo, Pozuelo was injured most of the time too. We were destined to be a low scoring team AND we couldn't keep the ball out of our own net to save our Granny. Anytime we looked like we were the better team, the other team scored a shit goal and we were 1-0 down. Losing set in and nothing went according to plan the rest of the way. Perhaps I'm an optimist but I don't think we were that far away from having a good year last year if we didn't incur so many injuries to major players. The team we fielded wasn't that much different than the one we fielded the previous season where we contended for the Supporters Shield. If we had a full team then the Soteldo signing wouldn't look half as bad in hindsight. People who know the game at a higher level than most of us thought we needed a winger. Prior to Soteldo's signing, I'd agree with that so I'm not a subscriber to all of the "Curtis/Manning" made a shit signing stuff. Even with as bad a defence as we had, I think we'd have won quite a few 3-2 and 4-3 games rather than losing 1-0 or 2-0. I'm glad to see they're putting some effort into both ends of the field this off season. Onwards and upwards. Looking forward to 2022 ... just saying ...
    Last edited by buddies; 01-17-2022 at 12:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    Everything above is also quite applicable to Seba and Vasquez and I'd have them 1 and 2 as our mvps for the cup win, not exactly applicable but somewhat. Both were play makers, both wanted the ball and both dropped deep ideally playing with a true number 9. I just don't buy it as given, for me it was the right signing just didn't work out and we can't judge them when they didn't play together much and when they did it was marred by off field issues. I think people are just saying 'it didn't work out, so with the benefit of hindsight I can say the reason is x' when this entire season was a clusterfuck for 1000 reasons
    Soteldo's problem is that he can't score like Giovinco, or pass like either VV or Pozuelo. He was close to Giovinco quality on the ball, but without one of the other two that's not enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Soteldo's problem is that he can't score like Giovinco, or pass like either VV or Pozuelo. He was close to Giovinco quality on the ball, but without one of the other two that's not enough.
    He got a respectable amount of assists for us despite a dumpster fire team and without a striker who could kick snow off a rope to pass the ball too. I don't think it's reasonable at all to make that claim based on last season

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    He got a respectable amount of assists for us despite a dumpster fire team and without a striker who could kick snow off a rope to pass the ball too. I don't think it's reasonable at all to make that claim based on last season
    He had some good assists off set pieces. But he had no vision for the final ball. How many assists were second assists where someone else made the difficult ball? Even with our shit team he missed runs all the time, doesn't have the vision. He's not a good passer of the ball. Compare to Pozuelo. How often do you find yourself saying, how the hell did he see that, and how'd he get the ball there? He makes insane passes. VV did it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    He had some good assists off set pieces. But he had no vision for the final ball. How many assists were second assists where someone else made the difficult ball? Even with our shit team he missed runs all the time, doesn't have the vision. He's not a good passer of the ball. Compare to Pozuelo. How often do you find yourself saying, how the hell did he see that, and how'd he get the ball there? He makes insane passes. VV did it too.
    I love VV, for me he was our best player in 2017, all I'm saying is VV would have looked pretty average in last seasons team, too, and would probably be getting written off by people on here with statements like 'you see, I knew he could never have worked out, because...'. Nobody will look good in a team that is a dumpster fire stationed in a hotel in Florida for half the season and with no strikers who can score at any decent clip on the pitch. There's a reason we're getting cash + an apparently top level CB for him despite a bad season

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    I love VV, for me he was our best player in 2017, all I'm saying is VV would have looked pretty average in last seasons team, too, and would probably be getting written off by people on here with statements like 'you see, I knew he could never have worked out, because...'. Nobody will look good in a team that is a dumpster fire stationed in a hotel in Florida for half the season and with no strikers who can score at any decent clip on the pitch. There's a reason we're getting cash + an apparently top level CB for him despite a bad season
    Yeah, and don't get me wrong, I don't think he was bad. But I do think he was missing a part of his game. Prime Giovinco in the same team would have just scored all on his own. I don't think Soteldo has the same eye for goal and that cut throat drive to score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    He had some good assists off set pieces. But he had no vision for the final ball. How many assists were second assists where someone else made the difficult ball? Even with our shit team he missed runs all the time, doesn't have the vision. He's not a good passer of the ball. Compare to Pozuelo. How often do you find yourself saying, how the hell did he see that, and how'd he get the ball there? He makes insane passes. VV did it too.
    who cares how he got assists,they all count.he would be a 8 to 10 goal 15 assist guy with a decent striker and for under 2 mil.i think even VAZ would have a hard time with a strike force of mullins and dywer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Yeah, and don't get me wrong, I don't think he was bad. But I do think he was missing a part of his game. Prime Giovinco in the same team would have just scored all on his own. I don't think Soteldo has the same eye for goal and that cut throat drive to score.
    Giovinco also always had other good players making runs and drawing away defenders. Lots of times last year it was Soteldo solo and a bunch of random forwards like Mullins just standing around. I think prime Giovinco would have had trouble if put in Solteldo's place last year too. Wasn't a good chance of success for anyone.

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    Soteldo probably wasn't the right fit for the team long term, but any assessment of him on the team last year won't be a complete picture. He and Poz never had any consistent time to get in groove together (plus it seems they didn't really like each other). The rest of the team was in shambles, so Yef ended up doing too much. I remember a few games where he played as a "striker" with Shaff and Achara on either wing he looked really good as a distributor to them. If this was Football Manager I would be interested to see how a full season simulation with Soteldo/Poz together goes just for fun. But it's not and I think the team is better with him gone at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    Soteldo probably wasn't the right fit for the team long term, but any assessment of him on the team last year won't be a complete picture. He and Poz never had any consistent time to get in groove together (plus it seems they didn't really like each other). The rest of the team was in shambles, so Yef ended up doing too much. I remember a few games where he played as a "striker" with Shaff and Achara on either wing he looked really good as a distributor to them. If this was Football Manager I would be interested to see how a full season simulation with Soteldo/Poz together goes just for fun. But it's not and I think the team is better with him gone at this point.
    yes, in fact the one game they played together with a competent striker (akinola) they looked incredibly dangerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie View Post
    who cares how he got assists,they all count.he would be a 8 to 10 goal 15 assist guy with a decent striker and for under 2 mil.i think even VAZ would have a hard time with a strike force of mullins and dywer
    I think it does make a difference. He's not a string puller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    Soteldo probably wasn't the right fit for the team long term, but any assessment of him on the team last year won't be a complete picture. He and Poz never had any consistent time to get in groove together (plus it seems they didn't really like each other). The rest of the team was in shambles, so Yef ended up doing too much. I remember a few games where he played as a "striker" with Shaff and Achara on either wing he looked really good as a distributor to them. If this was Football Manager I would be interested to see how a full season simulation with Soteldo/Poz together goes just for fun. But it's not and I think the team is better with him gone at this point.
    This is a fair comment I think.

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    I like Soteldo as a player. But from inception I didn’t understand why we got him. At the beginning I said something like “how is he going to play with Pozuelo when they both want the ball all the time “ and got shouted down on these boards, but that fundamental question was never answered. Maybe it could have been if Jozy wasn’t banished or Ayo hadn’t been hurt. Maybe. But it never was. I’m in the camp of “superbly skilled one dimensional player - potentially great for some other team, not for this one”

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    With Soteldo, people expected Seba. And when he didn't deliver like Seba, people got pissed.

    I think he was unfairly assessed here by the fans. Sure he wasn't what we needed, but he wasn't a bad player. He was actually pretty good IMO - considering what he historically excelled at vs what he managed to do on the pitch above and beyond that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddies View Post
    All the revisionist 20/20 stuff aside..... We had nobody that could put the ball in the net. In addition to Jozy and Ayo, Pozuelo was injured most of the time too. We were destined to be a low scoring team AND we couldn't keep the ball out of our own net to save our Granny..... Onwards and upwards. Looking forward to 2022 ... just saying ...
    I tend to agree, the other thing others have pointed out with our injuries, we were not feared. The one big thing that we suspect but cannot confirm, did Armas's training regime cause as many injuries in practice as in games. This team never recovered.
    If the opposing team has no respect for your offence, then they can press higher and cause more turnovers. Everything is related, including team morale being destroyed (we never restored that). I hate losing but I despise losing because we aren't committed enough, i saw too much of that last year.

    The thing that i am cautiously optimistic is that BB is going to understand what we have and will play a game that is more optimal for the team he has. I suspect we have more coming in and we need to play solid football until we are fully staffed. I hope it does not take too long but i suspect this will need to gel.

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    torontofc.ca
    Toronto FC sign Jordan Perruzza to a new deal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    He had some good assists off set pieces. But he had no vision for the final ball. How many assists were second assists where someone else made the difficult ball? Even with our shit team he missed runs all the time, doesn't have the vision. He's not a good passer of the ball. Compare to Pozuelo. How often do you find yourself saying, how the hell did he see that, and how'd he get the ball there? He makes insane passes. VV did it too.
    Agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Soltedo not even close to the quality of Seba. Giovinco had a high soccer IQ , there was a reason he played at a world class club as Juventus, Soltedo had very little “tools in the box” besides trying to dribble around two guys then losing the ball while taking on a third, think Soltedo will have a fantastic career in the Brazilian league, no team like a Juventus will ever come knocking on this guys door.

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    I feel like we are missing something. I get that Salcedo is on an expiring, but I just don’t get how he is valued below Soteldo.

    There is a bit of a Soteldo love in happening here, but he has glaring issues in his game. He doesn’t track back, and he can be muscled of the ball. Plus the passing wasn't elite (mentioned above).

    The caliber of play in Mexico is higher than in Brazil. I like Soteldo, but Tigres, man, that is a high bar. I have too much respect for Tigres to just accept the deal as reported (so far).. unless somehow the Salcedo market is broken, for reasons we don’t understand.
    Last edited by ensco; 01-17-2022 at 01:41 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I like Soteldo, but Tigres, man, that is a high bar. I have too much respect for Tigres to just accept the deal as reported (so far)..
    My guess is there may be a move to send him back to South America. TFC couldn't pay a transfer fee for Salcedo without making him a full DP. Let's say Salcedo is worth a $1M transfer and Soteldo is worth $2M. TFC and Tigres swap the two players and Tigres sends us $500k. Tigres then sells Soteldo back to Brazil for $2M. They get the $1M transfer fee for Salcedo through that, plus $500k for facilitating the deal. TFC gets their man and has him on a contract that allows us to make him TAM when Insigne arrives.

    That's my hypothetical here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    The caliber of play in Mexico is higher than in Brazil. I like Soteldo, but Tigres, man, that is a high bar. I have too much respect for Tigres to just accept the deal as reported (so far).. unless somehow the Salcedo market is broken, for reasons we don’t understand.
    Generally agree, although it’s tough to typify.

    Brazil had a period around the WC / Olympics where the economy was good and clubs were retaining their talent more often. However, I find the baseline at many Series A teams is about showcasing assets for sale and the play is very individualistic. They are top exporter of football talent worldwide and there are something like 1200 Brazilians playing outside of Brazil. Transfer fees are a big part of paying the bills.

    Mexico seems a lot more cohesive by comparison although you don’t see as many individual stars come through.

    Edit: That said, you could always point to the libertadores track record as an indicator of who has the best talent. Although I find the intensity and style of play in that tournament entirely different from what you see in each league.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 01-17-2022 at 01:57 PM.

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    I go back and forth between whether Singh has sources or these are just reasonable educated guesses. Pretty sure he's talking about Ayo here. We all know Ayo was out of contract, we've all seen Ayo re-added to the roster on MLS website and Ayo posting a picture of himself in TFC gear training.

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    While I do think it probably is an Ayo tease, the use of the word "extension" in that case would be so dubious. If his contract has expired, it is not an extension but simply a new deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydermike View Post
    I go back and forth between whether Singh has sources or these are just reasonable educated guesses. Pretty sure he's talking about Ayo here. We all know Ayo was out of contract, we've all seen Ayo re-added to the roster on MLS website and Ayo posting a picture of himself in TFC gear training.
    He has sources

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    My guess is there may be a move to send him back to South America. TFC couldn't pay a transfer fee for Salcedo without making him a full DP. Let's say Salcedo is worth a $1M transfer and Soteldo is worth $2M. TFC and Tigres swap the two players and Tigres sends us $500k. Tigres then sells Soteldo back to Brazil for $2M. They get the $1M transfer fee for Salcedo through that, plus $500k for facilitating the deal. TFC gets their man and has him on a contract that allows us to make him TAM when Insigne arrives.

    That's my hypothetical here.
    That’s what I have been assuming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I feel like we are missing something. I get that Salcedo is on an expiring, but I just don’t get how he is valued below Soteldo.

    There is a bit of a Soteldo love in happening here, but he has glaring issues in his game. He doesn’t track back, and he can be muscled of the ball. Plus the passing wasn't elite (mentioned above).

    The caliber of play in Mexico is higher than in Brazil. I like Soteldo, but Tigres, man, that is a high bar. I have too much respect for Tigres to just accept the deal as reported (so far).. unless somehow the Salcedo market is broken, for reasons we don’t understand.
    Beyond contract (which is huge, he's free to talk to any club he wants to in summer without their permission, and has likely made it clear he will not renew, so this is the last chance they have to scrape any value from him which kills their negotiation position) as you said there's age and potential appreciation differences (Younger players have a higher market value and are easier to sell) and likely the fact that teams are assessing Soteldo on more than a season with the odds absolutely stacked against him. He was very highly rated when TFC signed him a year ago, that wasn't for nothing
    Last edited by JoesphNdo; 01-17-2022 at 02:43 PM.

 

 

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