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  1. #3451
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Jozy is a club legend because of 2017


    Hope for his sake he gets a trade to somewhere he likes.

    He will be bought out.
    True about 2017 but also arguably the best and most talented striker weíve ever had. Or maybe itís the most complete striker. Very far from a poacher.
    Last edited by los sonadores; 01-13-2022 at 09:02 PM.

  2. #3452
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    I donít know how you show you will be fit when youíre on the wrong side of 30, have played less than a thousand minutes of league play in 3 of the last four years, and have on several occasions showed up to training camp out of shape.

    Look, I love what heís done for the club and legend status certainly but itís improbable he turns it around from here and would suspect the market views it the same way.

  3. #3453
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I donít know how you show you will be fit when youíre on the wrong side of 30, have played less than a thousand minutes of league play in 3 of the last four years, and by all accounts have on several occasions showed up to training camp out of shape.

    Look, I love what heís done for the club and legend status certainly but itís improbable he turns it around from here and would suspect the market views it the same way.
    Yeah, itís got to be Ďfit from time to timeí at best. If heís not the striker(s) you rely on and overall the situation suits him, he could be very useful. But the wages are not going to be high.

    On the other hand, Dwyer is an extreme and sad (for us) example but itís true the reputation can linger. I wouldnít be surprised if his current reputation in Mexico, for example, is above what it is here.
    Last edited by los sonadores; 01-14-2022 at 01:22 AM.

  4. #3454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    I think that was just a negotiating tactic to get the price down on their real target: Chris Wood.
    You are just jealous.

  5. #3455
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    I was gonna ask what the new hot button issue will be once Jozy leaves, but it will for sure be Michael Bradley's playing time.

  6. #3456
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    I was gonna ask what the new hot button issue will be once Jozy leaves, but it will for sure be Michael Bradley's playing time.
    Letís hope not. For our sake and his.

  7. #3457
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I donít know how you show you will be fit when youíre on the wrong side of 30, have played less than a thousand minutes of league play in 3 of the last four years, and have on several occasions showed up to training camp out of shape.

    Look, I love what heís done for the club and legend status certainly but itís improbable he turns it around from here and would suspect the market views it the same way.
    I love your posts but this is simply not true. Itís recency bias. 2021 was a shit show for Jozy. But that wasnít true in the past and we need to stop saying it:

    ďhave on several occasions showed up to training camp out of shapeĒ.

    Here is 2020 - https://www.wakingthered.com/platfor...mp-says-vanney

  8. #3458
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I donít know how you show you will be fit when youíre on the wrong side of 30, have played less than a thousand minutes of league play in 3 of the last four years, and have on several occasions showed up to training camp out of shape.

    Look, I love what heís done for the club and legend status certainly but itís improbable he turns it around from here and would suspect the market views it the same way.
    Also, you show you are fit in training camp by playing. Itís not complicated.

  9. #3459
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    Jozy needs to show he can play, for his sake. There are tons of examples of strikers of his class and quality succeeding at his age. He had serious surgery in his ankle last year and if he is going to play again needs to prove by play on the the field that he is past that. If he wants to.

    At the same time, TFC has more options with him if he shows that. Yes they will have to pay his 2022 contract, in Toronto or otherwise. But it doesnít need to be a buy out if they can be creative - and they might need that buy out elsewhere. (Soteldo). So it is also in their interest to show he is fit and can play.


    IT MAKES NO SENSE TO NOT HAVE HIM TRAIN IF YOU ARE NOT BUYING HIM OUT

    Sorry to yell

  10. #3460
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Jozy needs to show he can play, for his sake. There are tons of examples of strikers of his class and quality succeeding at his age. He had serious surgery in his ankle last year and if he is going to play again needs to prove by play on the the field that he is past that. If he wants to.

    At the same time, TFC has more options with him if he shows that. Yes they will have to pay his 2022 contract, in Toronto or otherwise. But it doesn’t need to be a buy out if they can be creative - and they might need that buy out elsewhere. (Soteldo). So it is also in their interest to show he is fit and can play.


    IT MAKES NO SENSE TO NOT HAVE HIM TRAIN IF YOU ARE NOT BUYING HIM OUT

    Sorry to yell
    soteldo is off to tigres

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    At the same time, TFC has more options with him if he shows that. Yes they will have to pay his 2022 contract, in Toronto or otherwise. But it doesn’t need to be a buy out if they can be creative - and they might need that buy out elsewhere. (Soteldo). So it is also in their interest to show he is fit and can play.
    If we don’t buy him out before the season, we will need someone to take his entire salary off our hands or it won’t free up a DP spot. TFC are not going to want to be put in that position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I love your posts but this is simply not true. Itís recency bias. 2021 was a shit show for Jozy. But that wasnít true in the past and we need to stop saying it:

    ďhave on several occasions showed up to training camp out of shapeĒ.

    Here is 2020 - https://www.wakingthered.com/platfor...mp-says-vanney
    Perhaps Iím imagining it but I think there have been other times where his training regime has been Im question, including last year and with the nats.

    Re: youíre other point, I respectfully disagree. Athletes these days have to show up to camp with a baseline level of fitness, otherwise the training staff canít really have them in good enough condition for the start of the season, it all takes time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Itís actually the other way around. The fact that he is likely be leaving has led some to invent stories about his past that simplify are not true. His injuries did not start because of laziness or anything else; Vanney did not call him out publicly for lack of fitness or being a problem in the locker room ever - the only coach that did was Armas and you have to agree that it is in Jozyís favour that he did; etc.

    My point is quite different. It doesnít make sense to have him not train in behalf of the club. Itís like folding and then saying hit me. If he canít play, there is no reason to delay a buyout; if you are trying to move him in some way or in a swap with Tigreís - he has to be training. Nothing to do with nostalgia. Ensco has offered one explanation and he may be right. But itís still odd.

    As for Jozy:

    Legend

    As good a goal scorer as we will ever see in MLS

    Terrible injury history.

    Showed at the end of last season that he can still put it in the net.

    If he can show he is fit, can be a difference maker for many clubs enough for them to want him.
    Iím sorry, but this madness has to stop.

  14. #3464
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Perhaps Iím imagining it but I think there have been other times where his training regime has been Im question, including last year and with the nats.

    Re: youíre other point, I respectfully disagree. Athletes these days have to show up to camp with a baseline level of fitness, otherwise the training staff canít really have them in good enough condition for the start of the season, it all takes time.
    I totally agree with your last point. Absolutely.

    Also why, if he isnít going o be bought out, he should be in camp. And if he is going to be bought out, he should be bought out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I totally agree with your last point. Absolutely.

    Also why, if he isn’t going o be bought out, he should be in camp. And if he is going to be bought out, he should be bought out.
    By the rule, pretty sure Toronto FC has until roster compliance date (aka just before season start date) to buy him out.

    Now, rather or not morally it's the right thing to do (dragging out until the last possible moment) is supposedly a whole different story altogether.

  16. #3466
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    I would love to see a chant of Bob the Builder theme if we get these contracts right, he has been amazing so far

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    Whatever the Josmer outcome...
    I believe supporters need to remember and maybe start recognizing fresher memories also... chanting mark... JA@66:15... >DD@23:13!
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-14-2022 at 02:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gracos View Post
    I would love to see a chant of Bob the Builder theme if we get these contracts right, he has been amazing so far
    Where has this 'get er done' Manning been? I like the new 'Manning Sandwich'... MU>BM<BB!
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-14-2022 at 01:29 AM.

  19. #3469
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    noxx98, Webdogg, et al.

    Thanks for getting into the weeds in the past while on some of these supporting matters and putting your brains at overload risk for us.
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-14-2022 at 01:38 AM.

  20. #3470
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    Quote Originally Posted by spe18 View Post
    By the rule, pretty sure Toronto FC has until roster compliance date (aka just before season start date) to buy him out.

    Now, rather or not morally it's the right thing to do (dragging out until the last possible moment) is supposedly a whole different story altogether.
    To me, the morality of our club (or relative lack of that) is important. And interestingly weíve been much better when we act responsibly.
    Last edited by los sonadores; 01-14-2022 at 02:52 AM.

  21. #3471
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    If Soteldo ends up being dealt which frees up a DP slot AND if TFC don't sign a further DP (say they sign a TAM striker instead) I can see various scenarios where Jozy is kept on the books for his final year.
    We're assuming that because he is unlikely to be worth his full wages that the best option is buying him out, but that's not necessarily so. He looked a lot better near the end of last season, and if we can't get a replacement until mid summer and if he can score at a level approaching his cap hit (even if not his full salary), it might be better to have his services so TFC aren't in a big hole points wise mid season than to pay him out (if for example the DP slot he sits in isn't needed immediately).
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 01-14-2022 at 03:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    If Soteldo ends up being dealt which frees up a DP slot AND if TFC don't sign a further DP (say they sign a TAM striker instead) I can see various scenarios where Jozy is kept on the books for his final year.
    We're assuming that because he is unlikely to be worth his full wages that the best option is buying him out, but that's not necessarily so. He looked a lot better near the end of last season, and if we can't get a replacement until mid summer and if he can score at a level approaching his cap hit (even if not his full salary), it might be better to have his services so TFC aren't in a big hole points wise mid season than to pay him out (if for example the DP slot he sits in isn't needed immediately).
    But if they haven't even invited him to training camp, I doubt he's going to be willing to come back and play. I think the separation is basically final already, and now we're just waiting for the official divorce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    But if they haven't even invited him to training camp....
    To be fair, the only thing we have heard on this is along the lines of "people are not here because its complicated".

    We don't know if the club didn't invite or Jozy didn't want or there is an offer waiting & there is insurance concerns.

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    Assuming Salcedo joins on $1.5M and we replace Jozy and Soteldo with a single DP for the start of the season we have about $3M left in budget/allocation money space. It may be a bit more than that in reality, if we classify Bradley as a DP for the first half of the season and then have Insigne take that spot, it should create a bit more budget room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Jozy needs to show he can play, for his sake. There are tons of examples of strikers of his class and quality succeeding at his age. He had serious surgery in his ankle last year and if he is going to play again needs to prove by play on the the field that he is past that. If he wants to.

    At the same time, TFC has more options with him if he shows that. Yes they will have to pay his 2022 contract, in Toronto or otherwise. But it doesnít need to be a buy out if they can be creative - and they might need that buy out elsewhere. (Soteldo). So it is also in their interest to show he is fit and can play.


    IT MAKES NO SENSE TO NOT HAVE HIM TRAIN IF YOU ARE NOT BUYING HIM OUT

    Sorry to yell
    Been established he isn't professional. He doesn't keep himself in shape. He is broken down. And he was never, ever an elite MLS striker. Take off the rose colored glasses and go back on his stats. He was pretty good for 2 years when he played and then below average. The stats, like facts, are right there to see if you want to.

    He is not worth even talking about again.

  26. #3476
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    I was gonna ask what the new hot button issue will be once Jozy leaves, but it will for sure be Michael Bradley's playing time.
    Bono starting consistently regardless of his "Bono-isms".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Been established he isn't professional. He doesn't keep himself in shape. He is broken down. And he was never, ever an elite MLS striker. Take off the rose colored glasses and go back on his stats. He was pretty good for 2 years when he played and then below average. The stats, like facts, are right there to see if you want to.

    He is not worth even talking about again.
    Actually, what I think is “established” is that he played with injuries in 2017 and 2018 CCL when maybe he shouldn’t have, and without that we do not win the Cup or go to CCL final. He also wasn’t “pretty good” in 2016-2018 CCL, he established a record of clutch playoff dominance that the league has never come close to seeing, before or since. Year after year top teams fail in the playoffs because their strikers get closed down (and Columbus came damn close to doing it to us in 2017). Breaking through that, over and over, like Jozy did, it was not just elite. It was unreal.

    Then he starting breaking down. Who knows why? You saying he wasn’t in shape, that really is just speculation, and kind of denies pretty obvious evidence of a “warrior” personality. My speculation is that it was just bad luck, and maybe a consequence of playing injured earlier. Also he has been plagued by injuries since before his time at TFC.

    In retrospect to re-up in 2019 was a mistake, in particular that amount of term was a serious error by Manning, but wow, your take is pretty mean spirited towards Jozy. To me, anyway.
    Last edited by ensco; 01-14-2022 at 08:41 AM.
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

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    In terms of what is going on with Jozy, I think it's pretty safe now, post the DDT (“Dwyer Debacle Trade”), to say Jozy is almost certainly being bought out, and whether TFC is handling it “correctly” is impossible to judge from the outside, we don’t know what the communications or negotiations really might be.

    Suspect there is some sort of potential opportunity for creativity somewhere before Feb 26 that depends on Jozy finding a new home, and whether he is at camp or not is a small piece of the puzzle. Honestly, he cannot afford to get hurt now, if he is looking for a spot, and it may be as simple as him not wanting to take even a small risk of pulling his hamstring or adductor doing wind sprints.
    Last edited by ensco; 01-14-2022 at 08:44 AM.
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

  29. #3479
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Suspect there is some sort of potential opportunity for creativity somewhere before Feb 26 that depends on Jozy finding a new home, and whether he is at camp or not is a small piece of the puzzle.
    I think this is the case. There's no real benefit to the team buying him out now. We lose some leverage with other potential DP targets if Jozy is off the roster, since we could say "fine we'll keep Jozy instead," even if everyone and their mother knows Jozy is gone.

    Maybe a Mexican team loses all their strikers to injury and want to bring Jozy on. We come to a mutual agreement to buy him out and maybe save 500k to let him leave early. Maybe Jozy thinks he has the chance to make the USMNT for the World Cup and is desperate for minutes, so agrees to a lower buyout to let him leave now.

    Pretty much every reporter has said Jozy will be gone (Fabrizio, Davidson, etc.). I think we need to come to terms with that.

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    I would hope they do it before the 31st. That way he's eligible to sign for a European team as free agent after the window closes should one be interested.

 

 

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