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  1. #3121
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    Quote Originally Posted by barticusz View Post
    Ensco do you know what the delegations of authority are within MLSE’s governance structure? I wouldn’t say that Manning has to sign off. Based on my experience, granted it’s a different setting, I could easily see this being within a threshold that does not require Mannings approval. But I’m also speculating.

    Absolutely horrendous contract though.
    No idea. But it doesn’t really matter. Curtis was young, a relative newbie, there is no excuse for not keeping an eye on him.

    In fact, it doesn’t matter that he was young and inexperienced. Even for BB or Bruce Arena, there has to be oversight, a structure to review material decisions. Anyone in finance knows what I am talking about, there is always an Investment Committee or Credit Committee, no matter how good the investor is.

    Anything that can cause an outcome like this is material, and needs multiple sets of eyes.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  2. #3122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    The Tajon outcome is an outlier, Superdraft isn't what it used to be, but have a look at good teams, most of them of have 2-3 key, cheap drafted players, making an important contribution on low wages. Making the draft work is critical to the model.

    This Dwyer thing, it's Knicks/Dolan level bad (this won't make sense to non-NBA types here).

    I haven't felt this down about TFC leadership since Anselmi/Cochrane. I hope the outcome of all this is that only Bob has his hands on the steering wheel now.

    I appreciate Insigne, but MLSE basically sent over a draft contract and told Insigne to fill in the number. I know who to thank for that, thank you Larry (and maybe Masai) and I am genuinely excited to see him in TFC red. But nothing in that tells me anything about anyone's ability to figure anything out.
    The year after him it was Daryl Dike. The thing is, there are always one or two "can't miss" talents in the draft. It's just amazing that American scouting is so bad that they get that far before being identified.

  3. #3123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Lol. I think Mista is still #1. His $1 million for only one goal is pretty hard to beat.
    Well at least mathematically 1 goal is Infinity% better than Dwyer's 0 shots on target season

  4. #3124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soccerpro View Post
    New England set an MLS points record on the back of a team primarily built through the draft.

    Giving up the #3 pick could really hurt in the future. Hell, remember the Kyle Bekker and Emery Welshman draft year? Andrew Farrell, everyone's consensus #1 pick that year, and the player TFC had to be brain dead not to select, has played 272 games for New England since being drafted in 2013. That's not even getting into the fact Walker Zimmerman was drafted #7.

    The draft may not be what it once was, but man oh man can players still find some gems there.

    That reminds me, Kevin Payne was an idiot.
    Yeah I agree, I think you can still find some great defenders in the draft although each year as the level of MLS pulls away exponentially from the level of college soccer there will be a set of diminishing returns creeping from the bottom up of the draft table. Eventually even the 1st overall pick will find it hard to break into a team.

    I'm not a pro scout but is it that difficult to pick a CB top 5 in the draft that you think could transition well to pro soccer, one that seems to have decent positional and tactical awareness and not just brute strength and stick him in your facilities worth millions of dollars to incubate and become a starting 11 calibre player? TFC have never once done this in their history and it's mind-boggling, they've done it with a couple keepers but it's never seen itself all the way through (traded Frei away just as he was starting to become one of the best in the league and Bono sucks now)

  5. #3125
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydermike View Post
    Soteldo news has been all over the place.

    Here are what has been confirmed to be facts about the original transfer. I've seen so much confusion on how much we own of his rights.
    1) We currently own 75% of Soteldo's rights. (Huachipato in Chile, Soteldo's former club, owns the other 25%).

    2) Santos only ever owned 50% of his rights. They bought 50% of his rights from Huachipato.

    3) Santos never paid their original $3.5 million fee to Huachipato.

    4) When we bought Soteldo, we bought 50% from Santos and 25% from Huachipato. Those were two separate negotiations. One negotiation with Huachipato. One negotiation with Santos. They did not need to be comparable and proportional values. Apparently Toronto sent $3 million to each of Santos and Huachipato for their 50% and 25% shares respectively.

    5) Santos was facing a transfer ban from FIFA for not paying Huachipato. All of the $6 million fee went to Huachipato. Santos sent their entire proceeds to Huachipato, plus will pay an additional $500,000 (in installments) - which matches with the reported $3 million Santos got in point 4, plus $500k = $3.5 original fee. The sale covered the never-paid payment and eliminated the transfer ban because they no longer owed another club money.

    6) Santos retained a 12.5% sell-on clause on a future Soteldo sale. (So Santos should get a portion of this transfer fee if we sell to Sao Paulo, which they'll probably end up sending to Huachipato again as one of their "installments")

    Here are speculations and explanations.
    - Sao Paulo wants to buy 50%. We'd remain with 25% (Huachipato still owns 25%) That's not a loan. That's not a sell-on clause. It's asset ownership. See point 4 above. A sell-on clause is what we did with Richie and Nottingham Forest. If Nottingham sells Richie, we get whatever X% we agreed to now - we are not involved in the negotiation. We get whatever X% of what Nottingham negotiates in their sale. If Sao Paulo sells Soteldo, we can negotiate our own price with the buying club for our 25% in a negotiation we are involved in.

    -If Sao Paulo *buys* 50%, Soteldo is not our player. It's not a loan. A purchase is a purchase, he would not return to being a TFC player. If it's a *loan* he'd come back, unless it's a loan with an obligation to buy (like PSG with Mbappe, which happens when a team wants to buy a player but due to FFP regulations, they might not be able to buy him this window, so they defer it to next year as a loophole)

    -Sao Paulo if offering a contract worth less than the $1.9 million we are paying him. This does not necessarily mean we have to pay the difference. When there is a transfer, a new contract is written, it's not a straight takeover of the contract. Richie was due to be paid $200,000 by us in 2022. Richie is going to make a hell of a lot more in Nottingham. His TFC contract was ripped up and replaced. Since a new contract gets written, just like a higher salary can be negotiated, theoretically a lower salary can be negotiated as well - Pique did that for Barcelona (not a transfer, but he still ripped up the old contract and took less)

    -With that said, Soteldo is entitled to his current $1.9 million in the sense that he does not have to agree to a transfer. He can stay and he is perfectly entitled to stay with Toronto and collect his $1.9 million. He can say I want $1.9 million. I don't care who pays it, but I want $1.9 million. This is what you hear about all the time where a former team pays part of a player's salary after a transfer. The new team doesn't want to pay his current salary, the player doesn't want to take a lower salary, the old team really wants out of the contract, so they agree to pay the difference between the new and old contract. It's kind of like the Julio Cesar loan here, we only paid a portion of his contract, while QPR paid the balance (although since that was a loan it was still his QPR contract)

    Here is my complete speculation and own thoughts based on the whole mess of conflicting and confusing reports (and I could be completely wrong):

    -Now if Soteldo really wants out, he might agree to a lower salary. If Sao Paulo is offering say $1 million, Toronto might be telling Soteldo, we're not paying you the 900k. We'll either pay you $1.9 million to play for Toronto or pay you Zero and you go to Sao Paulo. That's the negotiation. How much does he want out? This is what I think is happening and makes sense given the reports of the "Toronto debt" aka the bonus. Soteldo might be okay with the lower salary to get out of Toronto, if he can get his deferred signing bonus. There is no way Toronto will retain a DP/TAM level salary on the books (which would count to the salary cap and take up space), so Toronto is playing hardball since they know Soteldo wants out. They're probably trying to convince MLS to let that signing bonus count to last year's cap because it's a "signing bonus" so should be allocated to the year of signing. MLSPA says his base salary is $1.5 million and guaranteed is $1.965 million That $465,000 might be the signing bonuses (it's never been clarified what the difference between base and guaranteed on the MLSPA site).
    Thank you for the detective work. Makes the head spin but good to know. Sounds like Ali Curtis and his 300 page plan. As if extremely complicated is somehow preferable to clear and transparent. It isn’t, at least, when you have few football GM skills.
    Last edited by los sonadores; 01-10-2022 at 08:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    This Dwyer thing, it's Knicks/Dolan level bad (this won't make sense to non-NBA types here).
    I get that, but this seems worse because the cap is so much lower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Lol. I think Mista is still #1. His $1 million for only one goal is pretty hard to beat.
    And now he's gone as Atletico Ottawa's coach. An interesting CPL metric had the top three players with the ratio of Highest difference between xA - Actual assists as all ATO players. Apparently he couldn't teach how to score either.

    Quote Originally Posted by barticusz View Post
    Ensco do you know what the delegations of authority are within MLSE’s governance structure? I wouldn’t say that Manning has to sign off. Based on my experience, granted it’s a different setting, I could easily see this being within a threshold that does not require Mannings approval. But I’m also speculating.
    Also speculating, but do you think that Curtis could have buried Dwyer's second year increase and didn't tell Manning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Lol. I think Mista is still #1. His $1 million for only one goal is pretty hard to beat.
    Mista was lovely to watch very briefly when our quality level was not high. He almost completely gave up after a few matches (or less!) but it was good at first. Dwyer had zero redeeming aspects in my opinion. But then, I’ve always disliked watching him play even when he had a good strike rate (long before us).
    Last edited by los sonadores; 01-10-2022 at 08:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    The Tajon outcome is an outlier, Superdraft isn't what it used to be, but have a look at good teams, most of them of have 2-3 key, cheap drafted players, making an important contribution on low wages. Making the draft work is critical to the model.

    This Dwyer thing, it's Knicks/Dolan level bad (this won't make sense to non-NBA types here).

    I haven't felt this down about TFC leadership since Anselmi/Cochrane. I hope the outcome of all this is that only Bob has his hands on the steering wheel now.

    I appreciate Insigne, but MLSE basically sent over a draft contract and told Insigne to fill in the number. I know who to thank for that, thank you Larry (and maybe Masai) and I am genuinely excited to see him in TFC red. But nothing in that tells me anything about anyone's ability to figure anything out.
    This was one of the reasons the transfermarkt comment was so alarming. Basically what Manning was saying was "we need to fill seats so we had to get an Italian, so I scrolled though the internet to find the ones out of contract". It's worrying if thats the level of sophistication of thinking. I do trust BB though. He has pedigree.

  9. #3129
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    Soteldo is "99.9%" certain to go to Sao Paulo now according to random Brazilian journalist 4 that has 179k followers on Twitter. The Soteldo transfer rumors have more cutbacks than Yefe himself on the field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by los sonadores View Post
    Mista was lovely to watch very briefly when our quality level was not high. He almost completely gave up after a few matches (or less!) but it was good at first. Dwyer had zero redeeming aspects in my opinion. But then, I’ve always disliked watching him play even when he had a good strike rate (long before us).
    DP signings re sort of in a different category. There is inherent risk because you don’t know what the player will look like here. Soteldo is an example, he just seemed better (in YouTube highlights anyway) in Brazil.

    TFC we’re looking at Dwyer in practice for weeks before they decided to risk so much on a vet that obviously should have been on a minimum deal

    Plus I recall that the Mista story was possibly not really about talent evaluation… I will leave it at that.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    Soteldo is "99.9%" certain to go to Sao Paulo now according to random Brazilian journalist 4 that has 179k followers on Twitter. The Soteldo transfer rumors have more cutbacks than Yefe himself on the field.
    I’m really hoping we focus more on European transfers going forward… scrolling through Twitter, pressing “translate Tweet” is exhausting. The Borre and Soteldo transfers have been enough for me. A few hours ago, things were a long way out and seemed to be in doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    DP signings re sort of in a different category. There is inherent risk because you don’t know what the player will look like here. Soteldo is an example, he just seemed better (in YouTube highlights anyway) in Brazil.

    TFC we’re looking at Dwyer in practice for weeks before they decided to risk so much on a vet that obviously should have been on a minimum deal

    Plus I recall that the Mista story was possibly not really about talent evaluation… I will leave it at that.
    It really was crazy that Dwyer was signed on that contract after being on trial with us for so long. It would seem fishy but that Curtis was usually not only slow to act but then seemed to act on preconceived notions. You might think preconceived notions would be quick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    I’m really hoping we focus more on European transfers going forward… scrolling through Twitter, pressing “translate Tweet” is exhausting. The Borre and Soteldo transfers have been enough for me. A few hours ago, things were a long way out and seemed to be in doubt.
    The European media seems to be much more on top of things too. These Brazilian guys with over 100k followers change their story about this transfer every 5 minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redskiesatnight View Post
    So if we bought 75% of soteldo’s rights and sold 50% does that leave us with 25% of his rights?

    (As a West Ham fan, this crap gives me ptsd)
    Ha! Hopefully a little less team and supporter David Squared 'lubing' for The Irons now that Daniel Kretinsky is involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    Soteldo is "99.9%" certain to go to Sao Paulo now according to random Brazilian journalist 4 that has 179k followers on Twitter. The Soteldo transfer rumors have more cutbacks than Yefe himself on the field.
    It was fun while it lasted. Though I did enjoy Soltedo braying MLS defensive mules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rydermike View Post
    Soteldo news has been all over the place.

    Here are what has been confirmed to be facts about the original transfer. I've seen so much confusion on how much we own of his rights...
    Great summary. Informative. Well done. Thanks.
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-10-2022 at 09:12 PM.

  17. #3137
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydermike View Post
    The Dwyer signing at the time was still bad because there was no need for a depth striker.
    - Jozy was not yet banished
    - Ayo Akinola was healthy
    - Jordan Perruzza was not yet loaned to San Antonio
    - Patrick Mullins was healthy
    - Achara was a month and a half away from returning

    We had 4 strikers, healthy and playable, available, in a system where we played one striker. He was on trial for months. If he was truly impressing on trial, he would've been signed so much earlier. Dwyer was signed when they cut Griffen Dorsey, who could've been cut at any time. If Dwyer was so impressive, they would've done that so much earlier.
    IMO this is a great and accurate context of the Dwyer circumstances.
    My only afterthought is... wasn't there some rumours at the start of that season that Altidore was moving? Maybe my timeline is off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    IMO this is a great and accurate context of the Dwyer circumstances.
    My only afterthought is... wasn't there some rumours at the start of that season that Altidore was moving? Maybe my timeline is off.
    There were some rumours in Jan/Feb that Jozy might make a move, but when Dwyer was signed (May), Jozy was still making appearances for the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    I agree! What a disaster.

    We can separate two things: this deal with Dallas now was an acceptable way for TFC to handle a disastrous situation. As somebody else mentioned, probably the first time that there was effectively a trade for another teams once-a-year buyout opportunity. I wonder if MLS will try to limit that in the future, like you can't sign and buyout a player during the same transfer window...
    I would not be surprised if this is already tabled for discussion by MLSPA. I hope it is not really pursued and argued; to the mattresses. This is actually a not bad, break the glass, emergency pressure release valve, workaround if a MLS team is jammed up as TFC seems to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Davidson's comment does make you think the Jozy deal is done; but they cannot do that without signing Ayo at a minimum as the only strikers we have on the team right now are Altidore and Peruzza. To me it means that they haven't quite sorted a goal scorer to replace Jozy's production (2017 level) so not absolute that he will be bought out - but very likely indeed. At this moment Ayo has lots of bargaining power.
    A bit of a predicament indeed! A few Chicken or The Egg, cart before the horse situations. Likely a few or many ifs, ands or buts discussions happening. Maybe keeping options open until any absolute or perceived internal deadline? Certainly telling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    I would not be surprised if this is already tabled for discussion by MLSPA. I hope it is not really pursued and argued; to the mattresses. This is actually a not bad, break the glass, emergency pressure release valve, workaround if a MLS team is jammed up as TFC seems to be.
    If anything the MLSPA should want more buyouts without cap implications. If a player is bought out for their full contract they can sign with another team for more money. If a team can open up cap space after a buyout that means they can sign another player in their place. All of this benefits the PA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    If anything the MLSPA should want more buyouts without cap implications. If a player is bought out for their full contract they can sign with another team for more money. If a team can open up cap space after a buyout that means they can sign another player in their place. All of this benefits the PA.
    Agree. The buyout is a circumvention of the cap: the more there are, the higher overall dollars for players will be.

    (Not that I think Dwyer has a hope in hell of catching on in MLS. But Jozy sure does.)
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    This is like the exact thing that I observed here. I saw lots of other similarities too. When they played Newcastle, the midfield was entirely ineffective at stopping the counter and there were massive gaps between the lines.

    This whole philosophy, whether it’s Armas or Rangnick, it’s just all nonsense. You don’t dogmatically drop into a team and suddenly take a formation or style of play out of the box and expect to be successful. You have to look at what you have to work with, what the environment is, and what the opportunities are. Then figure out a direction for the team that suits it’s strengths or otherwise gives you the best chance to be successful. That doesn’t mean you abandon what you know entirely but it’s more complicated than some cookie-cutter setup.

    I still remember Curtis and Armas and all their Red Bull references. What a couple of clueless dolts. You wouldn’t show up in the kitchen in a Michelin Star restaurant and make hay about how you ran the grill at McDonalds.
    Agreed. Thats what i observed as well with Armas coaching TFC. We used to be compact in MF and we would managed to control the MF, but with Armas’s approach that all went out the window and there was tons of space for opponents to exploit. The end result is that our CB’s (especially Omar Gonzalez) would get hung out to dry, moreso given that they were never quickest players to begin with. He was getting caught in a lot of one on one situations. It bugged me the number of times he would get singled out by ppl as the culprit for goals against. I am not denying he lost a step and a chnage was needed but he was never quick to begin with but he still managed to be effective under Vanney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    the trend of this year's offseason mainly being used to undo the work of ali curtis continues
    Yes! It does seem 'someone' at TFC/MLSE has decided...
    for lack of a better known reference...paraphrased... 'this off season we are settling all Family business'...
    Starting to feel more like some sort of an accelerated rebuild effort then an adjustment and tweaking of key positions.
    Hopefully, Manning is sandwiched just right and tight between Ujiri and BBradley.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    If anything the MLSPA should want more buyouts without cap implications. If a player is bought out for their full contract they can sign with another team for more money. If a team can open up cap space after a buyout that means they can sign another player in their place. All of this benefits the PA.
    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Agree. The buyout is a circumvention of the cap: the more there are, the higher overall dollars for players will be.

    (Not that I think Dwyer has a hope in hell of catching on in MLS. But Jozy sure does.)
    noxx98 and ensco... I get what you are both saying and do not disagree in the case of certain types of players.
    Except, is not one purpose, some may argue the main purpose, of the MLSPA, a Union, to offer the most protection possible to those already on the 'inside' from being 'shed', especially if their careers are stuttering, wavering or waning from finding themselves easily on the 'outside' looking and wanting to get back 'inside'; back on an MLS pitch?
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-10-2022 at 11:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by los sonadores View Post
    Mista was lovely to watch very briefly when our quality level was not high. He almost completely gave up after a few matches (or less!) but it was good at first. Dwyer had zero redeeming aspects in my opinion. But then, I’ve always disliked watching him play even when he had a good strike rate (long before us).
    My only memory of Mista is of him angrily kicking the water bottle stand when he got subbed off.

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    South American media reporting multiple other teams "taking a look" at Salcedo, including Flamengo, Porto and Trabzonspor.

    Sounds like Tigres put a price on him and are actively shopping him, moreso than teams coming for the player.

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    We shouldn't imagine that Manning was spending all his time taking in Raptors games and fine dining with MLSE executives while Curtis screwed everything up.

    For some odd reason MLSE saw fit to make him the rescuer of the Argos, and that blazing tire fire of a situation has to have been pulling an inordinate amount of his attention. If someone he trusted (wrongly it turned out) was in charge of TFC, it's quite natural that he would leave it in his hands so he could put his full attention on how to save the Argos.

    So the root problem is the disfunctional MLSE structure. Who splits someone's job between two sports? It's crazy.

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    FC Dallas fans are laughing their asses off over this

    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    noxx98 and ensco... I get what you are both saying and do not disagree in the case of certain types of players.
    Except, is not one purpose, some may argue the main purpose, of the MLSPA, a Union, to offer the most protection possible to those already on the 'inside' from being 'shed', especially if their careers are stuttering, wavering or waning from finding themselves easily on the 'outside' looking and wanting to get back 'inside'; back on an MLS pitch?
    I see your point but, if I ran the union, my ultimate objective would be maximum dollars for all players. So I would like buyouts.

    But there would be winners and losers…
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

 

 

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