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  1. #5281
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I wasn't a sports journalist, I just wrote a soccer column on the side. I was a hard news reporter, including many years as an investigative journalist.

    A source's accuracy in the past isn't the only issue when assessing the likelihood of a rumor to be true.

    For this to be true, we have to assume that
    A) manning is somehow subservient to the will of Giovinco's former agent, or his influence
    B) That the former agent will exercise that influence regardless of the potential negative income potential (from his cut of any deal that isn't made as a result)
    C) That manning is comfortable overriding or making a decision without Bob Bradley's input on whether he wants the player
    D) That Manning is comfortable telling either Seba or front office staff this info, to have them leak it
    E) That Bob Bradley is comfortable working with an acquisition agent who blackmails them over who they can sign (i.e. you won't get 'a' if you sign 'b', with Seba being b)

    It's just not very likely. More likely is that they drew up terms of a deal for Seba but it went no further because Bradley thought he would be not worth the outlay/disruption.

    When two parties see themselves as enemies, it's far more likely one side is being blamed for a deal falling apart based on hearsay.

    Again, I'm not saying it's not true. I'm just saying the logic doesn't jibe with the perceived reality.
    Only the paranoid survive!

    I don't believe (E), I just think BB would happily be a party to things that allow him to escape having players put to him by suits (which is the core conspiracy theory, and entirely a fabrication of fertile imaginations only at this point, as you rightly surmise).

    But I buy it. Probably says more about me than it, I know. The whole 2021-22 Gio flirtation was pretty weird, and has some sort of explanation that isn't visible yet..
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

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    Further to the D'Amico/Giovinco discussion.
    Seems now to be a no love lost thing.
    The timing though gives me pause.
    Isn't D'Amico Criscito's agent? Some degree of sway or leverage? TFC's Italian pipeline.
    For me, something more went on; time will hopefully tell.
    Perhaps, just innocent and simple good business by Manning, D'Amico and BBradley with Giovinco getting the short-end...
    Along the lines of 'Guys you don't need Seba. Save, sell and bank the allocation. I suggest this other better option Italian player solution.'
    Or Occam's Razor and BBradley no longer rates Giovinco.
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 02-10-2022 at 08:28 PM.

  3. #5283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    Further to the D'Amico/Giovinco discussion.
    Seems now to be a no love lost thing.
    The timing though gives me pause.
    Isn't D'Amico Criscito's agent? Some degree of sway or leverage? TFC's Italian pipeline.
    For me, something more went on; time will hopefully tell.
    Perhaps, just innocent and simple good business by Manning, D'Amico and BBradley with Giovinco getting the short-end...
    Along the lines of 'Guys you don't need Seba. Save, sell and bank the allocation. I suggest this other better option Italian player solution.'
    Or Occam's Razor and BBradley no longer rates Giovinco.
    I suspect Gogan's version, with Manning letting D'Amico think he's got more sway than he does, is the most likely. He knew they hate each other, he'd prefer to be in good with the agent right now, and Bradley didn't see enough at camp to make it worthwhile. Works all the way around, and whether Manning outright suggested it or not, I can see D'Amico assuming it was on his rec anyway.

    Either way, matters little. He's going to Sampdoria.

  4. #5284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Didn't realize you did investigative work. Apologies!

    I get using logic to test a story, but logic to work does often depend on having more facts than we actually have. We don't ever see the whole story.





    PTSD PTSD PTSD (any of us who've been around since that period).


    Fortunately there's few FO relationships quite as sleazy as that one was and I don't see that here.

    That being said I do agree that if a relationship is too close it won't work out to the club's favour.
    Some of the shenanigans and schemes those two pulled had my jaw drop when a former Red explained it to me one night at a local pub. I will also never forget how defensive when Tommy Boy was asked about Barry's relationship with the team at one of those old infamous town halls. But in all serious agents always have their own agendas and objectives, so you just have to be aware as you mine your way through it like it appears Manning is.

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Either way, matters little. He's going to Sampdoria.
    This is true. In one sense it's done and dusted. But for me, Seba has been the sideshow in all this. For me the more interesting question is what exactly is going on with Manning and D'Amico. Because D'Amico is solidly in a conflict of interest position, has screwed Manning in the past, and yet Manning works with him as if they are partners and fast friends.

    I've never mentioned it on here, and I've not commented on the Manning evaluation thread, but (and this may be clear now) I think Manning is entirely to blame for the hole this club is digging out of, and I'm not confident he's the one to lead the charge in putting this team back on the map.

    jloome, if you'll indulge me, I'm going to make some comments on an earlier post where you laid out 5 conditions that had to be true in order for the "conspiracy theory" to hold. It's not to revisit Seba's situation at all, but to further raise questions about how this roster is getting recruited. I'll do it in a different post so folks can give it a miss if they're tired of this.

  6. #5286
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    For this to be true, we have to assume that
    A) manning is somehow subservient to the will of Giovinco's former agent, or his influence
    B) That the former agent will exercise that influence regardless of the potential negative income potential (from his cut of any deal that isn't made as a result)
    C) That manning is comfortable overriding or making a decision without Bob Bradley's input on whether he wants the player
    D) That Manning is comfortable telling either Seba or front office staff this info, to have them leak it
    E) That Bob Bradley is comfortable working with an acquisition agent who blackmails them over who they can sign (i.e. you won't get 'a' if you sign 'b', with Seba being b)
    Trigger warning; I'm about to bang on a bit about the shadiness of the Manning - D'Amico relationship, in case you want to give this a miss.

    This is a great framework. If you donít mind, Iím going to use it to both agree with you and disagree with you. But where I disagree, these are just my opinions born out of how Iíve seen things work in my business transactions. Steve Jobs used to say that breakthroughs and innovations only come from juxtaposing ideas, and these ideas are the product of different and legitimate frames of reference. So, I think your framework is great and your assertion is true. For there to be more than meets the eye here, all 5 conditions you identify must be true. Where we differ is, I think it quite plausible all 5 are true. So for what itís worth, hereís my read on the 5 conditions:

    A) manning is somehow subservient to the will of Giovinco's former agent, or his influence


    I think this is entirely possible (although ďsubservientĒ maybe overstates it). I donít believe Manning is at all well connected in European football circles. Not only does he not appear to have a rolodex, I donít think he has the savvy nor experience to understand how these deals get done. The last time he oversaw a meaningful European transfer was Pozuelo, and this board howled with derision over his ham-handed handling of it, even going so far as to assert he had seriously damaged TFCís reputation as a partner with whom to do business. And the consensus on here seems to be that the Soteldo acquisition came up just a tad short of being well thought through. When it comes to roster building and the big-league transfer market, the guy is way out of his depth on both. He doesnít just need help, he needs to and seemingly does defer to an ďexpertĒ. I still donít understand how he remained beholden to DíAmico after the latter humiliated him with the 2019 Giovinco transfer. Whatís the basis of trust after that blindsiding? So yes, in my view there is something askew with DíAmicoís influence over Manning.


    B) That the former agent will exercise that influence regardless of the potential negative income potential (from his cut of any deal that isn't made as a result)


    This particular former agent is playing the long game. If Manning has no other close relationships in Italy (or anywhere in Europe for that matter), then DíAmico has all kinds of leverage. And so absolutely, DíAmico would risk a commission on one deal in order to assert the preeminence of his role. Because that comes with many more deals over time. So, for DíAmico to get all stroppy over Giovinco can easily be a rationale economic move by DíAmico. And the last thing DíAmico needed was his enemy becoming front and centre of TFCís marketing campaigns because once that happens, Giovincoís influence goes up. So, for me, itís not just easily explained, but itís most likely the case that DíAmico got involved (again, likely to the relief of Bradley who had no real use for Giovinco).

    C) That manning is comfortable overriding or making a decision without Bob Bradley's input on whether he wants the player



    Certainly Manning would never do that in order to assert his will. But, there are bigger people than Manning. There is no way it was Bob Bradleyís idea to invite Seba on trial. So, stuff happens that isnít Bradleyís idea. The pursuit of Insigne wasnít Bradleyís idea. In other words, Bob Bradley doesnít unilaterally construct the roster. And he made it clear in his first presser he has no involvement in transfer and contract negotiations. So if Bradley says, I want player A, and Manning comes back and says, I looked into, I canít get player A, so youíre not getting player A. Thatís it. So Manning isnít overriding Bradley, but at the same time, he isnít just out there doing his bidding. Manning is going to work on stuff he can get done, and some of the stuff he is most able to get done is the stuff DíAmico brings to the table.

    D) That Manning is comfortable telling either Seba or front office staff this info, to have them leak it



    Manning wouldnít need to tell anyone anything. When there is an influential force like DíAmico lurking around, everyone knows it. Itís as clear as day. The tension in the DíAmico/Giovinco relationship didnít exactly come as news to anyone in the TFC front office. Rather, itís a reality they had to start navigating the moment some higher-up at MLSE decided Seba should get a trial. Iím sure they were all just waiting for the other shoe to drop. (I expect TheGoodson can confirm or refute this)

    E) That Bob Bradley is comfortable working with an acquisition agent who blackmails them over who they can sign (i.e. you won't get 'a' if you sign 'b', with Seba being b)



    I donít get any sense Bob Bradley would at all be comfortable working with an unscrupulous agent. However, I do get the sense Manning is quite ok with it. But Bradley is once removed from DíAmico. Bradley doesnít need to work with him at all.


    Manning on the other hand - I guess he has no leverage over DíAmico. Recall, DíAmico was working on Sebaís new contract with TFC prior to the 2019 season. Except, in secret he was also working on a deal with Al Hilal. And then he blind-sided Manning by telling him on the eve of the season that Seba was going to Riyadh. Turns out he wasnít negotiating in good faith at all. TFC was either lazy or misled, because it was immediately clear Manning had no contingency plan in the event he couldnít sign Seba. If I were Manning, my trust in DíAmico (if I ever had any) would have been vaporized there and then. So yup, Manning seems quite willing to work with an agent who has no compunction over screwing him. Which I guess comes back again to who needs whom more (which in my mind has been solidly established).

    It's just not very likely. More likely is that they drew up terms of a deal for Seba but it went no further because Bradley thought he would be not worth the outlay/disruption.


    I too am quite sure Bradley was of the opinion that Seba didnít fit and wasnít the best use of cap space. However, I highly doubt this is why the deal didnít happen. I think Bradleyís dim view of Seba allowed the deal not to happen, but wasnít the driver in this. Someone (likely Tannenbaum) wanted to give this a go. Iím sure it took a combination of transfer-market-access reasons and footballing reasons for him to say, yeah ok, drop it.


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    https://twitter.com/Total_TFC

    ➡️🇧🇷 Santos FC manager Fabio Carille has confirmed the arrival of Auro. He completed his medical today, and was at the stadium to watch the Santos match. His loan move from Toronto FC may be officially announced tomorrow.

    #TFCLive

    [via @UOLEsporte]

    https://www.uol.com.br/esporte/futeb...iel-guedes.htm

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    A team having a tight relationship with a specific agent isnít necessarily a bad thing. Wolves and Jorge Mendes comes to mind as an example where itís worked out quite well for Wolves. A significant portion of their team are Mendes clients. An article from a few years back for those interested. https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/supe...wolves/?sn-amp

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    An article from a few years back for those interested
    That's such an interesting article. Thank you. You can see how a mid-table Premier League team is really up against it when it comes to recruiting. That's rarified air they're competing in, and the capital outlays are not just significant, but usually get bid up. So clearly the non-arms-length relationship with Mendes has served them well, but as the article points out, it's a deal with the devil and can go pear-shaped. Would I turn a blind eye if it were Mendes we were talking about here? Surely the weighing up pros and cons would be different and it would be a fun ride !

  10. #5290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil744 View Post
    https://twitter.com/Total_TFC

    ➡️ Santos FC manager Fabio Carille has confirmed the arrival of Auro. He completed his medical today, and was at the stadium to watch the Santos match. His loan move from Toronto FC may be officially announced tomorrow.
    At some point I would love to know how this all went down, the tidbits we didn't hear. I find it odd Auro would want to leave TFC, especially with what looks like a bright few years coming up for us. Obviously Santos had interest but I just wonder if Auro wanted to go, or TFC wasn't happy with his performance and pushed him out when Santos came calling.

  11. #5291
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    If its a loan, do we get cap relief from Auro or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    A team having a tight relationship with a specific agent isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Wolves and Jorge Mendes comes to mind as an example where it’s worked out quite well for Wolves. A significant portion of their team are Mendes clients. An article from a few years back for those interested. https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/supe...wolves/?sn-amp
    If D’Amico was somehow providing a way to circumvent the salary cap, to TFC's benefit, then we too would probably see D'Amico the way Wolves fans see Mendes!

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates...r-files-fosun/
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    If its a loan, do we get cap relief from Auro or not?
    Important question. And noxx98's spreadsheet assumes we do get cap relief. And that would make sense, right?

    But wait, this is directly from the MLS Roster Rules web page:

    A club may loan any player from its Senior Roster or Supplemental Roster to a non-MLS club, subject to League discretion. During the loan period, the club will receive roster relief but not Salary Budget relief unless otherwise determined in the loan agreement.

    Ok, is that not the most ambiguous thing you've ever seen? What does that mean? I guess it's another one of those things that remains opaque. Maybe, maybe not. Only the league office knows for sure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gogon View Post
    Trigger warning; I'm about to bang on a bit about the shadiness of the Manning - D'Amico relationship, in case you want to give this a miss...
    Brilliant! Enjoyed.

    Playing a bit in my 'nutters' backyard now.

    More than just dipping your toe in that Jacuzzi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    If D’Amico was somehow providing a way to circumvent the salary cap, to TFC's benefit, then we too would probably see D'Amico the way Wolves fans see Mendes!

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates...r-files-fosun/
    Enlightening. Relevant. Shining a light at a dark corner of football.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gogon View Post
    Important question. And noxx98's spreadsheet assumes we do get cap relief. And that would make sense, right?

    But wait, this is directly from the MLS Roster Rules web page:

    A club may loan any player from its Senior Roster or Supplemental Roster to a non-MLS club, subject to League discretion. During the loan period, the club will receive roster relief but not Salary Budget relief unless otherwise determined in the loan agreement.

    Ok, is that not the most ambiguous thing you've ever seen? What does that mean? I guess it's another one of those things that remains opaque. Maybe, maybe not. Only the league office knows for sure?
    I think that means as long as Santos is picking up his salary, we wonít have any hit against our salary budget.

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    Any OG's... my son flagged the following from reddit for me...

    Is / was this accurate? Wow!


    Toronto FC's Planning An Announcement Shortly For The Right Back Position

    'At every home game raffle tickets will be sold at the gate and one lucky fan will be able to play right back! What a way to integrate yourself back in the community and get people in the door! Good luck everyone!'

    'You kid op but TFC actually did this for their inaugural season. Invited fans to come down, pay $200 I believe and try out.'

    'I think it was $125. Looking back that was such a predatory thing for the team to do.'

    https://www.reddit.com/r/tfc/comment...t_shortly_for/

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    I think that means as long as Santos is picking up his salary, we won’t have any hit against our salary budget.
    I imagine you're right. That would make sense.
    But do you know what else would make sense? It would make sense for the official MLS Roster Rules to state it as clearly and logically as you just did.

  19. #5299
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    Quote Originally Posted by noxx98 View Post
    A team having a tight relationship with a specific agent isnít necessarily a bad thing. Wolves and Jorge Mendes comes to mind as an example where itís worked out quite well for Wolves. A significant portion of their team are Mendes clients. An article from a few years back for those interested. https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/supe...wolves/?sn-amp
    It's a double edged sword. Having the Italian connection made it possible to sign Insigne, but it can backfire if we start doing favors and taking on bad contracts.

    However, with a Bradley in charge I don't see TFC being taken advantage, experience is king.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    Playing a bit in my 'nutters' backyard now.
    Oh I dunno. I've always found when things don't make sense, they actually make a lot of sense. You just have to think about it until you figure out where everyone is getting their bread buttered and then everything falls into place. Not saying I've got anything figured out here, just saying, when things don't make sense, it's not lunacy to start speculating on possible explanations, because these peculiarities are certainly not random events. They all make sense somehow.

    And in that vein, I therefore enjoy and appreciate your wonderings and wanderings (for example, like you, I see Ujiri's thumbprint all over this offseason)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    If D’Amico was somehow providing a way to circumvent the salary cap, to TFC's benefit, then we too would probably see D'Amico the way Wolves fans see Mendes!

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates...r-files-fosun/
    Such an interesting article ensco. A must read for any footie fan. Thanks for linking it.
    I think this rather puts to bed the notion that D'Amico is friendly fellow who is happy to make some phone calls for us and collect a finders fee should anything work out. That's just not how the system works anymore. It's horse-trading right to the core and any influential and connected agent will be adept at that game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    It's a double edged sword. Having the Italian connection made it possible to sign Insigne, but it can backfire if we start doing favors and taking on bad contracts.
    Exactly right! And is it "if" or "when"? I'm keeping my eyes peeled for this. For example, as much as Criscito has been a fine player, there sure seems to be more in it for D'Amico than there is for us if we consummate that deal. Quid pro quo?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post


    Is / was this accurate? Wow!

    It's absolutely accurate. They held predatory "try outs" that attracted overseas players too. Not a single one was ever chosen. Mo was such a slimy character (or maybe it was Anselmi's decision, who knows?).
    But this is the 2022 thread, not the 2007 thread. So try your hardest to stay on topic, please.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gogon View Post
    Oh I dunno. I've always found when things don't make sense, they actually make a lot of sense. You just have to think about it until you figure out where everyone is getting their bread buttered and then everything falls into place. Not saying I've got anything figured out here, just saying, when things don't make sense, it's not lunacy to start speculating on possible explanations, because these peculiarities are certainly not random events. They all make sense somehow.

    And in that vein, I therefore enjoy and appreciate your wonderings and wanderings (for example, like you, I see Ujiri's thumbprint all over this offseason)
    Once again well reasoned and explained. I am not not in agreement with you.

    Thanks for the MU mention; that craziness... maybe not so much... was all inspired by ensco.

    Short story long, what I am also suggesting is that while we, some others of us may find occasional enjoyment and satisfaction in these sorts of musings- lines of not extreme far fetched thought, but tethered to reality... yes the earth is not flat... others not so much and may at times take issue, albeit legitimate but unnecessary IMO, with the 'over' speculation; a subjective moving line seemingly continuously redrawn in this sandbox.

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    Iím confused why everyone is so worried about the díamico and Manning relationship and díamicoís control over him somehow. In all business it is all about relationships.

    -manning wanted an Italian, he reached out to a well connected Italian agent he knewÖ we get insigne.
    -Bradley and manning wanted a strong centre backÖ manning knew salcedo from RSL and connected with him, Bradley knew his quality from previous matches.
    -we needed a good striker to replace altidoreÖ. Bradleyís coaching connections identified Jimenez

    So far Díamico had led to one signing and, potentially, was a blocker to 35 year old who has two less than stellar seasons. (I would still love to see him put the TFC jersey on one more time, though)

    We currently have more cap space and no surprise our FO is reaching out to their rolodex again searching for players.

    Mountain out of a molehill being created??

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    Jozy has posted his goodbye to Toronto on Instagram. Doesn't seem like there is much bad blood.

    Last edited by MikeForbes; 02-11-2022 at 07:05 AM.

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    Jozy getting out ahead of the announcement is one reason why I love Jozy...

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    I look forward to reading the Twitter replies when TFC announces this. "No Jozy and Seba?! I'll never attend another game!"

  29. #5309
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    I look forward to reading the Twitter replies when TFC announces this. "No Jozy and Seba?! I'll never attend another game!"
    C'mon, two mornings in a row...; really?

    Please give us others some space as we mourn.

    All in all very astute, you just know it's going to happen; only if there was a way to monetize it?

    Let the twits begin...
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 02-11-2022 at 08:48 AM.

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    @ESPNFC


    Man United’s players are frustrated with Ralf Rangnick’s squad selection methods, with some believing his training sessions are “old fashioned”.Players have also jokingly likened assistant Chris Armas to fictional football coach Ted Lasso, sources have told ESPN.


 

 

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