View Poll Results: Curtis at TFC - on December 31, 2021

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  • In the same position as on August 31 - Odds: +160

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  • Not in the same position - Odds: -180

    24 80.00%
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  1. #91
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    Was googling up worst PPG stats, and according to the wiki we are on pace for our worst season ever at 0.625 PPG.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nto_FC_seasons

    We're comfortably on pace to now hold two spots on the top 10 worst PPG of all time.

    https://www.gamblingsites.com/blog/r...s-mls-history/

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Was googling up worst PPG stats, and according to the wiki we are on pace for our worst season ever at 0.625 PPG.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nto_FC_seasons

    We're comfortably on pace to now hold two spots on the top 10 worst PPG of all time.

    https://www.gamblingsites.com/blog/r...s-mls-history/
    Can you imagine looking at those stats and still thinking of hiring Olsen? Curtis did.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Was googling up worst PPG stats, and according to the wiki we are on pace for our worst season ever at 0.625 PPG.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nto_FC_seasons

    We're comfortably on pace to now hold two spots on the top 10 worst PPG of all time.

    https://www.gamblingsites.com/blog/r...s-mls-history/

    And imagine if we didn't have the highest payroll in all of MLS? Would we be pointless?

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamp Berg View Post
    I rate Omar’s contract as worse than Gallardo because of Omar’s cap it. Also, Gallardo was also never expected to be the lynch pin of anything.
    Really? Because apparently he was going to improve our team and make an impact NOW
    https://www.torontofc.ca/news/toront...ckson-gallardo

    “Erickson is a talented attacking player that will improve our team. He has good character and is excited to earn the respect of his teammates, meet our great fans, and he and his wife are looking forward to settling into the City of Toronto. He has speed, can shift directions quickly and can open up the game for himself and others. Mid-season can sometimes be challenging to step into a new team, particularly for young, international players. With that said, we’re excited to get him going because we believe he can make an impact now, and in the future,” said Toronto FC General Manager Ali Curtis.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    And imagine if we didn't have the highest payroll in all of MLS? Would we be pointless?
    There was a point in 2012 when we were pointless, and I believe that was with the league's 3rd highest payroll at the time?

  6. #96
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    Payroll in this league is a measure of your spend on DPs and your willingness to spend Garber bucks. Its a particularly obtuse tool for judging team strength.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by wopchop View Post
    Really? Because apparently he was going to improve our team and make an impact NOW
    https://www.torontofc.ca/news/toront...ckson-gallardo
    Gallardo was an unproven young player, Gonzalez was touted as the replacement for Moor. Not exactly the same thing.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamp Berg View Post
    Gallardo was an unproven young player, Gonzalez was touted as the replacement for Moor. Not exactly the same thing.
    I don't disagree that he was young and unproven.
    But our glorious GM touted him as an immediate impact player.
    Clearly not the case. He has had zero impact.
    You cannot say that about Omar, who has had an impact. Sure his 2021 season ain't stellar, but his last seasons were not disasters. Certainly better than Gallardo who didn't have any season.
    Last edited by wopchop; 09-15-2021 at 08:48 PM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by wopchop View Post
    I don't disagree that he was young and unproven.
    But our glorious GM touted him as an immediate impact player.
    Clearly not the case. He has had zero impact.
    You cannot say that about Omar, who has had an impact. Sure his 2021 season ain't stellar, but his last seasons were not disasters. Certainly better than Gallardo who didn't have any season.
    Their impacts on the team are vastly different, not only by cap hit, but on-field as well. Gonzalez eats up way more cap space, and a decent CB is desperately needed, not a liability to be managed. Gallardo, on the other hand, was not needed, then or now.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by wopchop View Post
    I don't disagree that he was young and unproven.
    But our glorious GM touted him as an immediate impact player.
    Clearly not the case. He has had zero impact.
    You cannot say that about Omar, who has had an impact. Sure his 2021 season ain't stellar, but his last seasons were not disasters. Certainly better than Gallardo who didn't have any season.
    Was never convinced by Omar. He was laughed out of Mexico, showed up and did a mediocre job for us considering the stupid number he was on. Lazy signing from start to finish.

    A lot of people on this forum seem to tout 2019 as a major success, but getting to that final was flukey as all hell and we were shakey for much of that year. 2020 is looking to be a little bit of luck and Vanney masterclass more than anything else in retrospect.

  11. #101
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    The seeds for this year go back to this moment

    https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-...oronto-parade/

    Bez followed up with contracts based on that year's performances & the high of that achievement - those hamstrung us.

    The 6 month victory tour planned afterwards (constantly parading out the cup etc.) helped foster the hubris our team's players have still not recognised (Manning recognises that is an issue & the wholesale changes coming will reflect that)


    A lot of this goes back to Bez & Manning in that offseason.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The seeds for this year go back to this moment

    https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-...oronto-parade/

    Bez followed up with contracts based on that year's performances & the high of that achievement - those hamstrung us.

    The 6 month victory tour planned afterwards (constantly parading out the cup etc.) helped foster the hubris our team's players have still not recognised (Manning recognises that is an issue & the wholesale changes coming will reflect that)


    A lot of this goes back to Bez & Manning in that offseason.
    Err, I think that’s over stating it a bit. We did come out after and have a good run in the CCL.

    It starts with aging players and then followed with injuries through the end of 2018. The picture was hazy at that point but a sharper mind than Curtis’s would have seen the writing on the wall: time for a changing of the guard. We got lucky when Giovinco left but it wasn’t perceived that way. Curtis’s lack of sophistication and being blind sided by a public transfer request snowballed into his first major bad move: resigning Altidore.

    Since then we’ve been slow and always a step behind the game. When we do address things the execution is poor. The CB signing in the form of Gonzalez was six months late. Solteldo, the winger we always wanted, was so late bigger burning issues existed by the time he arrived. Gonzalez isn’t a “leader” CB like we needed. Solteldo doesn’t score enough to be a secondary goal scoring threat like we required.

    Ali Curtis’s (or Manning’s) inability to identify or anticipate and timely address the team’s most pressing needs is the root of our misfortune.

    Edit: sure Bez screwed up some contracts in the form of Aketxe and VDW and plenty of other things. But I would say the important thing with Bez wasn’t that he got every move right, it’s that he knew to admit his mistakes and continue to work to address problems we all saw. Kantari and Perquis didn’t stop us from continuing our search for Drew Moor. In comparison, Ali Curtis lives in his cone of silence and thinks if he never mentions his screw-ups, nobody will notice.

    We’re too proud to sign another CB, so we sign Kamal Lawrence. We cannot admit Altidore was a bad deal so we sign Solteldo. We put the blinders on and pretend things work, when it’s clear they don’t.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 09-16-2021 at 07:13 AM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The seeds for this year go back to this moment

    https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-...oronto-parade/

    Bez followed up with contracts based on that year's performances & the high of that achievement - those hamstrung us.

    The 6 month victory tour planned afterwards (constantly parading out the cup etc.) helped foster the hubris our team's players have still not recognised (Manning recognises that is an issue & the wholesale changes coming will reflect that)


    A lot of this goes back to Bez & Manning in that offseason.
    Seba made that point at the beginning of the next season, remember?

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Err, I think that’s over stating it a bit. We did come out after and have a good run in the CCL.

    It starts with aging players and then followed with injuries through the end of 2018. The picture was hazy at that point but a sharper mind than Curtis’s would have seen the writing on the wall: time for a changing of the guard. We got lucky when Giovinco left but it wasn’t perceived that way. Curtis’s lack of sophistication and being blind sided by a public transfer request snowballed into his first major bad move: resigning Altidore.

    Since then we’ve been slow and always a step behind the game. When we do address things the execution is poor. The CB signing in the form of Gonzalez was six months late. Solteldo, the winger we always wanted, was so late bigger burning issues existed by the time he arrived. Gonzalez isn’t a “leader” CB like we needed. Solteldo doesn’t score enough to be a secondary goal scoring threat like we required.

    Ali Curtis’s (or Manning’s) inability to identify or anticipate and timely address the team’s most pressing needs is the root of our misfortune.

    Edit: sure Bez screwed up some contracts in the form of Aketxe and VDW and plenty of other things. But I would say the important thing with Bez wasn’t that he got every move right, it’s that he knew to admit his mistakes and continue to work to address problems we all saw. Kantari and Perquis didn’t stop us from continuing our search for Drew Moor. In comparison, Ali Curtis lives in his cone of silence and thinks if he never mentions his screw-ups, nobody will notice.

    We’re too proud to sign another CB, so we sign Kamal Lawrence. We cannot admit Altidore was a bad deal so we sign Solteldo. We put the blinders on and pretend things work, when it’s clear they don’t.
    I fully agree with this analysis, with the exception of the bold part. The team completely mishandled Seba and VV. it needed to have dealt with them earlier as they had clearly been requesting and as is done everywhere else, and if they couldn't come to an agreement have moved them properly, not let them choose their own timing and method of departure. Personally, I would have moved heaven and earth to keep them both for two more years - including overpaying, but that might not have been possible. Jozy needed to be resigned but the contract needed to protect TFC more ie shorter length or options heavily weighted to appearances, etc

  15. #105
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    The funny thing about this thread is that we all agree that Curtis should leave.

    The thing we are bickering over is what are the reasons why he should leave :P

    Seems like the two camps are:

    "Everything he did was bad, so he must go"

    or

    "Not everything he did was bad, but the majority of it was, so he must go"

  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I fully agree with this analysis, with the exception of the bold part. The team completely mishandled Seba and VV. it needed to have dealt with them earlier as they had clearly been requesting and as is done everywhere else, and if they couldn't come to an agreement have moved them properly, not let them choose their own timing and method of departure. Personally, I would have moved heaven and earth to keep them both for two more years - including overpaying, but that might not have been possible. Jozy needed to be resigned but the contract needed to protect TFC more ie shorter length or options heavily weighted to appearances, etc
    No arguments about Seba and VV’s contracts in the sense the mechanics were poor. I would argue though the result was the correct one. Those players were not worth the money they were going to get overseas. Altidore though I continue to disagree.

    The price of being sentimental with that signing is where we find ourselves today. To draw a comparison: Serge Ibaka. Massai was able to see that even though the team needed someone at that position and the fans loved Ibaka and he was a big part of their championship run, he wasn’t the right guy because he was on the old side and had injury concerns. He has to hear the fan base groan but was proven right. We took the opposite, weak-kneed approach and paid the price.

    This is an example of the honorariums at this club we have to end if we’re to move forward. We can’t get all teary about “but look what he did, we want him here forever”. We need to be more pragmatic, that’s just the business.

  17. #107
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    This should be his severance gift:



    https://www.amazon.com/Juvale-Wooden.../dp/B077GS1JZH
    Last edited by Ultra & Proud; 09-16-2021 at 11:21 AM.

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    A ‘walk of shame’ seems more suitable.

  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    No arguments about Seba and VV’s contracts in the sense the mechanics were poor. I would argue though the result was the correct one. Those players were not worth the money they were going to get overseas. Altidore though I continue to disagree.

    The price of being sentimental with that signing is where we find ourselves today. To draw a comparison: Serge Ibaka. Massai was able to see that even though the team needed someone at that position and the fans loved Ibaka and he was a big part of their championship run, he wasn’t the right guy because he was on the old side and had injury concerns. He has to hear the fan base groan but was proven right. We took the opposite, weak-kneed approach and paid the price.

    This is an example of the honorariums at this club we have to end if we’re to move forward. We can’t get all teary about “but look what he did, we want him here forever”. We need to be more pragmatic, that’s just the business.
    You could not lose Seba, VV and Jozy at the same time. Possibly could have moved Jozy if you kept the first two, but once they failed to professionally deal with Seba and VV there was no choice. And i will continue to disagree with you - we should have kept Jozy, just a different kind of contract. But we have been around the block on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    You could not lose Seba, VV and Jozy at the same time. Possibly could have moved Jozy if you kept the first two, but once they failed to professionally deal with Seba and VV there was no choice. And i will continue to disagree with you - we should have kept Jozy, just a different kind of contract. But we have been around the block on this.
    Agreed, we’ll go around in circles forever. Curse you and your contrary opinions! Lol.

  21. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Agreed, we’ll go around in circles forever. Curse you and your contrary opinions! Lol.

    hahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    You could not lose Seba, VV and Jozy at the same time. Possibly could have moved Jozy if you kept the first two, but once they failed to professionally deal with Seba and VV there was no choice. And i will continue to disagree with you - we should have kept Jozy, just a different kind of contract. But we have been around the block on this.
    Never should have kept Altidore. He had constant injury problems and never took care of himself in the offseason coming into camp always way out of shape. HIs on and off the field s.hitty attitude was always an issue as well. And we end up signing him for a massive DPO contract that's killed us. Over $5M per year and he has scored 4 goals the last two seasons combined. And we play without a striker. We could have got some quality South American or Euro striker at fraction of the cost and had way more output. Imagine if we had a legit goal scorer to go with Poz and Soteldo?
    Am tired of seeing Achara, Mullins and Dwyer run around like chickens with their heads cut off and zero end product. And also tired of seeing Altiroe go on Euro vacations to Paris and London watching tennis and seeing the sights on our dime while we lose game after game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    Never should have kept Altidore. He had constant injury problems and never took care of himself in the offseason coming into camp always way out of shape. HIs on and off the field s.hitty attitude was always an issue as well. And we end up signing him for a massive DPO contract that's killed us. Over $5M per year and he has scored 4 goals the last two seasons combined. And we play without a striker. We could have got some quality South American or Euro striker at fraction of the cost and had way more output. Imagine if we had a legit goal scorer to go with Poz and Soteldo?
    Am tired of seeing Achara, Mullins and Dwyer run around like chickens with their heads cut off and zero end product. And also tired of seeing Altiroe go on Euro vacations to Paris and London watching tennis and seeing the sights on our dime while we lose game after game.
    Hahaha! Wait, this was meant to be funny, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    You could not lose Seba, VV and Jozy at the same time.
    Hindsight being 20/20, this would have been the best thing to happen to TFC. All three either went to shit or continued their declines after leaving. This was the time to change the make up of the squad to reflect the changes happening in MLS that we're still seeing today. Meanwhile we're still stuck in 2017 and most of the league has left us behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamp Berg View Post
    Hahaha! Wait, this was meant to be funny, right?
    No, nothing funny about it. The decision to resign Altidore has literally killed the team. And we are stuck with two options. Continue to have no DP striker and paying him $5M per year (5th highest salary in all of the MLS) to not play and continue to lose games...or bite the bullet for the disaster to resign him and pay a huge buy out to then get a an actual goal scorer and rebuild.

    The choice is a matter of winning or continue to lose. Simple as that.

  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Hindsight being 20/20, this would have been the best thing to happen to TFC. All three either went to shit or continued their declines after leaving. This was the time to change the make up of the squad to reflect the changes happening in MLS that we're still seeing today. Meanwhile we're still stuck in 2017 and most of the league has left us behind.
    VV's had a pretty good year at LA so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Hindsight being 20/20, this would have been the best thing to happen to TFC. All three either went to shit or continued their declines after leaving. This was the time to change the make up of the squad to reflect the changes happening in MLS that we're still seeing today. Meanwhile we're still stuck in 2017 and most of the league has left us behind.
    Fully agreed.

    How anyone in the club though with all of Altidore's injury problems, his lack of motivation to come into preseason ever in shape would magically change is an absolute negligence in doing their jobs and a fireable offense. Altidore doesnt give two shi.ts and is laughing all the way to the bank. Everyone walks around on egg shells with him and we are screwed because of it. Buy him out now and lets get on with it and try to rebuild. We can't afford another season of Altidore not playing but having to fork over a massive salary to get no goals again. We are so predictable and easy to defend. Doubtle team Soteldo and mark Poz as we have no other options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    VV's had a pretty good year at LA so far.
    But he's basically a sub. Not a lot of minutes but he's been good. Not TAM level or anything like we would have had to pay him to stay in Toronto though and he would be a luxury signing that wouldn't help our lack of team speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    No, nothing funny about it. The decision to resign Altidore has literally killed the team. And we are stuck with two options. Continue to have no DP striker and paying him $5M per year (5th highest salary in all of the MLS) to not play and continue to lose games...or bite the bullet for the disaster to resign him and pay a huge buy out to then get a an actual goal scorer and rebuild.

    The choice is a matter of winning or continue to lose. Simple as that.
    The Altidore extension was definitely one of the worst pieces of business in recent history, so I agree with you there, but there was so much hyperbole in the rest of your statement, I thought it must be a joke. Who cares what MLSE spends? MLSE is a minuscule part of Rogers and Bell, almost insignificant. It has no impact, other than to make the board members feel big and important. Read Soccernomics, it will change your view on the football world. Well, it will change your viewpoint if you like facts.
    Last edited by Kamp Berg; 09-17-2021 at 09:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamp Berg View Post
    The Altidore extension was definitely one of the worst pieces of business in recent history, so I agree with you there, but there was so much hyperbole in the rest of your statement, I thought it must be a joke. Who cares what MLSE spends? MLSE is a minuscule part of Rogers and Bell, almost insignificant. It has no impact, other than to make the board members feel big and important. Read Soccernomics, it will change your view on the football world. Well, it will change your viewpoint if you like facts.
    Ill give it a read, thanks for the recommendation.

 

 

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