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    One good read about the old school is in Kloke's book - reading up on how managers like MoJo didn't really do training beyond "throw the ball out there after basic stretching". This continued right up to Vanney.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    When i was growing up, English and Scottish football approaches were rampant everywhere I looked.
    "Kick and run", hockey equivalent would be "dump and chase", was what everyone seemed to be pushing.

    The Italian clubs I encountered were doing the opposite, which is where I learned the more methodical approach.

    The Spanish clubs I encountered were playing more Central American style football which I hated. It was basically run with the ball as far as you can go, quickly recover if the ball is lost and continue the pattern. Very selfish approach and lacked any sort of real tactical insight.



    Spot on! MLS doesn't have a lot of players that have both skill and athleticism. It's one or the other. The high press was two guys (armas and Curtis) thinking too big.

    Everyone is hating on Manning for letting it happen, but I don't. He trusted Curtis the to do something that he felt would work. That is what any good leader would do. He quickly ended it once he saw it wasn't going the right way.

    In the presser Manning kept referring to "My Teams" when referring to projects he's be a part of in the past? "This TFC team wasn't progressing how MY TEAMS that have won championships did in the past"

    A shitty leader would've let it go on and given it time to mature. Manning isn't an idiot like others believe. He knows what it takes to win.


    Let's slow down a bit.

    Trusted curtis- he didnt even interview many others for the position he passed off to a friend/colleague he had previous playing experience with. How is this a sign of a good leader- you generally want to hire the best or at the very minimum interview extensively .

    Any good leader- wouldnt allow DP Jozy to be banished, wouldnt allow curtis to treat supporters like nobodies(the lack of communication is a big red flag-like he knows better/is better than to communicate with the supporters)

    Quickly ended- TFC has 5 points, and has conceded more goals than all of last season combined- I would say he is about three to four games too late - team morale could be significantly impacted.

    shitty leader would let it go on-
    manning didnt do anything until TFC had the worst loss in history, the 5th worse loss in league history, team allowing 7 goals when the opposition scored a total of 11 goals prior to this game, and lastly had to wait for innebriatti to light a fire under Manning to do something.
    Unfortunately manning should be on the hot seat, it all started with the way he handle Seba's contract and Jozy- trying to strong arm north american sports business into soccer, big red flag- ego popping out here.

    The fact, he hired a friend with very little credentials or merit, the fact that many of the red bulls supporters and TFC saw how this would be an issue prior to even one game.


    Don't forget about, the signings that made TFC look like fools and ended up paying much more for Poz.



    Really he should be hiring someone to run operations for him who will hire a GM and a competent coach who can maximize the best out of the roster, instead of trying to bend players will to their vision/strategy.

    The last misstep is how do you provide continuity to build on successful season , close to winning supporters shield, fresh of a finals appearance.


    The proof of concept has
    been in front of his face for many seasons and he decides to try to be cute.

    he needs to go.


    and the fact he had to highlight his "winning resume" speaks volumes that he is insecure about his future and had to sell hard that he knows what he is doing, when in fact, ever since Tim L left its all been going down hill.

    At least the raptors have it correct, although they had a terrible season, every move made especially now in hindsight was the right one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FootBallAZ View Post
    Don't forget about, the signings that made TFC look like fools and ended up paying much more for Poz.
    I don't think this matters much at all since it's the Belgium way. If we're going to be outraged over a couple million more then the President of Lille should be fired for David's signing (same thing happened) and is happening now with Yaremchuk. It's the Belgium way to screw around, say they have no cover and waste time all to get a few more bucks. Argentina has their quirks, Brazil has theirs, and this is the Belgium transfer quirk that prospective buyers need to be prepared for.

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    The proof of concept has
    been in front of his face for many seasons and he decides to try to be cute.he needs to go.


    On the whole, you're right.

    He really fucked the dog by trusting an old colleague. He probably though Curtis was brilliant from conversational depth and outward self-confidence in his own ideas.

    But someone can display considerable depth of intellect in one area of thinking but be quite terrible at others, due to the compartmentalized nature of various neurological functions.

    In other words, you can have a photographic memory that makes you seem like a genius, but be curtailed by immaturity that prevents depth of consideration, or by poor comprehension skills due to slow development of the ability to compare and contrast.

    Equally, you can have brilliant comprehension skills that make you able to understand or analyze situations well, but have poor recall or inattention that leads to missing details necessary for the ideal analysis.

    It's why track record and seeing steady improvement in someone's history are so important to determining how they'll likely behave. No one who honestly analyzed Armas' performance in New York thought it was going to go smoothly here. But because of allowing personal biases into the mix, Manning's ability to see reality was strongly curtailed.

    Having said that, I've made the same mistake -- albeit with less money at stake -- and survived it. Hell, I did it two or three times for differing reasons of sympathy. I once hired a former bank robber who'd been a great political reporter before his alcohol-fueled, shotgun-aided run on Calgary banks. There were issues that prevented it from working, as one might expect, but he was a good guy. Stupid hire, though. I should've seen some pretty obvious signs that other employers weren't just "not giving me a chance", as the guy lamented, but sussing out personality problems.

    So I suspect Manning survives this IF he nails the landing. But that's the tough part; he's always walked into sweetheart setups, in Tampa, in RSL, where the team had a coach and lineup that was competitive. Same here.

    Now he has to make it really work. And if he doesn't, it's unlikely he'll get the same "step back and reboot" chance he got with the NFL twenty years ago. Once you're over fifty, boy do those phones stop ringing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    So I suspect Manning survives this IF he nails the landing. But that's the tough part; he's always walked into sweetheart setups, in Tampa, in RSL, where the team had a coach and lineup that was competitive. Same here.

    Now he has to make it really work. And if he doesn't, it's unlikely he'll get the same "step back and reboot" chance he got with the NFL twenty years ago. Once you're over fifty, boy do those phones stop ringing.
    I agree. This interim hire and full time hire will dictate whether he survives. I think in the meantime Curtis is demoted to yes man and guy writing up contracts. If this hire goes poorly then both are toast. I think if even the interim goes badly or mediocre it might mean the end of Curtis as it's directly due to his insistance on Armas that left us with minimal mid season options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I agree. This interim hire and full time hire will dictate whether he survives. I think in the meantime Curtis is demoted to yes man and guy writing up contracts. If this hire goes poorly then both are toast. I think if even the interim goes badly or mediocre it might mean the end of Curtis as it's directly due to his insistance on Armas that left us with minimal mid season options.
    Yeah, and from Manning's body language, I'm betting he asked "Are you certain?" more than a few times, based on how the end of Armas' NY tenure went.

    It might just be that both seriously underestimated the growth in the league's tactical requirements and that players aren't of the same uniquely workman-like pedigree of MLS 1.0 players, who were largely taught they could play anywhere and adjust to anything, because their opposition were also journeymen and pluggers.

    Olsen, Mo, Yallop.... they all espoused this philosophy that roles and tactics weren't that important, that it was still up to the individual player's skillset. But that's ancient history; teams in the Premiership that play that way get demolished. Ask Jozy about his time at Sunderland, the most selfish of teams I've seen at that level, where players largely did whatever they wished on the pitch.

    Someone quoted a book yesterday about TFC's early days, maybe the DeRo book, not sure. But the quote was something about MO just treating training session as kickabouts. The Don Revie--Higuain approach of "a good player can play with a cigarette hanging from his lip". A lot of players go into management still believing their egocentric take that they mostly did it all themselves.
    Last edited by jloome; 07-07-2021 at 11:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    ..

    Someone quoted a book yesterday about TFC's early days, maybe the DeRo book, not sure. But the quote was something about MO just treating training session as kickabouts. The Don Revie--Higuain approach of "a good player can play with a cigarette hanging from his lip". A lot of players go into management still believing their egocentric take that they mostly did it all themselves.

    That was me

    Kloke's book - not perfect & I still think John Molinaro will have the definitive take when he does one - but describes the lack of training habits in the midst of discussing the chaos of those earlier years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I don't think this matters much at all since it's the Belgium way. If we're going to be outraged over a couple million more then the President of Lille should be fired for David's signing (same thing happened) and is happening now with Yaremchuk. It's the Belgium way to screw around, say they have no cover and waste time all to get a few more bucks. Argentina has their quirks, Brazil has theirs, and this is the Belgium transfer quirk that prospective buyers need to be prepared for.
    They did screwed up with that. They did that here, with all our salary and roster restrictions, not in Belgium. Maybe the Belgians don't think the transaction made TFC look like fools, but MLS and MLSE folks might. And they certainly stressed out & pissed off plenty of TFC fans. This was an issue that started under Bill Manning and Bez; can't fault Curtis as much on this, although his glacial pace of decision making and player signings probably didn't help.

    As ensco wrote in one of the threads: they thought they had the upper hand with Seba and Jozy. They thought they could force them to start the last year of their contracts w/o an extension in place. Note I don't think they should have overpaid for Seba or Jozy; just negotiated earlier. After Seba helped set personal and team records, they wouldn't even honour the option year on his contract. I doubt Seba would have accepted it, but for the team not to even offer the option year, given his performance, was an unwarranted slap to the face.

    They could have negotiated with Seba earlier; let him go to Saudi Arabia at the start of their transfer window. Then they could have signed Poz on a free w/o any extra costs, delays or transfer soap, at the time when he was negotiating with a Middle Eastern club in early 2019. Poz would have had a rest after a lengthy season; trained with TFC from the start; and been available for CCL which would have helped with the shit show we saw there in 2019.

    Seba called their bluff and ditched them. The Poz signing was late and tortured. And to placate the higher-paying SSH that were pissed about losing Seba, they signed Jozy to a bad panic deal (and had no alternative to Jozy lined up to sign instead). They were in a bad bargaining position as a result, Jozy's agent knew that and got what he wanted from TFC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    They did screwed up with that. They did that here, with all our salary and roster restrictions, not in Belgium. Maybe the Belgians don't think the transaction made TFC look like fools, but MLS and MLSE folks might. And they certainly stressed out & pissed off plenty of TFC fans. This was an issue that started under Bill Manning and Bez; can't fault Curtis as much on this, although his glacial pace of decision making and player signings probably didn't help.

    As ensco wrote in one of the threads: they thought they had the upper hand with Seba and Jozy. They thought they could force them to start the last year of their contracts w/o an extension in place. Note I don't think they should have overpaid for Seba or Jozy; just negotiated earlier. After Seba helped set personal and team records, they wouldn't even honour the option year on his contract. I doubt Seba would have accepted it, but for the team not to even offer the option year, given his performance, was an unwarranted slap to the face.

    They could have negotiated with Seba earlier; let him go to Saudi Arabia at the start of their transfer window. Then they could have signed Poz on a free w/o any extra costs, delays or transfer soap, at the time when he was negotiating with a Middle Eastern club in early 2019. Poz would have had a rest after a lengthy season; trained with TFC from the start; and been available for CCL which would have helped with the shit show we saw there in 2019.

    Seba called their bluff and ditched them. The Poz signing was late and tortured. And to placate the higher-paying SSH that were pissed about losing Seba, they signed Jozy to a bad panic deal (and had no alternative to Jozy lined up to sign instead). They were in a bad bargaining position as a result, Jozy's agent knew that and got what he wanted from TFC.
    What was shocking in all of this is that when Seba to Saudi started to unfold they elected to panic sign Jozy (injured and in decline) instead of up their offer and fight to keep the best player in MLS history.

    I found it laughable watching Jozy argue for an extension at the same time as Seba to be honest. Like Robin arguing to be treated like Batman.

    (FTR: I thought they should have sold Jozy that year, and held firm on a slight and not major Seba pay decrease.)

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    So I just found this

    He already has a Ph.D in Exercise Physiology, a UEFA PRO license from Royal Spanish Football Federation – one of three coaches in Spain to have both honors, and studied at some of the top clubs across Europe.
    Should we be coming up with Doctor nicknames for him?

    It's from this article https://www.topdrawersoccer.com/club...perez_aid24036 couple of familiar names on his first US U18 roster.

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    Pump the brakes a little bit on last night
    Perez made a basic error in the subs.

    He only did 3 & did them all as singles. If we had a non-concussion injury after Seteldo was subbed off, we would have been skrewed.

    And, the subs were a tad late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Pump the brakes a little bit on last night
    Perez made a basic error in the subs.

    He only did 3 & did them all as singles. If we had a non-concussion injury after Seteldo was subbed off, we would have been skrewed.

    And, the subs were a tad late.
    It might just be a matter of that’s who he trusts. Others were probably short odds to get on the field no matter the circumstances. I don’t disagree with it given how badly the team needed a win. Hand was also forced slightly with guys cramping.

    We’ll see in subsequent games. But, to me, the use of Endoh and DeLeon, and some of the other moves suggest this guy will be a suitable interim hire. Sort of a hard-ass, read straight from the playbook type, with no curveballs. Nobody looked overjoyed to be playing for him, he won’t be a Chris Cummings “players coach” . He’s probably good for 5 games or so to prevent the ship from taking on any more water.

    Doubt he’ll be the permanent hire. That said, perhaps I’ll be proven wrong. Not much you can do with a team on 2 days notice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Pump the brakes a little bit on last night
    Perez made a basic error in the subs.

    He only did 3 & did them all as singles. If we had a non-concussion injury after Seteldo was subbed off, we would have been skrewed.

    And, the subs were a tad late.
    With the way the game was going, I think it was intentional. Feel like he wanted a veteran lineup out there. The rest of the unused bench was all young guys - Okello, Nelson, Marshall Rutty, and Shaff. He wanted the veterans to close out the game

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    https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-fc-set-to...ason-1.1665414

    Bradley has positive words about Perez. He would, of course. But still nice to know there's some history there from work with nats.

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    So Bradley, Omar and Jozy know him from USMNT
    Bono and Delgado from US 18's
    Ayo might be familiar with him from U20's too

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    So the interim will remain in place for the rest of the season. Do Manning and Curtis do anything that isn’t an exercise in buying more time?

    When Curtis finally gets around to dealing with the Altidore situation, Jozy’s contract will have been expired for 6 months

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    So the interim will remain in place for the rest of the season. Do Manning and Curtis do anything that isn’t an exercise in buying more time?

    When Curtis finally gets around to dealing with the Altidore situation, Jozy’s contract will have been expired for 6 months
    The whole point of the interim is to see out the season. They said as much in their presser and that makes sense. I wouldn't want them to just name some random guy in a week.

    As for Jozy, he will probably be on the bench on the 17th so that's sorted for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    The whole point of the interim is to see out the season. They said as much in their presser and that makes sense. I wouldn't want them to just name some random guy in a week.

    As for Jozy, he will probably be on the bench on the 17th so that's sorted for now.
    I agree there is no need to rush hire someone but I am wary given the process we just concluded. Mid 2020 it should have been clear to Curtis and Manning that Vanney wasn’t coming back (you don’t sit on an offer like that unless you have no intention of signing it). They basically waited and then took the entire offseason to perform a search and rushed Armas in the door shortly before training camp.

    Now, we’ve got an interim manager “for the rest of the year”. Just wait for the rushed process in this offseason, followed by the desire to have new players that meet the new managers style that can’t be found for at least another window, followed by some other thing they can’t quite figure out for an extended period of time.

    They’ll have to extend Curtis and Manning’s contracts again just to deal with the backlog.

    Edit: let’s not forget a lot of the market for coaches will drive off of the euro offseason and not necessarily North America. So they theoretically have options now, they might not have in six months. Maybe not better ones, but at least different.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 07-08-2021 at 12:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I agree there is no need to rush hire someone but I am wary given the process we just concluded. Mid 2020 it should have been clear to Curtis and Manning that Vanney wasn’t coming back (you don’t sit on an offer like that unless you have no intention of signing it). They basically waited and then took the entire offseason to perform a search and rushed Armas in the door shortly before training camp.

    Now, we’ve got an interim manager “for the rest of the year”. Just wait for the rushed process in this offseason, followed by the desire to have new players that meet the new managers style that can’t be found for at least another window, followed by some other thing they can’t quite figure out for an extended period of time.

    They’ll have to extend Curtis and Manning’s contracts again just to deal with the backlog.

    Edit: let’s not forget a lot of the market for coaches will drive off of the euro offseason and not necessarily North America. So they theoretically have options now, they might not have in six months. Maybe not better ones, but at least different.
    I would think they're hoping Perez succeeds and we squeak into the playoffs or come real close to it. Then it will be considered a positive recovery and like "a miracle" after the Armas bust then they'll name Perez as the premanent manager to add some feelgood-ness to it all.

    I would still prefer Alonso but I gave Armas a shot even though I didn't want to so Perez deserves the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    https://www.tsn.ca/toronto-fc-set-to...ason-1.1665414

    Bradley has positive words about Perez. He would, of course. But still nice to know there's some history there from work with nats.
    Perez basically claiming he is manager just because nobody has said otherwise and daring Manning not to name him.

    In a different world, Perez would get fired for doing this. Pour encourager les autres, as Napoleon said about his practice of purging a general every month.

    Most amusing, and speaks to the weak position Manning and Curtis are in.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Perez basically claiming he is manager just because nobody has said otherwise and daring Manning not to name him.

    In a different world, Perez would get fired for doing this. Pour encourager les autres, as Napoleon said about his practice of purging a general every month.

    Most amusing, and speaks to the weak position Manning and Curtis are in.
    I think that's a stretch. That's pretty much what I say about projects and various things I do at work myself. I am doing it unless I hear otherwise. If it's anything like my case, it's because he probably rarely sees or hears from the bosses so he has no idea what's up. In that case you just go business as usual until told different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I would think they're hoping Perez succeeds and we squeak into the playoffs or come real close to it. Then it will be considered a positive recovery and like "a miracle" after the Armas bust then they'll name Perez as the premanent manager to add some feelgood-ness to it all.

    I would still prefer Alonso but I gave Armas a shot even though I didn't want to so Perez deserves the same.
    That might be their game plan. A strong external hire could easily step in an challenge Bill and Ali’s authority. They’d want to avoid that, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Perez basically claiming he is manager just because nobody has said otherwise and daring Manning not to name him.

    In a different world, Perez would get fired for doing this. Pour encourager les autres, as Napoleon said about his practice of purging a general every month.

    Most amusing, and speaks to the weak position Manning and Curtis are in.
    Slight edit: "speaks to the weak position Manning and Curtis have put themselves in."
    Last edited by MightyDM; 07-08-2021 at 02:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    That might be their game plan. A strong external hire could easily step in an challenge Bill and Ali’s authority. They’d want to avoid that, I think.
    Or else they'll double down on the transition to the press and get a more reputable manager to come and do it properly, like with actual tactics and things of that nature.

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    I just saw a tweet from Sportsnet that said TFC is naming an interim coach in "the next few days."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I think that's a stretch. That's pretty much what I say about projects and various things I do at work myself. I am doing it unless I hear otherwise. If it's anything like my case, it's because he probably rarely sees or hears from the bosses so he has no idea what's up. In that case you just go business as usual until told different.
    You are right, in in way, that is how the real world works… but it isn’t how the culture of football works, where the role of the press is important (unlike your workplace).

    There is a clearly understood meaning to interim and they did not appoint Perez interim. In fact, they buried him in the presser Sunday. They gave him the NE game and nothing else.

    So Perez asserting that he is the manager until told otherwise is kind of brash, and points out to the world that they aren’t communicating with him. All he had to say was “I will do whatever I am asked” and he and Manning both know it.

    Listen, like I said, I like it. People are going to be taking runs at Curtis and Manning now. Sometimes you gotta grab the ring. Go Javier!
    Last edited by ensco; 07-08-2021 at 02:55 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    As someone who works in government, I have to really appreciate this quote from Curtis in all its non-sensical and ambiguous glory:


    "(The) goal is to name a permanent interim (coach) prior to Monday training, likely before that.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    You are right, in in way, that is how the real world works… but it isn’t how the culture of football works, where the role of the press is important (unlike your workplace).

    There is a clearly understood meaning to interim and they did not appoint Perez interim. In fact, they buried him in the presser Sunday. They gave him the NE game and nothing else.

    So Perez asserting that he is the manager until told otherwise is kind of brash, and points out to the world that they aren’t communicating with him. All he had to say was “I will do whatever I am asked” and he and Manning both know it.

    Listen, like I said, I like it. People are going to be taking runs at Curtis and Manning now. Sometimes you gotta grab the ring. Go Javier!
    Yeah, ballsy move.

    My experience in getting promoted repeatedly despite being kind of nuts at the time is they don't care as long as you come good; but ballsy and speaking your mind when it really matters pretty much always beats staying quiet and taking it up the rump. Nobody ever got anywhere by not doing anything (okay, completely untrue in business where quiet easy going guys are peter princpled all the fucking time. But it sounded good).

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    Naming an interim to replace a temp or whatever you want to call him. The interim I assume is coming from within I would assume but you never know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    As someone who works in government, I have to really appreciate this quote from Curtis in all its non-sensical and ambiguous glory:


    "(The) goal is to name a permanent interim (coach) prior to Monday training, likely before that.”

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    As someone who works in government, I have to really appreciate this quote from Curtis in all its non-sensical and ambiguous glory:


    "(The) goal is to name a permanent interim (coach) prior to Monday training, likely before that.”
    "Permanent Interim". Nice.

 

 

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