Bono vs. Westberg.

[Red CB Toronto]

It has to be said, the game the Reds are currently playing has greatly changed from the one they played under Greg. Alex's passes yesterday vs the Crew vs. Westberg's passes in Vanney's last game. The yellow lines are incomplete.

One way to highlight how drastic a change the team is going through, the Reds has gone from mostly avoiding long balls into the middle of the pitch to actively encouraging them. Alex is the younger GK and it is obvious to me Chris is trying to figure out what exactly he has in Alex. As we all know early on in his career Alex had a great backline in front of him and they obviously played a part in his play, including backstopping them to a the MLS Cup title in 2017.



Regardng the number of incomplete long passes, they're not really expecting Bono to be pinging 50-yard balls to feet. The idea is that they likely create an aerial duel, which likely gets headed one way or another and creates a loose ball, which = counterpressing opportunity. This really has become Alex's job to loose. I do wonder what it would take for Westberg to wrestle it back, guess we will learn at some point.

[rydermike]

Seems like the only way Westberg will get a chance is if Bono gets a red card or injured. It'd be one thing if he was playing exceptional, but his game has been fairly meh, nothing super terrible, but no real moments of brilliance, plus he has a couple what the heck moments a game. Westberg deserves a start, even if its only for one of these midweek game. Keep the second keeper fresh (and give him the chance to take back the job that was his). It's almost like Armas doesn't want to give Westberg a chance because he knows once he does, he'll keep the job.

[portu]

This whole thing is giving me Bendik vs Frei flashbacks. We all know who the better keeper was.

[SirBobSaget]

My hope is they are showcasing Bono hoping that another club has a GK emergency and is willing to bite on the 450k price tag. To compare Andre Blake, arguably the best GK in MLS is on 600k.
If your allocating 450k then it should be for a solid first choice.

[PaceyWinger]

My thing is this: in a healthy lineup could you ever imagine Auro sitting for Laryea or Vice Versa? Then why is this even a thing at all? Of course Bones should sit. Is he more valuable in any way than Auro or Laryea? The answer is a resounding no. Let's quit pretending this guy is Michael Bradley and is allergic to sitting down and move on. We play 2x a week there are enough games for both stop being stupid Chris Armas.

[ensco]

I like Westberg, but I don’t think Westberg established THAT much distance between himself and Bono over the last two years. So I don’t think what Armas is doing here is obviously crazy or something, and I am sort of surprised by all the chatter about this.

There is a reason Q makes what he makes. There is no market for a 5’ 10” GK. That San Jose free kick going over Q in stoppage time early last year, you can’t just ignore that. There are other examples. Seattle's second goal in MLS Cup 2019 was a beautiful shot but the guy had no angle, or wouldn’t have against a taller GK. What is Q going to do with this Bjorn Johnsen guy in the box?

Also he's 35, and maybe the team sees something in practice, when you start to lose the tiniest fraction of your reaction speed, it's over....

But hey, Westberg stopping that penalty in Atlanta, he gets free beers for life for that.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the end result of all this is that we bring in a new GK in the summer.

[Yohan]

Q is listed as 6'1"

But I agree with what ensco says.

John Molinaro has an article on the GK debate on his website.

Basically, expect Bono to be #1 for a while, until Armas loses confidence in him

[OgtheDim]

My thing is this: in a healthy lineup could you ever imagine Auro sitting for Laryea or Vice Versa? Then why is this even a thing at all? Of course Bones should sit. Is he more valuable in any way than Auro or Laryea? The answer is a resounding no. Let's quit pretending this guy is Michael Bradley and is allergic to sitting down and move on. We play 2x a week there are enough games for both stop being stupid Chris Armas.

IMHO, we are seeing less turnover in the squad then under Vanney. Apart from injuries, people are not being switched out unless somebody better is brought in.

We have 3 possible changes from Columbus for Saturday.

Does Lawrence start at LB & does that put Richie over Delgado.

Does Jozy start over Ayo.

If Oso can start (unlikely), he replaces Priso.

[East Coast Red]

Just for the debate here's my 2 cents worth.

There are 4 main areas where keepers are judged. Handling, shot stopping, organisation/command of area and distribution.

Handling, Westberg wins hands down. Bono juggles and fumbles nearly half of the crosses or shots close to his body, Q isn't perfect, but his handling is very good. Shot stopping, maybe I'd call that a draw, both have had good and bad moments. Overall I think Westberg has made more big saves, but there isn't a lot between them. Organisation is simple, Westberg is very good at commanding the back line and his positioning as a sweeper keeper is fantastic, Bono is well, Bono. Distribution is a no contest. Agian, Westberg is very, very good, Bono just panics and slices it as far upfield as he can.

Bono has just one thing in his favour, his age.

[jloome]

I like Westberg, but I don’t think Westberg established THAT much distance between himself and Bono over the last two years. So I don’t think what Armas is doing here is obviously crazy or something, and I am sort of surprised by all the chatter about this.

There is a reason Q makes what he makes. There is no market for a 5’ 10” GK. That San Jose free kick going over Q in stoppage time early last year, you can’t just ignore that. There are other examples. Seattle's second goal in MLS Cup 2019 was a beautiful shot but the guy had no angle, or wouldn’t have against a taller GK. What is Q going to do with this Bjorn Johnsen guy in the box?

Also he's 35, and maybe the team sees something in practice, when you start to lose the tiniest fraction of your reaction speed, it's over....

But hey, Westberg stopping that penalty in Atlanta, he gets free beers for life for that.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the end result of all this is that we bring in a new GK in the summer.

I get that your current bent is to calm people down over Armas, but Westberg has been a much better goalie on every level than Bono, it isn't even close, there isn't an argument to be made.

Ridiculous to compare them.

Westberg hasn't set a foot wrong since we've got him and he doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the flailing performances Bono has put in since 2017. Even in the Championship year, it was apparent he is error prone.

Bono is a good shot stopper. He saved a sure goal in at least two of our games so far this season. He also has no control over his box, makes rash decisions, positions himself poorly and distributes terribly.

Westberg is 5'10.... which is the same height as Nick Rimando, one of the greatest goalies in league history and, therefore, something of a moot argument.

He got beat high side once? Bono has been beaten high side twice already this season, and short side twice as well.

I don't know how you try to draw this one as "there's not much difference." There's a huge fucking difference. Q has looked like a good starting goalie at this level, Bono has looked like he shouldn't be in there, consistently.

Time, schmime. He made bad decisions in 2017, he makes the same bad decisions four years later. He HAS cost us games, Q HAS saved us games.

This is just defending the establishment's current direction; there's nothing in reality other than the wage being paid to suggest Bono is HALF the goalie Westberg is.

[Ultra & Proud]

Does Lawrence start at LB & does that put Richie over Delgado.

Does Jozy start over Ayo.

If Oso can start (unlikely), he replaces Priso.

I say yes to all but I assume no Oso either. If you want to play your best available XI then that's it.

[OgtheDim]

Reading the tea leaves

Bono started because Westberg got back with the team late (who knows why) - otherwise, it was going to be Westberg

Bono doesn't do anything that bugs Armas & does some things that Armas likes to see in terms of shot stopping (not sure Armas understood all Luis Robles did for his team)

Armas sticks with Bono because that's what Armas does

[jloome]

Reading the tea leaves

Bono started because Westberg got back with the team late (who knows why) - otherwise, it was going to be Westberg

Bono doesn't do anything that bugs Armas & does some things that Armas likes to see in terms of shot stopping (not sure Armas understood all Luis Robles did for his team)

Armas sticks with Bono because that's what Armas does

Entirely possible.

To me, there's no comparison and Westberg's in there as soon as possible. But maybe Armas is trying to play Bono into confidence. It may be a smart decision long run, I'm just not sure poor decision making in the split second is an issue solved by confidence.

If it was, Joe Bendik would've wound up a great keeper. He was a good shot stopper who had easily shaken confidence but when given chances to start again, he never got past the gaffes. Are bad decisions resolvable? I dunno. Not really my issue as a fan; I want us to win games and the other guy did well for us.

But maybe he's seeing something in training we're not, like Westberg showing some age. Tough to say, but on record -- on what we DO know -- Q should be starting.

[jabbronies]

This whole thing is giving me Bendik vs Frei flashbacks. We all know who the better keeper was.

So who is Bendik and who is Frei in this situation?

IMO - Bono stays in because he hasn't done enough to warrant being pulled.

Plenty of season left. We'll see how it pans out, but I don't see Armas doing anything that will jeopardize a legit trophy opportunity.
If Bono starts to become a "Zavaleta" I don't see Armas sticking with him. But that hasn't happened yet.

But if the debate is - who is better? My vote is Q

[OgtheDim]

Entirely possible.

To me, there's no comparison and Westberg's in there as soon as possible. But maybe Armas is trying to play Bono into confidence. It may be a smart decision long run, I'm just not sure poor decision making in the split second is an issue solved by confidence.

If it was, Joe Bendik would've wound up a great keeper. He was a good shot stopper who had easily shaken confidence but when given chances to start again, he never got past the gaffes. ..

On Bendik, I think he had supreme confidence in himself & was very good at forgetting the gaffes.

His problem was...he made gaffes.


He's now the #3 keeper at Philly on 200K a year - only 31.

[ensco]

I get that your current bent is to calm people down over Armas, but Westberg has been a much better goalie on every level than Bono, it isn't even close, there isn't an argument to be made.

Ridiculous to compare them.

Westberg hasn't set a foot wrong since we've got him and he doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the flailing performances Bono has put in since 2017. Even in the Championship year, it was apparent he is error prone.

Bono is a good shot stopper. He saved a sure goal in at least two of our games so far this season. He also has no control over his box, makes rash decisions, positions himself poorly and distributes terribly.

Westberg is 5'10.... which is the same height as Nick Rimando, one of the greatest goalies in league history and, therefore, something of a moot argument.

He got beat high side once? Bono has been beaten high side twice already this season, and short side twice as well.

I don't know how you try to draw this one as "there's not much difference." There's a huge fucking difference. Q has looked like a good starting goalie at this level, Bono has looked like he shouldn't be in there, consistently.

Time, schmime. He made bad decisions in 2017, he makes the same bad decisions four years later. He HAS cost us games, Q HAS saved us games.

This is just defending the establishment's current direction; there's nothing in reality other than the wage being paid to suggest Bono is HALF the goalie Westberg is.

Good rant.

We see the importance of shot stopping differently. We also see how Bono has played this year so far differently.

Like I said, I actually think they are both gone.

Re defending Armas, it isn’t defending management. Obviously we are among the 5 most talented teams in MLS and should have played better.

I am saying that Canadian teams in MLS are all screwed in the pandemic. We will see.

[jloome]

Good rant.

We see the importance of shot stopping differently. We also see how Bono has played this year so far differently.

Like I said, I actually think they are both gone.

Re defending Armas, it isn’t defending management. Obviously we are among the 5 most talented teams in MLS and should have played better.

I am saying that Canadian teams in MLS are all screwed in the pandemic. We will see.

It may be so.

Q has been a very good keeper for us. He looked slightly mortal by the end of last season but had reminded be a lot of Frei before that, good at pretty much everything, dependable.

It bears wondering why they didn't draft either Buchanan or Dane St. Clair, given how effortlessly both Canadians have transitioned to MLS.

I don't think we've ever really had a top keeper prospect. Never should have gotten rid of Frei, but that's obvious.

[DavemTFC]

But maybe he's seeing something in training we're not, like Westberg showing some age.

This would be the only acceptable reason why Westberg isn't playing. Of course, as you say, outsiders like us won't know if that's actually true until Westberg starts since no coach or player will publicly say if a guy has lost a step/reflex in training

On Frei, in retrospect we got absolutely fleeced for him but at the time it really wasn't a given he could even get back to 2009-2011 levels, nevermind the level he's shown in the last half decade. He'd spent nearly 2 years injured and then a year being a backup to Joe f'ing Bendik (sound familiar?) so it was a major risk to pick him up on what I believe was still the same relatively high-priced contract for an MLS keeper at the time. He was actually fairly mistake-prone in his first year in Seattle and not all teams would have given him that big a leash, but by the end of the year he was back to his best and the rest is history. TFC definitely messed up by not playing him at all and tanking his value so much they only got a (conditional!) draft pick in return, though I think by then there was no way Frei was going to stay and get anywhere near starting quality again. After 7 coaches in 5 years and the last 2 1/2 being riddled with injuries and benchwarming, he really needed a fresh start. Him winning 2 cups is a small solace for watching my team lose 2 and I hope the injury he had last game isn't too serious

[rydermike]

The only way Armas will start Westberg.

Replace Pena and Hatteberg with Bono Westberg

[Prof]

My hope is they are showcasing Bono hoping that another club has a GK emergency and is willing to bite on the 450k price tag. To compare Andre Blake, arguably the best GK in MLS is on 600k.
If your allocating 450k then it should be for a solid first choice.

Portland is in desperate need of a keeper. Hopefully they will bite on Bono.

[ag futbol]

It’s a bit too critical a position to be playing someone until they find their confidence. Perhaps he can try that for Indy 11 or San Antonio, but not here.

It’s also a little bit of a stretch to suggest this is just a confidence issue. Confidence isn’t about organizing the wall in the wrong place or some of the other things we’ve seen. That’s just poor technique. Playing him more isn’t going to solve that.

After next game that’s 10 real fixtures we’ve given him to sort things out (4 CCL, 6 MLS). That’s more than generous enough. It’s time to move on. I doubt Westberg will look worse. He might have age catching up to him and we might need to get into the market for a keeper but I doubt he’ll be more of a distraction that Bono is.

[Oldtimer]

IMO Q's better distribution is a bigger factor than the other ones, but I'm pretty sure it will be a while until he gets a chance again.

I take consolation that no matter what Armas decides, both keepers are decidedly better than Freddy Hall.

[portu]

Wasn’t sure where best to put this because it has pretty wide applicability to Armas and this week’s match, but I encourage everyone to listen to this Bono interview on pravda.

https://youtu.be/RHLSs6actv8

Massive respect to the guy for being so forward facing following a shitty week. I don’t imagine Bono doesn’t start this week given club philosophy on “mistakes”. When you listen to this you’ll also hear a lot about ‘the Armas way’. And if you read my little synopsis of Armas at Red Bulls you’ll hear some things stick out “we always want to win but we can’t win all the time”; trying to manage a very nuanced system (possession v pressing).

Something that sticks out when evaluating the unique situation for the team this year:
- The guys are in a much better place mentally then in Hartford (Florida is relatively open, guys have family there, not living in hotels, etc)
- The team strongly believes that they can go all the way this year.
- Armas definitely has the room. I feel like when I listen to any player talk I’m hearing Armas.

Inclined to give Armas and Bono the benefit of the doubt for the next few weeks. But push has got to come to shove at some point.