Chris Armas Evaluation Thread

[James17930]

I absolutely hate all this. I hate it when we're bad and all the drama blows up and the club seems dysfunctional and it's like the old days again. We haven't had to put up with this since 2015, and I'd forgotten how much I hate it. But just want to give my two cents.

Maybe Armas sucks, or maybe it takes more time to get things going when you take over a new team. I don't know. I just hope it gets figured out soon because I don't want to have to suffer through a season of sucking. He's definitely got the Bono/Q situation wrong; I mean, even if he wants to make Bono the number one, after this many games in the season the backup should've had at least 1 game, so he's def. got something against Q and I have no idea why.

As for the Altidore situation, though, I have to come down on the side of Armas and the club, and I'm actually baffled that so many people, both here and in the media, seem to be supporting Altidore.

Altidore is a giant, selfish, spoiled baby. Maybe he was always like this but it didn't really manifest until after Giovinco left, or maybe that incident soured him against the club, or whatever, but all of the crap he's pulled in the last few years has proven that he should not be here anymore (not to mention the injuries). Now, it seems, Armas and/or Curtis and/or Manning have had enough and have put their foot down. How can that be criticized? How is that 'bad man management' on the part of Armas?

I see the argument being made 'Vanney knew how to handle Altidore, Armas doesn't.' By all accounts Vanney 'handling' Altidore was to basically let him get away with whatever he wanted. Jozy throws a tantrum? Vanney takes it. Jozy insults his teammates, Vanney tells them to ignore it. This isn't 'handling,' this is appeasement. This is enabling shitty behaviour. And I don't believe in that.

So Altidore tried this again and Armas said no and that's what should happen. Questions about Armas's ability as a coach are a separate issue.

[MightyDM]

I see the Jozy situation completely differently.

He wears his heart on his sleeve. There is no crap he keeps pulling. (“ but all of the crap he's pulled in the last few years has proven that he should not be here anymore”) and I don’t buy the locker room leaks - there has been one source claiming two incidents - not multiple sources - and the media don’t ever hint that he is an issue there.

I suspect he called Armas out for the mistakes he was making. And he is right even if wrong to do it.

[Ultra & Proud]

I see the Jozy situation completely differently.

He wears his heart on his sleeve. There is no crap he keeps pulling. (“ but all of the crap he's pulled in the last few years has proven that he should not be here anymore”) and I don’t buy the locker room leaks - there has been one source claiming two incidents - not multiple sources - and the media don’t ever hint that he is an issue there.

I suspect he called Armas out for the mistakes he was making. And he is right even if wrong to do it.

I think both are at fault. Jozy has a history of being a big mouth, pouty child who without a doubt isn't well liked by teammates but he probably called out Armas for being a clown. I bet most of the locker room are hoping for the same thing I am; Jozy + Armas out ASAP.

[ag futbol]

I think both are at fault. Jozy has a history of being a big mouth, pouty child who without a doubt isn't well liked by teammates but he probably called out Armas for being a clown. I bet most of the locker room are hoping for the same thing I am; Jozy + Armas out ASAP.

That would be my interpretation of it as well. Altidore has burnt his bridges with his teammates and let’s be honest, he hasn’t performed in a long time.

I’m not sure if Armas has lost the room but at a minimum there looks to be a lot of confusion.

[Bushmancan]

Next 5 games, we have Orlando, Nashville, Cincinnati, New England and DC. (lots of games in a two week period Jun19 - July 7). How many points you think we are going to get from these games?

Projected strikeforce Dwyer, Akinola, Mullinho - healthy Poz (can make anyone look good), possibly Osorio, questionable Soteldo

If they don't get more than 6, Armas should be gone.... 9 will keep his job, but there was a time I wouldn't have settled for less than 13.

[MightyDM]

People I respect in this board are saying things like this “ Altidore has burnt his bridges with his teammates “ and there isn’t a hint of evidence to support that, not in body language after he scored his goal or anything’s else - just a rumour out of the locker room posted on these boards.

Lots of evidence that he thinks before he speaks, wears his heart on his sleeve, etc. etc. Lots of fair criticism there but absent other evidence I don’t buy the locker room stuff. It’s too inconsistent with everything else we see with our own eyes. What it is consistent with are the kinds of rumours that are started by sports management every time they try to get rid of a star. We’ve seen it lots of times in Toronto; it’s a well worn path.

[Richard]

They don't event needs to start a rumor to get rid of him. He has underperformed(as expected) for the last three years after signing his contract.

Cut him loose and be done with it. Dont we have one buyout a year?

[MightyDM]

Next 5 games, we have Orlando, Nashville, Cincinnati, New England and DC. (lots of games in a two week period Jun19 - July 7). How many points you think we are going to get from these games?

Projected strikeforce Dwyer, Akinola, Mullinho - healthy Poz (can make anyone look good), possibly Osorio, questionable Soteldo

If they don't get more than 6, Armas should be gone.... 9 will keep his job, but there was a time I wouldn't have settled for less than 13.

Regardless of points, they need to look like a really good team working together in a system. And the system better fit their skills

[Richard]

I don't understand the Armas hire at all by Ali. If the coach doesn't want to change his style to suit the team then you fire him(for poor performance), or let him make whole sale personal changes to fit his vision.

Did we really need to fix what's not broken? It's clear as day the team is not suited for the tactics Armas wants to play, so he needs to learn and have multiple strategies, or we will continue on this path of misery.

[jloome]

I don't understand the Armas hire at all by Ali. If the coach doesn't want to change his style to suit the team then you fire him(for poor performance), or let him make whole sale personal changes to fit his vision.

Did we really need to fix what's not broken? It's clear as day the team is not suited for the tactics Armas wants to play, so he needs to learn and have multiple strategies, or we will continue on this path of misery.

It just all reminds me of Mo redux. Curtis is an ex Mac Hermann winner who didn't really make it professionally, he comes across as uncommunicative, always trying to massage a message rather than talk straight. He was ridiculed internally at NYRB over his '300 page plan' to rebuild the club. His one real success was the youth development there, but it was already in place when he arrived.

He feuded with Marsch and they kept Marsch, even though they planned to move Marsch along to RB Salzburg. So evidently, the football-centric organization there currently building a fairly substantial profile globally for staff development did not rate him.

When Armas replaced Marsch, RB fans say he felt constricted in the temporary role because he had to play things by RB tactical guidance, down the line. As soon as he was the full-time manager, he began tinkering with positions, playing guys out and favoring players he liked or didn't , leading to a metldown by their DP and request to be traded.

It's just MLS 1.0 all over again. MLSE and our president are clearly too divorced from the day-to-day of the league and its requirements to recognize that they are being snowed once more.

Instead of Mo and Paul Mariner, we have Ali and Chris Armas. Let's just say that for now, that's clearly what this appears to be.

[Richard]

Excellent analysis. It does feel like MLS 1.0.

[MightyDM]

It just all reminds me of Mo redux. Curtis is an ex Mac Hermann winner who didn't really make it professionally, he comes across as uncommunicative, always trying to massage a message rather than talk straight. He was ridiculed internally at NYRB over his '300 page plan' to rebuild the club. His one real success was the youth development there, but it was already in place when he arrived.

He feuded with Marsch and they kept Marsch, even though they planned to move Marsch along to RB Salzburg. So evidently, the football-centric organization there currently building a fairly substantial profile globally for staff development did not rate him.

When Armas replaced Marsch, RB fans say he felt constricted in the temporary role because he had to play things by RB tactical guidance, down the line. As soon as he was the full-time manager, he began tinkering with positions, playing guys out and favoring players he liked or didn't , leading to a metldown by their DP and request to be traded.

It's just MLS 1.0 all over again. MLSE and our president are clearly too divorced from the day-to-day of the league and its requirements to recognize that they are being snowed once more.

Instead of Mo and Paul Mariner, we have Ali and Chris Armas. Let's just say that for now, that's clearly what this appears to be.

Worth repeating

[DavemTFC]

People I respect in this board are saying things like this “ Altidore has burnt his bridges with his teammates “ and there isn’t a hint of evidence to support that, not in body language after he scored his goal or anything’s else - just a rumour out of the locker room posted on these boards.

Lots of evidence that he thinks before he speaks, wears his heart on his sleeve, etc. etc. Lots of fair criticism there but absent other evidence I don’t buy the locker room stuff. It’s too inconsistent with everything else we see with our own eyes. What it is consistent with are the kinds of rumours that are started by sports management every time they try to get rid of a star. We’ve seen it lots of times in Toronto; it’s a well worn path.

Good, timely post this. We all need to make sure we're criticizing what we can see and backup using evidence instead of rumours. In other words, keeping criticisms about his play, which we can all see and agree is below DP standard, separate from criticisms about him "burning bridges" which is plausible and could ultimately be true but for now is not proven and ultimately mostly a projection we've given ourselves

[spe18]

Reports that Antonio Conte looking to coach "in America".

Hopefully he means by saying "North America" to include the 3 Canadian teams lol.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/repor...o-coach-in-mls

Perfect fit @ Toronto FC?!

[OgtheDim]

No thanks...guy does 2 years and then is out.

[Oldtimer]

Reports that Antonio Conte looking to coach "in America".

Hopefully he means by saying "North America" to include the 3 Canadian teams lol.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/repor...o-coach-in-mls

Perfect fit @ Toronto FC?!

ummm no. We have problems enough already.

[ag futbol]

No thanks...guy does 2 years and then is out.

Yeah agreed. If we do replace Curtis, get someone that in theory could be here for the long run.

[DavemTFC]

I'd definitely take Conte for 2 years as a stopgap. I don't think he'd have any interest in a job where he has to defer completely to Ali Curtis, but if in some fantasy world he did, I'd take him

[portu]

No thanks...guy does 2 years and then is out.

This is kind of a crazy take. If club infrastructure is adequate, then there is no reason why you couldn’t hire and fire managers every 2-3 years.

[OgtheDim]

This is kind of a crazy take. If club infrastructure is adequate, then there is no reason why you couldn’t hire and fire managers every 2-3 years.

Cap league - 2 years is a blip - see Tata Martino

[jloome]

Cap league - 2 years is a blip - see Tata Martino

I wouldn't labor under the impression that Atlanta regrets that hire, so it's not an ideal example. He won them the cup, then left. If Conte came here and produced same, nobody would complain that he went early.

I don't disagree that a longer term coach is preferable.

[James17930]

I'd definitely take Conte for 2 years as a stopgap. I don't think he'd have any interest in a job where he has to defer completely to Ali Curtis, but if in some fantasy world he did, I'd take him

Yeah, if he - apparently - turned down Spurs because he wasn't happy with the transfer budget, how's he going to deal with a salary cap and roster restrictions?

[ag futbol]

I wouldn't labor under the impression that Atlanta regrets that hire, so it's not an ideal example. He won them the cup, then left. If Conte came here and produced same, nobody would complain that he went early.

I don't disagree that a longer term coach is preferable.

Maybe we’re all just gun shy because of the number of terrible coaching hires we’ve had to live with.

The complication here is really Curtis. Our ability to attract a good candidate with him at the helm is questionable.

[OgtheDim]

I wouldn't labor under the impression that Atlanta regrets that hire, so it's not an ideal example. He won them the cup, then left. If Conte came here and produced same, nobody would complain that he went early.

I don't disagree that a longer term coach is preferable.

ATL has been a feces show afterwards because people came to them due to Martino.

Don't do short term hires in MLS - it never pays.

[Areathrasher]

When Conte talks about managing in North America i presume he means in his twilight years kind of like Lippi and Cappello taking odd jobs in China and other far flung places for $$$$.

I'd take him for a year or two, it'd be good craic and we'd win a few things

[Canary10]

When Conte talks about managing in North America i presume he means in his twilight years kind of like Lippi and Cappello taking odd jobs in China and other far flung places for $$$$.

I'd take him for a year or two, it'd be good craic and we'd win a few things

I'm sure it sounds like a nice idea to him until he hears the words GAM, TAM and DP and figures out what they mean.

[Areathrasher]

I'm sure it sounds like a nice idea to him until he hears the words GAM, TAM and DP and figures out what they mean.

More than likley, yea

[ag futbol]

I'm sure it sounds like a nice idea to him until he hears the words GAM, TAM and DP and figures out what they mean.

I feel like this aspect gets slightly overplayed.

We can easily hire someone to get him the expertise in that area. But can he go from dealing with a champagne and caviar roster to a beer budget? That’s the bigger issue for these foreign coaches , IMO.

The managers from lesser leagues do okay cause they get things aren’t perfect and you sometimes coach players to a standard less than perfection and that’s still good enough to win. The top end euro guys trip over their feet more often, although I struggle to think of a recent example. FDB looked flawed to me before he even set foot in Atlanta, so I exclude him from the list.

[portu]

I feel like this aspect gets slightly overplayed.

We can easily hire someone to get him the expertise in that area. But can he go from dealing with a champagne and caviar roster to a beer budget? That’s the bigger issue for these foreign coaches , IMO.

The managers from lesser leagues do okay cause they get things aren’t perfect and you sometimes coach players to a standard less than perfection and that’s still good enough to win. The top end euro guys trip over their feet more often, although I struggle to think of a recent example. FDB looked flawed to me before he even set foot in Atlanta, so I exclude him from the list.

This is a good assessment of the foreign manager debate. I find it a telling aspect of the American nationalism of MLS that FDB’s failure sticks in minds more than Tata making an expansion side dominant within 2 years. A little bit of recency bias sure, but there’s definitely still a stigma to hiring foreign. That’s why the Armas’s of the world get hired for jobs they have now business being in. Feeds into the whole thing that getting hired as a head coach in this league means a job for life. It’s also why there hasn’t been a single Canadian sitting as President, GM or Head Coach since Daso.

[MightyDM]

This is a good assessment of the foreign manager debate. I find it a telling aspect of the American nationalism of MLS that FDB’s failure sticks in minds more than Tata making an expansion side dominant within 2 years. A little bit of recency bias sure, but there’s definitely still a stigma to hiring foreign. That’s why the Armas’s of the world get hired for jobs they have now business being in. Feeds into the whole thing that getting hired as a head coach in this league means a job for life. It’s also why there hasn’t been a single Canadian sitting as President, GM or Head Coach since Daso.

Also because this is explicitly intended to be a development league for American management and coaches. Not Canadians.