Chris Armas Evaluation Thread

[portu]

The Armas pressure is definitely going to deflate with the international break. It will be interesting to see if he basically has a fresh slate from June 19 or if the pressure immediately returns given the emotional nature of these kinds of sentiments.

Still think July 7 is the latest time at which a determination can be made. If he’s showing promise he stays but if he’s shit he deserves the boot. July 7 is the date where this is no longer about Armas and instead about Curtis. Same principle as Armas and Bono, at a certain point the superior must assume full responsibility.

[MightyDM]

Good points. For me, the first game back is almost going to determine his immediate fate. Of after three weeks they look disorganized and easy to play against, people will be up in arms. If commentators like Doyle are already saying, in effect, the coaching and tactics at TFC are crap, the criticism will all come flooding back.

Even if the first game is OK, he won’t get a pass until there is a consistent run of good form. He has put his future at risk with strange tactics and personnel decisions that have been noticed all around the league, not just by us.

He might well keep his job. But not his credibility.

[MightyDM]

A Bradley quote from Molinaro article on Priso:

“You have to really understand football to understand what he brings to the game and what he brings to our team in terms of balance, in terms of sniffing plays out, coming away with tackles and loose balls.“

Here because it puts Armas decisions into (bad) perspective. (Edit for clarity)

[Ben - D.O.W.]

“You have to really understand football to understand...“

Edit - apparently wasn't an Armas quote. Still over him.

[portu]

From Molinaro article on Priso:

“You have to really understand football to understand what he brings to the game and what he brings to our team in terms of balance, in terms of sniffing plays out, coming away with tackles and loose balls.“

This is a Bradley comment

[jabbronies]

This is a Bradley comment

I figured it was probably more a shot at Armas. Playing Auro over Priso.

[portu]

Good points. For me, the first game back is almost going to determine his immediate fate. Of after three weeks they look disorganized and easy to play against, people will be up in arms. If commentators like Doyle are already saying, in effect, the coaching and tactics at TFC are crap, the criticism will all come flooding back.

Even if the first game is OK, he won’t get a pass until there is a consistent run of good form. He has put his future at risk with strange tactics and personnel decisions that have been noticed all around the league, not just by us.

He might well keep his job. But not his credibility.

One win can completely alter perception though. It’s amazing how much good will was generated by beating Columbus. I feel like he could lose the next four matches 1 nil, win the fifth match and all pressure would be alleviated.

All I want is for Curtis to give some clear expectations for this club under Armas when he speaks to Molinaro this week. Let us know what your measuring stick is and don’t piss about with the metrics. Be clear that one win from six and two from 11 is unacceptable and that the club wants to see results by X date. Show that you’re actually competent and be transparent, man.

Club goals and results are entirely incompatible at the moment, so something has to budge. You can’t say you want to be a winner and actively prop up a losing system.

[jloome]

One win can completely alter perception though. It’s amazing how much good will was generated by beating Columbus. I feel like he could lose the next four matches 1 nil, win the fifth match and all pressure would be alleviated.

All I want is for Curtis to give some clear expectations for this club under Armas when he speaks to Molinaro this week. Let us know what your measuring stick is and don’t piss about with the metrics. Be clear that one win from six and two from 11 is unacceptable and that the club wants to see results by X date. Show that you’re actually competent and be transparent, man.

Club goals and results are entirely incompatible at the moment, so something has to budge. You can’t say you want to be a winner and actively prop up a losing system.

I’m obviously nervous about Armas but I’m also acutely aware we’re seeing an adjustment period, trying new things, with multiple top players injured. I haven’t lost hope he’ll turn it around, but only because there are other scenarios than him being all-around terrible that are as plausible.

I suspect some of this, as with John Carver, is a fairly hyperactive, athletic nature that makes him seem like a gung-ho sports bro and not thoughtful. But that’s my judging someone I don’t know well enough on some indicators.

Maybe he is inflexible, shortsighted and arrogant. Or maybe he’s found himself in two jobs where those above him have some heavy Demands.

he was working to the Red Bull system there and was reportedly frustrated with inflexibility. It’s possible he’s being told by Ali to stick to the high press, to showcase Nelson and to showcase Richie At right back. That would’ve forced him to move Auro inside or unfairly drop him to get lawrence into the team.

Who knows what the internal politics are. If the players love the guy, we at least need to see how he does with a healthy squad and a few months of adjustment.

So I’m holding off on #Armasout until at
least the second half.

I suspect Chris Cummins was a pretty good coach. But having a shit front office ruined him. Same to some degree with Winter, who had MARINER watching his back, the guy who wanted his job.

[MightyDM]

I’m obviously nervous about Armas but I’m also acutely aware we’re seeing an adjustment period, trying new things, with multiple top players injured. I haven’t lost hope he’ll turn it around, but only because there are other scenarios than him being all-around terrible that are as plausible.

I suspect some of this, as with John Carver, is a fairly hyperactive, athletic nature that makes him seem like a gung-ho sports bro and not thoughtful. But that’s my judging someone I don’t know well enough on some indicators.

Maybe he is inflexible, shortsighted and arrogant. Or maybe he’s found himself in two jobs where those above him have some heavy Demands.

he was working to the Red Bull system there and was reportedly frustrated with inflexibility. It’s possible he’s being told by Ali to stick to the high press, to showcase Nelson and to showcase Richie At right back. That would’ve forced him to move Auro inside or unfairly drop him to get lawrence into the team.

Who knows what the internal politics are. If the players love the guy, we at least need to see how he does with a healthy squad and a few months of adjustment.

So I’m holding off on #Armasout until at
least the second half.

I suspect Chris Cummins was a pretty good coach. But having a shit front office ruined him. Same to some degree with Winter, who had MARINER watching his back, the guy who wanted his job.

Very fair. But I am worried indeed. If he actually spoke about his decisions in a way that showed competence it would help give hope that the mess on the field is a transition and an experiment; but when the best writer in MLS (Doyle) essentially echoes the criticisms on these boards it becomes very hard to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Bushmancan]

I figured it was probably more a shot at Armas. Playing Auro over Priso.

Thats how i saw it...

[MightyDM]

Thats how i saw it...

That’s how I meant it - to be clear Bradley was interview after a game when Priso played. He wasn’t taking a shot at Armas, I was.

[Initial B]

I'm still on the fence about Armas. This year has been odd due to COVID, but that can't be an excuse as Vanney had similar issues in 2020 and at least made the play-off with a similar roster to what Armas has now. I'm just going to accept whatever happens this year, but if we're seeing the same issues in the first 7 games of 2022, Armas should be gone no question.

[portu]

Very fair. But I am worried indeed. If he actually spoke about his decisions in a way that showed competence it would help give hope that the mess on the field is a transition and an experiment; but when the best writer in MLS (Doyle) essentially echoes the criticisms on these boards it becomes very hard to give the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah, the concerns we all carry about the direction of the team are legitimate. I understand not wanting to gear decisions towards fan sentiment (one of the things Bez wanted to change when he came in). They shouldn’t fire a guy just because I get pissed on this board. However, refusing to acknowledge that there are obvious issues and acting as if we all don’t have eyes is gaslighting your fan base.

Armas calling Bono ‘top tier’ and the fuck you “Block out the noise” tweet prior to Alex bouncing the ball off a guys head into our own goal after completely fumbling an easy shot is probably a good example. You know the right way to deal with that? What they did afterward when they put him on a 50 minute podcast, instead of just saying fuck you he’s an all star.

Everyone sees the shitshow. They can’t act as if it’s not happening before our eyes. Don’t fire the guy because the fans say so, but recognize this is a football club that requires communication and fan engagement to be successful. Some questions being asked of management are legitimate and should be answered, instead of ignored.

[trane]

Okay, I guess ... but context:

Being down 2-0 in a playoff game and likely pinching forward in a must win situation

vs.

Being tied zero-zero and pinching forward in the first half when there is still everything to play for.

Exactly.

[trane]

I’m obviously nervous about Armas but I’m also acutely aware we’re seeing an adjustment period, trying new things, with multiple top players injured. I haven’t lost hope he’ll turn it around, but only because there are other scenarios than him being all-around terrible that are as plausible.

I suspect some of this, as with John Carver, is a fairly hyperactive, athletic nature that makes him seem like a gung-ho sports bro and not thoughtful. But that’s my judging someone I don’t know well enough on some indicators.

Maybe he is inflexible, shortsighted and arrogant. Or maybe he’s found himself in two jobs where those above him have some heavy Demands.

he was working to the Red Bull system there and was reportedly frustrated with inflexibility. It’s possible he’s being told by Ali to stick to the high press, to showcase Nelson and to showcase Richie At right back. That would’ve forced him to move Auro inside or unfairly drop him to get lawrence into the team.

Who knows what the internal politics are. If the players love the guy, we at least need to see how he does with a healthy squad and a few months of adjustment.

So I’m holding off on #Armasout until at
least the second half.

I suspect Chris Cummins was a pretty good coach. But having a shit front office ruined him. Same to some degree with Winter, who had MARINER watching his back, the guy who wanted his job.

Very reasonable position. The problem is that he has shown/said little to indicate that things will get better. Again for me it is not so much the results, those I can accept with the present situation being what it is, but the on field errors.

But he certainly could turn it around, but at this time it is hard to see how. You do want to give every manager a fair chance, but once you realize he is not the one, sooner you move on the better. It is obviously a very hard call to make when that moment is.

[trane]

Yeah, the concerns we all carry about the direction of the team are legitimate. I understand not wanting to gear decisions towards fan sentiment (one of the things Bez wanted to change when he came in). They shouldn’t fire a guy just because I get pissed on this board. However, refusing to acknowledge that there are obvious issues and acting as if we all don’t have eyes is gaslighting your fan base.

Armas calling Bono ‘top tier’ and the fuck you “Block out the noise” tweet prior to Alex bouncing the ball off a guys head into our own goal after completely fumbling an easy shot is probably a good example. You know the right way to deal with that? What they did afterward when they put him on a 50 minute podcast, instead of just saying fuck you he’s an all star.

Everyone sees the shitshow. They can’t act as if it’s not happening before our eyes. Don’t fire the guy because the fans say so, but recognize this is a football club that requires communication and fan engagement to be successful. Some questions being asked of management are legitimate and should be answered, instead of ignored.

Exactly.

[ag futbol]

What confuses me is, at the start of the season we had some semblance of pragmatic tactics and reasonably good results (or in the case of the CCL, outright over achieving).

Then, we move away from that approach. Dump the youth players for the old-tired options everyone was sick of Vanney playing (Endoh, DeLeon). Go gonzo for some press strategy that makes us look like a bunch of amateurs and doesn’t suit the roster. And to top it all off, play guys out of position and refuse to rotate your bumbling goal keeper.

What the heck happened? He started with something people wanted to see and then threw it in the trash. Now he’s stuck on a formula that doesn’t work but can’t change.

[Yohan]

What confuses me is, at the start of the season we had some semblance of pragmatic tactics and reasonably good results (or in the case of the CCL, outright over achieving).

Then, we move away from that approach. Dump the youth players for the old-tired options everyone was sick of Vanney playing (Endoh, DeLeon). Go gonzo for some press strategy that makes us look like a bunch of amateurs and doesn’t suit the roster. And to top it all off, play guys out of position and refuse to rotate your bumbling goal keeper.

What the heck happened? He started with something people wanted to see and then threw it in the trash. Now he’s stuck on a formula that doesn’t work but can’t change.

Because the perception is that the youths aren't giving consistency. The veteran players look to be more consistent.

When under pressure, managers go for the 'sure thing'. Hard to know what you will get from the kids, who will make a lot of mistakes.

Nelson seems lost, Okello drifting in and out of games, Shaff seems better as a sub, not a starter, Singh seems more consistent but has his mistakes. Ayo got a goal last game, but he's look off coming back from injury. Priso is the only kid who looks like he should be a starter.

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/one-s...in-2021-so-far

Playing without Alejandro Pozuelo, Chris Armas’ Toronto FC

have looked stagnant offensively. They’ve generated the seventh-fewest xG and the sixth-fewest shots per game in the league. It’s not just Pozuelo’s absence that’s limiting Toronto’s attack, as their lack of off-ball runs hurts their goal-scoring chances. Toronto have only put together 132.6 off-ball runs per game, which is the sixth-fewest in MLS. And that 132.6 number is down from 172.3 off-ball runs per game last year. Things need to start moving in Toronto.

TFC will get better with Pozuelo back on offence, but there's something off on the offence.

[Oldtimer]

When Vanney started out as coach it was not inspiring. Ugly losses, questionable lineup and substitution choices and inflexibility added to a lack of first team experience made many of us, myself included, think "here we go again."

What started to change my mind about him, and gave hope was his keen desire to learn, a certain humility about his own abilities, and as time developed a willingness to adjust his tactics in a pragmatic way. Ultimately he developed into a good coach with decent tactical ability because of these qualities and he led TFC to an historic treble.

I don't see those qualities in Armas. He does not seem a student or humble, rather its "don't question him, you wouldn't question Pep," as if you can, without irony, mention his name in the same breath as one of football's great managers. He shows that same arrogance in how he treats reporters.

Vanney quite openly said he studied Pep (and others). Armas thinks he already IS Pep. I'm sorry, wearing a coach shirt doesn't automatically make you a tactical genius. I don't have a lot of hope we're going to see a lot of improvement.

[Oldtimer]

Talking tactics, using a simple high press has to be the most overused strategy in MLS. It works if you are Liverpool and have the world class players to pull it off. It doesn't work so well with MLS journeymen who lack the same ability to stop a counter attack. I can't count how many times TFC under Vanney defeated simple high press teams with superior possession. Too many times.

It's niave to think that you don't need to take into account the types of players that are available to MLS teams when you think strategy. It isn't a video game where you manage a top world club in the game.

[OgtheDim]

I think Armas is not the way forward but if the team is going to give him time, lets see if the stand offishness is maintained once the team returns to Toronto.

Kloke spoke on the WTR podcast & one point he stated is none of the journalists have actually met Chris Armas or had a friendly chat with him, like journos covering the team at the Training ground would do.

Assumin the team comes back to Toronto later this month or in July, lets see if Armas is still as awkward in September.

[ag futbol]

[SIZE=2]
Because the perception is that the youths aren't giving consistency. The veteran players look to be more consistent.

When under pressure, managers go for the 'sure thing'. Hard to know what you will get from the kids, who will make a lot of mistakes.

Nelson seems lost, Okello drifting in and out of games, Shaff seems better as a sub, not a starter, Singh seems more consistent but has his mistakes. Ayo got a goal last game, but he's look off coming back from injury. Priso is the only kid who looks like he should be a starter.

TFC will get better with Pozuelo back on offence, but there's something off on the offence.

Of course we’re going to look better with Pozuelo in the lineup, he’s the league MVP. But that shouldn’t be the point. Is the coach actually organizing this team in a way that gets the most out of it or is he stubbornly clinging to what he knows with a high press? So far, I would argue it’s the latter.

I don’t want to get into the youth side of things too much because that was only meant to be one aspect of my previous post. Most youth players who have seen their role reduced, justifiably. However, when the lineup is hamstrung, we need to stop fielding someone like DeLeon at AM or Endoh out wide. This is nothing more than accepting mediocrity and trying not to lose rather than actually attempting to win. Playing youth in those situations makes a lot of sense.

[MightyDM]

One other thing that is nagging at me - we have a terrible record and the last several games he played DeLeon Delgado and Auro out of position. We couldn’t have really gotten worse results if OKello and Priso played their natural positions - easing pressure on these players playing out of position - and they would have improved. That was a stated aim at the beginning of the season. What happened?

EDIT: I see previous post makes similar point. We were writing at same time!

[ensco]

Kloke spoke on the WTR podcast & one point he stated is none of the journalists have actually met Chris Armas or had a friendly chat with him, like journos covering the team at the Training ground would do.

This is interesting, and highlights a different problem.

I don't give a rat's ass about whether the manager is spending time with journalists, it says nothing to me about whether Armas is any good, and frankly it just leads to co-opting the the journos. This says more to me about our journalist problem than our manager problem. Frankly, I think it's a checkmark in the plus category for Armas.

The team's communication problems do not belong to the manager, they belong 100% to Manning and Curtis. Top management calls all of this (and if they don’t it's because they are abdicating). They tell him what to do, or permit it.

Armas is naturally going to try to hide injuries etc, all managers do. The price for doing nothing but putting out Pravda style videos and hiding everything should be paid by others.

[Ultra & Proud]

One other thing that is nagging at me - we have a terrible record and the last several games he played DeLeon Delgado and Auro out of position. We couldn’t have really gotten worse results if OKello and Priso played their natural positions - easing pressure on these players playing out of position - and they would have improved. That was a stated aim at the beginning of the season. What happened?

I think we would have been 100% better if we used Okello & Priso (and Westberg) and played everyone else in their proper positions.

[jloome]

Talking tactics, using a simple high press has to be the most overused strategy in MLS. It works if you are Liverpool and have the world class players to pull it off. It doesn't work so well with MLS journeymen who lack the same ability to stop a counter attack. I can't count how many times TFC under Vanney defeated simple high press teams with superior possession. Too many times.

It's niave to think that you don't need to take into account the types of players that are available to MLS teams when you think strategy. It isn't a video game where you manage a top world club in the game.

This is a decent point. When we had our whole roster healthy and playing well together, we crushed Philly, despite them being basically the same team we sparred with (and later lost to) the rest of the way. That was possession football picking the press apart.

[jloome]

I think we would have been 100% better if we used Okello & Priso (and Westberg) and played everyone else in their proper positions.

Yeah, I'm not sure what his issue with Okello is, he's being excellent when in. He has a tendency to get too far ahead of the play, but his strengths far outweigh any naivete.

[ag futbol]

One other thing that is nagging at me - we have a terrible record and the last several games he played DeLeon Delgado and Auro out of position. We couldn’t have really gotten worse results if OKello and Priso played their natural positions - easing pressure on these players playing out of position - and they would have improved. That was a stated aim at the beginning of the season. What happened?

EDIT: I see previous post makes similar point. We were writing at same time!

Great minds think alike? Haha

Yeah, I'm not sure what his issue with Okello is, he's being excellent when in. He has a tendency to get too far ahead of the play, but his strengths far outweigh any naivete.

I thought when we played him as a support striker of sorts in a 4-4-2 he was great. Kept the ability to do all the playmaking but took away a chunk of his defensive responsibilities. He does seem to gas and fade out of games early but with 5 subs that should hardly be a stumbling block.

He was very close to breaking through on the score sheet (and unfairly had a legit goal called offside). For a young player like that who’s been on the fringes of the roster forever, a couple contributions to the score sheet can go miles for boosting his confidence. And then, you never know what’s possible.

[MightyDM]

The more I think about the youth point, raised by ag futbol a few posts ago, the more it is confounding. Okello and Priso need minutes to develop and they were next up in the depth chart, yet Armas (and the club) decided to move veterans around out of position instead of giving them a chance to develop. If anything, they would be more effective in a high press given youth etc. Really hard one to fathom and would have been really interesting to hear Armas talk about his thought process there.

EDIT: confounding because it doesn't appear to make sense from a line up perspective AND because of their vows of youth etc at the start of the season.

[OgtheDim]

EVERY team wants to play the Yutes.....until they need a win.

Only teams I know who persist with youth are Philly (although a lot of those guys are gone), NYRB & Dallas - mostly because their better people often are youth.