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    Default Chris Armas Evaluation Thread



    ***************

    OK, I said I wasn't going to do this

    & then watched that.



    I am not doing a "We needs him to be out" yet.

    But we got enough games to start doing some preliminary evaluations.


    IMHO, things related to an Armas evaluation at this point include (but are not limited to)

    1. Inertia & the inability to adjust - I know we had Vanney who is the best manager in MLS ever for being able to adjust mid game. But, geez Louise, it is possible to play something other then a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2. This also goes for how Armas' sees players on the pitch. It was obvious today after 45 minutes that Delgado wide right with DeLeon as an AM wasn't working - still, TFC persisted & this all went nowhere. There were no adjustments in the second half beyond "throw a player on and hope".

    2. The press - it worked against Leon because they let it go & didn't adjust. It kinda worked for 30 minutes against NYRB because they really are not all that good but then we got tired quickly & that game just went south. But we don't seem suited for taking advantage of it.

    3. Injuries have been bad for us. This is a system that relies upon 1 or 2 players to be creative quickly & we only have 3 central mids that can do that, 1 who is brand new & 2 who have been injured.

    4. Bono can not marshall the line. People are going to say "Its not been his fault" but he can't communicate worth beans & its showing. I think the choice of Vanney to NOT take Conway with him says a lot but then I also think Armas has an ideal for what a keeper should be.

    5. To that ideal player thing - Armas has views on what a player can do & has shown he is willing to let Seteldo & Morrow & Osorio adjust within the game. He is adamant about certain other things though.

    5. We are playing & practicing away from home & have done so without fans now for 14 months. That lack of input from fans DOES things because the manager & staff & players are in their own bubble with only the media to suggest things.

    6. Playing & practicing in heat sucks & when coupled with the CCL has left us tired & drained.





    *********************

    Other thoughts?

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    Leiweke is going to build a great ball team in Seattle.

    Deeply sadened by the fact that no proper search or opportunity was given for both management positions.

    Armas seems like he is in over is head, not sure if he can command the team or consistently have their ear, I feel like he may get tuned out shortly.

    Based on his words true form will take months to achieve.


    I was willing to be patient after the Leon win but I think it's been a downward trajectory since Seba and VV left

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    Bare minimum baseline for a competent coach:

    - Organize the team so it has a chance to defend properly.
    - Defend set pieces well.
    - use your set pieces to give your team a chance to score.

    I have to say this last game against RBNY showed no signs of the above. And that’s particularly concerning when this is the stuff you always should be focused on in the early days ESPECIALLY with a team that’s has injuries / is struggling for talent. Montreal, which has maybe half the talent we do, is playing more effective football.

    In the end, it’s one game. But if Armas can’t take care of stuff like this soon, I wouldn’t hesitate to send him packing.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 05-08-2021 at 02:58 PM.

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    I'll give my thoughts tomorrow when I am a little less cranky.

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    it's very apparent that armas' one style fits our team so badly.

    we have a glut of talented, ball playing midfielders, forwards and fullbacks.

    why we letting other teams dominate possession as a strategy is beyond me.

    also when we get the ball our attackers are so isolated and we have absolutely no width.

    i've not seen a tfc team create so little in a very, very long time.

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    I would say there really is no pressure felt from the outside world right now. Media coverage minus the return of John to the beat is pretty low key these days especially when you do not have to deal with it onsite on a daily basis. It really a few zoom calls here and there.

    On the subject of Jon Conway, him staying here likely made sense for him from a family standpoint with a wife whose job is here. Just a thought.



    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post


    ***************

    OK, I said I wasn't going to do this

    & then watched that.



    I am not doing a "We needs him to be out" yet.

    But we got enough games to start doing some preliminary evaluations.


    IMHO, things related to an Armas evaluation at this point include (but are not limited to)

    1. Inertia & the inability to adjust - I know we had Vanney who is the best manager in MLS ever for being able to adjust mid game. But, geez Louise, it is possible to play something other then a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2. This also goes for how Armas' sees players on the pitch. It was obvious today after 45 minutes that Delgado wide right with DeLeon as an AM wasn't working - still, TFC persisted & this all went nowhere. There were no adjustments in the second half beyond "throw a player on and hope".

    2. The press - it worked against Leon because they let it go & didn't adjust. It kinda worked for 30 minutes against NYRB because they really are not all that good but then we got tired quickly & that game just went south. But we don't seem suited for taking advantage of it.

    3. Injuries have been bad for us. This is a system that relies upon 1 or 2 players to be creative quickly & we only have 3 central mids that can do that, 1 who is brand new & 2 who have been injured.

    4. Bono can not marshall the line. People are going to say "Its not been his fault" but he can't communicate worth beans & its showing. I think the choice of Vanney to NOT take Conway with him says a lot but then I also think Armas has an ideal for what a keeper should be.

    5. To that ideal player thing - Armas has views on what a player can do & has shown he is willing to let Seteldo & Morrow & Osorio adjust within the game. He is adamant about certain other things though.

    5. We are playing & practicing away from home & have done so without fans now for 14 months. That lack of input from fans DOES things because the manager & staff & players are in their own bubble with only the media to suggest things.

    6. Playing & practicing in heat sucks & when coupled with the CCL has left us tired & drained.





    *********************

    Other thoughts?

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

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    Kind of funny and telling that the happiest people were Red Bulls fans and DC United fans when we hired Armas. The team who fired him and the team who he was previously linked to prior to joining TFC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    Kind of funny and telling that the happiest people were Red Bulls fans and DC United fans when we hired Armas. The team who fired him and the team who he was previously linked to prior to joining TFC.

    Which is a reminder that we had other options that turned us down & we then plugged for Armas, not quite stealing him from DCU but they were in serious discussions before Curtis came a calling. Not sure Losada makes them better off then Armas, to be honest, but Losada is at least consistent.

    I don't buy the "we always wanted Chris" thing nor the "they never made an offer to anybody else" guff.

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    It didn't look like this at first this season. But by now I'm concerned about the mentality / mood of the team (in addition to the tactical and other things that were described well above). It doesn't look like Armas, or Bradley, or anyone has control of this team.

    Today was a shit show as all have mentioned. I know Cruz Azul is a great team, and I never expected to get past them. But it was the way TFC lost to them; the way TFC didn't take advantage of numerous opportunities gifted by Cruz Azul; the way TFC gave Cruz cheap goals and let win easily w/o even breaking a sweat. That's what really bothers me. In addition to poor play and all the rest during the MLS games so far this season.

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    I will seriously question his judgement if he decides that Bono is his guy without giving Q a game or 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Which is a reminder that we had other options that turned us down & we then plugged for Armas, not quite stealing him from DCU but they were in serious discussions before Curtis came a calling. Not sure Losada makes them better off then Armas, to be honest, but Losada is at least consistent.

    I don't buy the "we always wanted Chris" thing nor the "they never made an offer to anybody else" guff.
    Agreed. They probably offered the job to Vieira and were turned down before turning to Armas. There was a lot of talk about around him early on.

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    I said it in the game thread. I think there is a problem in the room. Not necessarily Armas' fault, but Armas doesn’t have the stature to sort it out.

    When important guys don’t want to be on a team, it's a problem.

    Other than that, it's really too soon. We weren’t as good as our record last year, obviously (I didn’t watch a lot but I did watch that playoff game and we were very ordinary there). We are not as bad as we looked today. But we need the guys who don’t want to be here to be out.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    Agreed. They probably offered the job to Vieira and were turned down before turning to Armas. There was a lot of talk about around him early on.
    It's not probably. We know they did, and yes, he turned it down because he wanted more roster control than TFC were willing to give, which, to be fair to club, is probably correct. But now we have Armas.

    Another point – not only do we seem to have Plan A and nothing else, he goes out in the media and basically tells everybody exactly what we're going to do. Scouting us must be a cakewalk.

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    The reason Armas is likely here is because he didn’t believe in tearing the existing team down and rebuilding in his own image. But with every passing game the opinions that led Viera and maybe others to not join the club look more and more valid.

    The next stretch is critical. Our current record is 1 win, 2 draws, 4 losses. If we lose the next 4 (Poz or no Poz), I’d imagine that we’ll see the resolve of the front office tested re: Armas’ job security. If Poz returns and the team is still playing like ass, then I’d be perplexed with any outcome not involving Armas fired.

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    This statement that “we offered the job to Vieira”, stayed as fact, I don’t even know where to begin. It is completely nuts, an internet fabrication.

    For starters , he wouldn’t have been interested under any circumstances. We also couldn’t afford him.

    The people who say this literally have know idea how/why he wound up at NYCFC, what his ambition is, etc. All of which he has publicly stated.

    Do the people who sell this have any idea what his net worth is?
    Last edited by ensco; 05-08-2021 at 08:38 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokecell View Post
    Tuca is such an ass though

    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    he is not going anywhere.his bosses got contract ext,why i dont know,they lost like7 of there last 10 mls games.with a aging oft injured roster

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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie View Post
    he is not going anywhere.his bosses got contract ext,why i dont know,they lost like7 of there last 10 mls games.with a aging oft injured roster
    With no home games for 14 months they have had no accountability, so they patted each others backs and extended their contracts. The sentiment from the game thread wasn't the anger/venting from a one sided loss as you would normally see. It was more a wtf is this? TFC looked like they didn't belong on the same pitch, and NYRB are at best a below average MLS team! Someone said it earlier, this looked like a Paul Mariner game.

    Vanney won today, Robin Fraser won today, Armas got completely exposed.

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    Not ready to throw him under the bus yet, this is a team transitioning between styles, but here's some things so far:

    Hopeful signs: none. At this point under Vanney's reign the team wasn't doing so well either, but Vanney at least showed a desire to learn. There is no corresponding character trait evident with Armas

    Problems:

    Inflexibility: Armas is wedded to a couple of formations, shows no desire to react to the situation.

    Structure: the team fails to consistently hold their shape, some players are in the wrong positions for the shape, the strengths and weaknesses of the players are not taken into account in what formation to use.

    Strategy: There's a lack of practiced game plays that they can execute in the games. What are they doing in practice? Preki style running laps? Also there's no discernable game plan apart from a one-dimensional keep on pressing and hope we score.

    Injuries: Injuries are an excuse for not doing well. However nobody seems to be asking why TFC have so many injuries under Armas? Is it just bad luck? Or is there something wrong with his training regimen (see strategy above)?

    Player attitude: in 2016-2017 we had players wanting to join TFC because they had belief in the project. Now it looks like some players are checking out. There seems to be a return to the "sad sack TFC" feeling. There doesn't seem to be harmony between the players. What's wrong in the locker room? Is Armas loosing the room?

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    My concern about Armas, from the beginning, has been that his purported style is a very poor match for our roster.

    Our core strength is a highly competent midfiled well suited to a possession game but less so to a press - Marky, Oso, MB and Poz. Then our most critical players are Jozy (big question marks at the moment), Omar and Mavinga. Several of those players can press, but it isnt the first thing you would think for them to contribute to a team. And how do they line up, and where is the pace? in a 4-2-3-1 its Lawrence - Mavinga - Omar - Richie / Auro then Bradley Marky then Soteldo Poz Oso Jozy / Ayo. I like that line up, alot, but it also doesnt scream press.

    Thats the first issue - wrong tactics for the group.

    Second is that on the field the players seem to have no idea what they are doing. Watch the runs of players in a pressing team like Leeds when possession is turned over and they are extremely purposeful and direct - they have been trained. In all of our games, except Leon, players are often slow on the ball because they don't seem to know where and to whom to move the ball - which you must if you are playing for a quick transition; it has to be instinctive.

    Third, set pieces.

    Yes, it's early, but these three things worry me deeply because they are fundamental. And because we were so far from winning any of these games, really.

    I'm not as worried about "losing the room," as even though it looks like something is off, there are other signs = like the Jozy like figure throwing the ball onto the field to delay things in Club Leon that suggest camraderie, a desire to win, and a sense of humour
    Last edited by MightyDM; 05-09-2021 at 09:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    My concern about Armas, from the beginning, has been that his purported style is a very poor match for our roster.
    Agreed. And to take this one step further, it doesn’t make any sense to majorly overhaul the roster for Armas. That’s a complete waste of resources.

    We have enough players right now to be competitive. Maybe without a few final tweaks we won’t be MLS cup contenders, but we shouldn’t be anything near what we saw on the weekend.

    I want to see some sign in the next few games of Armas tweaking the tactics for the players he ACTUALLY HAS and not zealously clinging to a preferred system.

    Overall, I have a hard time believing the board of MLSE will be pleased investing $10 million dollars plus on Pozuelo and now Solteldo, only to be told the coach, who we pay peanuts in comparison and has no track record of being anything particularly special, really doesn’t have the players he needs.

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    Let's see what it looks like with Poz in there, and once we get the lineup settled.

    No team in MLS can survive losing the league MVP.

    I think maybe it's be worth waiting a few games before opining on Armas' tactics/flexibility etc. It really will take 5-6 more games at least to know.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Let's see what it looks like with Poz in there, and once we get the lineup settled.

    No team in MLS can survive losing the league MVP.

    I think maybe it's be worth waiting a few games before opining on Armas' tactics/flexibility etc. It really will take 5-6 more games at least to know.
    No MLS team should look like what we saw on the weekend, stars or not.

    Of course we would look better with the league MVP on the field but if you can’t do the basics without the league MVP, sort of suggests a few flaws....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Let's see what it looks like with Poz in there, and once we get the lineup settled.

    No team in MLS can survive losing the league MVP.

    I think maybe it's be worth waiting a few games before opining on Armas' tactics/flexibility etc. It really will take 5-6 more games at least to know.
    It's not just his lack of flexibility, which was fully evident when we we were still half-field pressing at halftime.

    It's also his roster and position choices. Osorio and Delgado wide? Jayden Nelson starting over Shaffelburg and Okello despite CLEARLY not being ready for MLS. I mean, he doesn't look remotely ready. He looked lost.

    Bono hasn't looked starting material, really. He has a couple of decent reaction saves but has been beaten short side twice due to bad positioning; on the upside, he seems to be talking to his defence as of this last game, albeit a little too little and late.

    It's difficult to watch this team now. They're used to having supporting movement drilled ito them; even when we were ineffective, we still maintained possession and looked in with a shout. It's not for nothing that Vanney's Galaxy, despite having given up as many goals as they've scored -- two per game -- have three wins in four games. They hold onto the ball and exhibit a modicum of patience and organization.

    Back in the bad old days, I was friends with a TFC staffer from a prior role he'd had before the organization. I was lamenting the then-manager's lack of drilling prescribed movement, which was obvious from how often they were out of supporting positions. He told me there are some coaches who nitpick responsibilities off the ball and some who believe players are capable of handing that on their own.

    We had one of the latter, the latest in a string TFC began their life as a club with, coaches who thought that by the time a player was at TFC level, things like movement off the ball and formation were secondary concerns.

    But this isn't the Calcio or the flippin' Premiership. And the players who move with machine-like precision into the right spaces in those leagues do so because of how well drilled they were at lower levels.

    By contrast, MLS players have traditionally come from the NA college and local club system, where coaching quality and standards lagged behind for decades, particularly tactically. It hasn't been until the implementation of more rigorous standards in the last five or six years, with better players coming in who are more fiercely competitive and humble about how hard it is to get good, that we've seen that change.

    What we saw yesterday was "let them play" football, which is shit. If, like at Barnsley, you have two or three highly skilled players, you can press all the time and steal a bunch of wins against the run of quality. But you won't win a table.

    Bayern and Liverpool and Leeds and Leipzig can all press because they have good enough players to do so; to cover each other's positions, to move constantly, to read the game connstantly.

    WE DON'T. We never have. The SOLE success from a manager in the history of this club has been during Vanney's tenure, and he practised a disciplined, possession-based system.

    I'm not so contemptuous of the press to say we shouldn't strategically employ it. But it's one part of what has to be wider tactical acumen. And we've somehow managed to go from among the most competent in the league at possession and build to running around like chickens with their heads cut off, in a matter of seven games.

    One game off the Supporter's Shield. That's where we were.

    I'll wait five or six games because I have no choice; these guys don't exactly reek of the humility it takes to fix a problem quickly, so we're all going to have to wait it out a while.

    But there's little reason based on past evidence to expect a change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    ...it doesn’t make any sense to majorly overhaul the roster for Armas. That’s a complete waste of resources.
    This, big time!

    The only way the roster makes sense to be overhauled was if they would have been hiring a really big name coach. I mean clearly bigger than Vanney!
    And let's be honest, Armas is clearly smaller name than Vanney even in the MLS, and he's a nobody outside US/Canada.

    Now it's not just logical that if a not so big name coach is hired in place of a former coach, who was a lot more accomplished, and there is a good enough group of players already in place, this new guy should mould his tactics at the start to the strengths of this existing group?

    Then he should slowly add some of his preferred tactics/vision in small doses, balanced, over a longer period of time, this way easing a smooth transition to a bit changed style of play. But in no way to a totally different style of play, in case if the former style of play was successful for the team!

    What Armas is trying to do now I feel is like fitting square pegs in round holes, then if he cannot put them in with his bare hands, he takes a hammer, and tries to hammer 'em until those pegs start cracking.
    Last edited by PizzaEatingYeti; 05-09-2021 at 02:05 PM.

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    i can live with the young kids making mistakes,but the vets like delgado the give away machine,bradley works hard but his touch in the final 3rd is gone,deleon is a 20 min player at best,so im not going blame the kids that are making 100k,when you got 5mil players sitting out because he had a bad taco,and 800k players like oso always injured.

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    I don’t disagree that we have been horrible every which way to Sunday in all three league games.

    I have been going through this with the Raps. They were one of the top five teams in the NBA in March 2020, now they are bottom seven. Total freefall, almost the same players.

    I think the pandemic is making it impossible for Canadian teams in basketball and soccer, this is why I was so amazed that we beat Leon (and we looked great in those games, and Armas earned points for that, like it or not). I see that Vancouver and Montreal have each won a game, yeah, doesn’t change my view. None will be playoff teams in 2021 unless we get home by halfway mark.

    Armas also committed to CCL, which I agree with, and which we all knew would cost us in the league.

    I don't know how to separate the pandemic and being rootless from questions around (i) natural lag time for any new coach to make an impact, (ii) injuries which hurt a new coaches ability to do anything, (iii) Not having Pozo in particular causing us to look horrible in final third

    I am pretty sure we are going to be 2-8 or similar in early June. We are all agreed on that. I am less sure about what it means.
    Last edited by ensco; 05-09-2021 at 12:39 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaEatingYeti View Post
    This, big time!

    The only way the roster makes sense to be overhauled was if they would have been hiring a really big name coach. I mean clearly bigger than Vanney!
    And let's be honest, Armas is clearly smaller name than Vanney even in the MLS, and he's a nobody outside US/Canada.

    Now it's not just logical that if a not so big name coach is hired in place of a former coach, who was a lot more accomplished, and there is a good enough group of players already in place, this new guy should mould his tactics at the start to the strengths of this existing group?

    Then he should slowly add some of his preferred tactics/vision in small doses, balanced, over a longer period of time, this way easing a smooth transition to a bit changed style of play. But in no way to a totally different style of play, in case of the former style of play was successful for the team!

    What Armas is trying to do now I feel is like fitting square pegs in round holes, then if he cannot put them in with his bare hands, he takes a hammer, and tries to hammer 'em until those pegs start cracking.
    Exactly!

    Not that Vanney was perfect but for the last two years, it was pretty much acknowledged he didn’t play his 100% preferred system because the roster didn’t allow for it (after years as coach, he was still pragmatic enough to make a reasonable choice).

    Armas would be wise to behave similarly.

 

 

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