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  1. #841
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    Lawrence was really fun to watch when he was with the Red Bulls. Not sure a LB would be worth the cap hit and I believe he would have to go through allocation aswell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil744 View Post
    Report: Could Kemar Lawrence be returning to MLS? 

    : http://soc.cr/yCPq30rx0DU

    This is the left back we need if morrow does not sign. And if we don't sign morrow why not develop Shaffelburg into LB we did it with Layrea...
    Problem with Shaffelburg is that 1) he hasn't shown that he's got the footy IQ, relying solely on his athleticism 2)and you need footy IQ to learn a new position, especially defending as a LB. As well as know when to overlap.

    "
    Hell is always loose here. It can't break loose again
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    -Fort York Redcoat, on the state of TFC

  3. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    I was gonna say, I guess you're new here, but ensco beat me to it.

    And there were others, like JDG.
    Was JDG polarizing? I feel like once he hit the field there was really nothing to debate.

    Real shame, because at his best in his career he was a good player. But the version we got IMO was the horse en route to the glue factory. We also somehow decided that based on one watershed performance he was an attacking mid despite having a reputation in la liga for being defensively industrious and otherwise shooting over the net.

  4. #844
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    ^Agree. JDG was not polarizing.

    After Dero, I'd say Gilberto was next. At least on a per game played basis.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Exactly. A couple of folks on here like to run with stories and build them up.

    Just on background: I was concerned about Jozy's renewal from the start. I think TFC got themselves backed into a corner, didn't prepare for Seba's or Jozy's extension or departure despite PLENTY of warning, and let Vazquez leave less than a year after his contract extension. Then they were scrambling after Seba & Vazquez left, with complaints from folks that pay much more for season's tickets than I do. TFC put themselves in a very bad position to negotiate with Jozy's agent.

    So Jozy is now is still ours, and the club has to figure out how to deal with that. During the first pandemic lockdown, I actually remember lots of posts of Jozy working out, often with Sloane Stephens. Some folks on here suggesting he was somehow chubby or out-of-shape afterwards. I don't remember that. I remember him looking ripped. But perhaps he had too much muscle mass again, as was suggested occasionally in previous years. For some athletes, it's hard to get the right kind of training, especially "game shape," w/o real on-field training, real games, direct work with pro trainers etc. I've heard from multiple elite athletes in multiple sports, that despite best efforts with individual work-outs during the pandemic, they did not come out in the right shape for competition.

    Add to the fact that Jozy has repeatedly played through injuries, and scored some great goals in that condition. Plus he was sometimes left in games too long when he didn't look 100%, as happened to multiple other TFC players as well. I put that down to a lack of depth and flexibility on the part of management and coaching. Plus all the other problems of 2020, and the impacts that had on many athletes.

    I'm concerned about Jozy as well. I believe he's a risky DP in a salary-capped league with limited DP spots, and likely more limited finances in the post-Leiweke and pandemic eras. That has little to do with laziness, or with blaming only Jozy for being injury-prone. In terms of the other issues brought up, they also concern me, but there are definitely two sides to all those things. I think we've heard enough to know that not everything was sunshine and roses at TFC for the last few years. Staying silent is not always the best way to a solution. Just to mention one topic: I feel there were too many injuries throughout the squad, and too many games where TFC looked far more gassed than the competition, for the last 1/4 of the games or more.
    Auzzy, I think this is well said.

    Look for everyone else, I was really disappointed in Jozy’s performance last year... it doesn’t take a mathematician to figure out it was a bad year for Jozy on a cost per goal or even cost per game.. The team really needed a healthy DP striker. We can say he was injured, distracted or perhaps he is to old and injured but to speculate that he doesn’t care or lazy, I personally think is wrong.

    We can fairly say, perhaps its time to buy him out and whether you agree or not, it is a justifiable argument for Porto and others make. I just find it hard to believe that he doesn’t give a f—k. I think a bigger issue is seeing the whole team healthier next year.... We lost too many games to injuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^Agree. JDG was not polarizing.

    After Dero, I'd say Gilberto was next. At least on a per game played basis.
    Didn’t play here long enough, but I would say the “bloody big deal”... hated Judas at West Ham, hated him here. He only came to try to get back in the England squad. Which is fair enough, but the way he did it, makes calling him a mercenary too nice...LOL

  7. #847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    I think a bigger issue is seeing the whole team healthier next year.... We lost too many games to injuries.
    Yes, we are the team known to be unable to avoid hamstring injuries. Something somewhere has been seriously wrong, in comparison to the rest of the league. It was either in the training regimes or the rest regimes. Here's hoping that Armas can fix that.

  8. #848
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamp Berg View Post
    Rumour from KJ is Morrow is returning.
    Both would be better, Morrow can't be a 34 game starter anymore. I would rather get Gallacher as a U-22 than Lawrence, but I would rather start Lawrence with Morrow as a backup than Morrow as a starter wit anyone backing him up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Yes, we are the team known to be unable to avoid hamstring injuries. Something somewhere has been seriously wrong, in comparison to the rest of the league. It was either in the training regimes or the rest regimes. Here's hoping that Armas can fix that.
    Interesting comment. If under Armas the injury situation improves does that then suggest that Vanney's training methods were to blame? And if so does that change how people view Vanney as a coach?
    Last edited by NK Toronto; 02-16-2021 at 12:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I always thought DeRo was loved because he is Canadian. I vaguely remember reading about him having a trial with Celtic but never knew he didn't ask the club if he could go. I was much more of a casual fan at that point. I was much more of a hockey fan then. The Sabres decided I should probably find someone else to be invested in.

  12. #852
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    Just to jump in on the Jozy discussion ...

    I love him too, for everything he is and everything he's done, but at this point I really feel he should retire. It would be the noble thing to do.

  13. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK Toronto View Post
    Interesting comment. If under Armas the injury situation improves does that then suggest that Vanney's training methods were to blame? And if so does that change how people view Vanney as a coach?
    Might there also be other changes, e.g. fitness coach etc? And other players may be fitter, although it looks like we won't have too many changes.

    If things get better, could have been Vanney's training methods, or might possibly be due to him overplaying core players.

    On the flip side, trusting some young or fringe players with a bit more playing time in portions of the season where their performance might not be crucial, so that they're more ready to replace core players when they need a break & before the core gets injured -- if Armas can do more of that, it might help avoid injuries. Of course it also depends on upper management getting him the best "fringe" players possible, as well as challenging the young players in training so they're ready for the big time.

  14. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeForbes View Post
    I always thought DeRo was loved because he is Canadian. I vaguely remember reading about him having a trial with Celtic but never knew he didn't ask the club if he could go. I was much more of a casual fan at that point. I was much more of a hockey fan then. The Sabres decided I should probably find someone else to be invested in.
    There were massive battles on this board about DeRo and a bunch of related issues at the time. Everybody loved DeRo, at least at some point; that made things even more heated. The Celtic trial was the high- (low-) point, but there a bunch of similar topics. Do you remember DeRo's on-field cheque signing? Some long-standing board members quit; others were banned around that time, due to the passionate & endless discussions. I would say the general mood was MUCH crankier back then anyway, for obvious reasons. (Team still perma-sucked; hadn't won much yet, or even made the playoffs I guess.) Our recent Altidore chats are a tempest in a teapot in comparison. And that's a good thing generally.
    Last edited by Auzzy; 02-16-2021 at 03:29 AM.

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    Interesting that Borré is mentioned as being a Jozy replacement.

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    two things can be true:

    1) yes, Jozy is a a TFC legend and will always be hero worshipped for what he did in his time here.

    2) because of MLS dp rules, he' currently a major hindrance on the club's ability to have success, and will be for the 2nd year running if he stays around. Really just frustrated with the club more than anything for giving such an injury prone player such a long extension.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bought with blo View Post
    Both would be better, Morrow can't be a 34 game starter anymore. I would rather get Gallacher as a U-22 than Lawrence, but I would rather start Lawrence with Morrow as a backup than Morrow as a starter wit anyone backing him up.
    I agree but it sounds like management is going with Morrow and the draft pick on the left side.

  18. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Interesting that Borré is mentioned as being a Jozy replacement.
    One step forward two steps back. Unless they are certain Ayo is really ready - he is gifted, no question, but looked like he has a long way to go to make the kinds of runs Jody can, for example

  19. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    two things can be true:

    1) yes, Jozy is a a TFC legend and will always be hero worshipped for what he did in his time here.

    2) because of MLS dp rules, he' currently a major hindrance on the club's ability to have success, and will be for the 2nd year running if he stays around. Really just frustrated with the club more than anything for giving such an injury prone player such a long extension.
    I don't agree, but this is a fair comment and respectful.

  20. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by leedsandTFC View Post
    two things can be true:

    1) yes, Jozy is a a TFC legend and will always be hero worshipped for what he did in his time here.

    2) because of MLS dp rules, he' currently a major hindrance on the club's ability to have success, and will be for the 2nd year running if he stays around. Really just frustrated with the club more than anything for giving such an injury prone player such a long extension.
    Completely agree. Nothing personal against Jozy, but the FO giving $6.5M per year to a player they knew couldn’t stay on the pitch was a mistake.

    I know DPs count the same under the cap but MLSE does have a limited budget. Having an extra couple million to offer to the next Giovinco-type player would go a long way to convince them to make the jump.

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    This question isn’t being framed in a way that leads to insight into what TFC might be thinking. It's way more complicated than just “get rid of Jozy”.

    Almost everyone agrees that, if there were a way to get off Jozy's final deal with honour, we would do that.

    The question is, if you have to eat, say, $4M of his last year to do that, and you could “rent” a striker for 2M instead, would you do that?

    Or, if you can get this Borre guy on a free for 4x4M, would it still be worth it if you have add the $4M needed to deal with Jozy as a kind of cost in lieu of the transfer fee? (table whatever you think of the likelihood of this scenario being real)

    $4M or whatever is a HUGE number in the context of the options. If you think Jozy has the potential to score 15 goals this year, you probably just sit with what you have, play him, sort it out for less next year. If you don't, you eat the salary and move him wherever he would like to go, if you can.
    Last edited by ensco; 02-16-2021 at 12:24 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    $4M or whatever is a HUGE number in the context of the options. If you think Jozy has the potential to score 15 goals this year, you probably just sit with what you have, play him, sort it out for less next year. If you don't, you eat the salary and move him wherever he would like to go, if you can.
    He only managed 15 goals once in his TFC career (2017). That was his healthiest season as well. I would say it's not probable for him to get 15 goals again. Technically he is capable of it but if we forget about the 15 goal "line", I question whether him managing to start 15 matches would be a safe bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    This question isn’t being framed in a way that leads to insight into what TFC might be thinking. It's way more complicated than just “get rid of Jozy”.

    Almost everyone agrees that, if there were a way to get off Jozy's final deal with honour, we would do that.

    The question is, if you have to eat, say, $4M of his last year to do that, and you could “rent” a striker for 2M instead, would you do that?

    Or, if you can get this Borre guy on a free for 4x4M, would it still be worth it if you have add the $4M needed to deal with Jozy as a kind of cost in lieu of the transfer fee? (table whatever you think of the likelihood of this scenario being real)

    $4M or whatever is a HUGE number in the context of the options. If you think Jozy has the potential to score 15 goals this year, you probably just sit with what you have, play him, sort it out for less next year. If you don't, you eat the salary and move him wherever he would like to go, if you can.
    This is about right. A healthy Jozy is the easiest and least complicated option. Because the next person, whoever it is, is an “if”.

  24. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    This is about right. A healthy Jozy is the easiest and least complicated option. Because the next person, whoever it is, is an “if”.
    At this point, with everything we've seen over the years, can anyone say Jozy is anything other than an "if"?

    Jozy playing 24 matches and scoring 15 goals like he did in 2017 seems to me to be impossible at this point. Very, very improbable.

  25. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    This question isn’t being framed in a way that leads to insight into what TFC might be thinking. It's way more complicated than just “get rid of Jozy”.

    Almost everyone agrees that, if there were a way to get off Jozy's final deal with honour, we would do that.

    The question is, if you have to eat, say, $4M of his last year to do that, and you could “rent” a striker for 2M instead, would you do that?

    Or, if you can get this Borre guy on a free for 4x4M, would it still be worth it if you have add the $4M needed to deal with Jozy as a kind of cost in lieu of the transfer fee? (table whatever you think of the likelihood of this scenario being real)

    $4M or whatever is a HUGE number in the context of the options. If you think Jozy has the potential to score 15 goals this year, you probably just sit with what you have, play him, sort it out for less next year. If you don't, you eat the salary and move him wherever he would like to go, if you can.
    I think this is an excellent way to frame the situation from a risk perspective.

    A healthy Jozy is one of the best strikers in the league. Even if he doesn’t put up 15 goals, he’s likely to put up at least 10 and contribute to a good handful. Few strikers in this league have his level of intelligence in buildup play as well. Actively keeping Jozy can deliver the highest yield but is the riskier proposition because of his fitness.

    The risk averse option is you eat salary and do the rent-a-DP thing a la Piatti in the hopes that you get a player who’s reliably fit but with a way lower ceiling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    I think this is an excellent way to frame the situation from a risk perspective.

    A healthy Jozy is one of the best strikers in the league. Even if he doesn’t put up 15 goals, he’s likely to put up at least 10 and contribute to a good handful. Few strikers in this league have his level of intelligence in buildup play as well. Actively keeping Jozy can deliver the highest yield but is the riskier proposition because of his fitness.

    The risk averse option is you eat salary and do the rent-a-DP thing a la Piatti in the hopes that you get a player who’s reliably fit but with a way lower ceiling.
    I dont even know if we can say this anymore, especially as it will probably be another COVID impacted season with lots of travel, at least for first half.

    We're at the point where it's hard to see Jozy being fit for long enough to gain the match sharpness needed for him to be one of the best in the league.

  27. #867
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    Ravel Morison reminds me of the English player we had who was briefly outstanding before teams learned how to defend him - John Bostock: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56085319

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    I think this is an excellent way to frame the situation from a risk perspective.

    A healthy Jozy is one of the best strikers in the league. Even if he doesn’t put up 15 goals, he’s likely to put up at least 10 and contribute to a good handful. Few strikers in this league have his level of intelligence in buildup play as well. Actively keeping Jozy can deliver the highest yield but is the riskier proposition because of his fitness.

    The risk averse option is you eat salary and do the rent-a-DP thing a la Piatti in the hopes that you get a player who’s reliably fit but with a way lower ceiling.
    That, I can agree with...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    At this point, with everything we've seen over the years, can anyone say Jozy is anything other than an "if"?

    Jozy playing 24 matches and scoring 15 goals like he did in 2017 seems to me to be impossible at this point. Very, very improbable.
    For the record, exactly what we have seen over the years in terms of goals scored is this
    2015-13
    2016-15
    2017-17
    2018-7
    2019-12
    2020-2
    including playoff.

    So what, if I may ask, is it we've supposed to have seen over the years in your opinion

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    Between line reading pure spec

    Jozy would prefer to be somewhere else & team tried to transfer him during Euro window but couldn't get it done

    Now looking at options but understanding Jozy will be around in the meantime & trying to work that out


    Questions:

    a) Will Jozy be professional in camp & afterwards if no buyer is forthcoming yet? Likely (I know the one story but there were no legs to that beyond in here)

    b) Will team find a buyer? We won't know until he's gone

    In the meantime, would be nice to have something else to talk about (although I'm not sold on this being a big distraction internally yet)

 

 

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