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  1. #331
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    ^Finesse is exactly what we need in the elite talent acquisition game , but finesse is not what this group has shown, and it is definitely not what got us Pozo.

    We can’t say for sure from the outside, this story is when I realized that there were zero journos left on the TFC beat... but it sure looked to me like Pozo was the all time hamfisted amateur hour acquisition, and it cost Manning’s bosses $2M to fix it.
    Last edited by ensco; 12-27-2020 at 05:28 PM.
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  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    I think it’s either Vieira or someone completely out of left field. First week of Jan I’d peg for the announcement.

    Having looked more deeply at Vieira’s track record I’m way less high on him than I was at first.
    He won't last 18 months.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Vanney still not announced in LA BTW.


    Somebody really needs to stop Curtis & Manning from saying "We are moving on this quickly" - gets them into trouble. It was never going to be before Christmas and always likely in the first 2 weeks of January. If one isn't in place by the 15th, then we got issues.
    They will give a press conference on Jan 5 and say "two weeks"

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^Finesse is exactly what we need in the elite talent acquisition game , but finesse is not what this group has shown, and it is definitely not what got us Pozo.

    We can’t say for sure from the outside, this story is when I realized that there were zero journos left on the TFC beat... but it sure looked to me like Pozo was the all time hamfisted amateur hour acquisition, and it cost Manning’s bosses $2M to fix it.
    I want to see this play out. But it’s jump or be pushed time. Either we identify a good coach and the right players in this window (maybe the summer for some signings) or I’m ready to send Manning and Curtis packing.

    My gut feeling is this team too shiny an asset for these guys to manage. Their level is FC Dallas, Phily or some other team that dumpster dives for deals because it’s their only option to be competitive.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 12-28-2020 at 06:42 AM.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Get ready to be severely disappointed. Mark Cuban has said: "Hiring a coach is the hardest job in professional sports. Every candidate is well spoken, has seen the tape, comes in, and is persuasive on what you did wrong and how they will fix it. It's the hardest process in sports to wade though."

    Nothing has shown me that Manning and Curtis have any kind of edge in this. Since VV came (four long years ago!), vdW and Pozuelo are the only guys Manning has gone out and had to compete for, and he bungled both of those moves. He also mishandled Seba and Jozy contract renewal conversations. Nobody is going to see this as about anything other than money, and a "name" is not coming, unless they get paid. MLSE wouldn't spend up for Vanney, and they are sure as hell not going to do it for some name that doesn't really put butts in seats. (We are going to miss Vanney more than we realize, when this has played out...)

    It’s going to be some MLS assistant. Or Jason Kreis.

    One thing for sure: at the press conference, we are 100% guaranteed to get heartfelt speeches about all the work and thinking that went into this hire. We lead the league in these junior varsity speeches since the vdW meltdown. As if this "200 pages stuff" is some kind of edge when it comes to spotting and signing talent.
    This part (highlighted) is undoubtedly true, and seems to be similar to the Vanney departure - Manning and Curtis appear to let events happen rather than driving them, at least the big decisions like Seba and then there was no choice about Jozy. The only thing they weren't reactive about was Michael Bradleys contract and he deserves equal credit for that. I truly hope they prove me wrong, and I would be happy with a young up and coming coach (as long as he can develop players like Priso) if they have truly recruited him - but given how surprised they seemed to be by Vanney's departure, (reactive again) I am not sure they really have properly scouted anyone.

  6. #336
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    If you are a board that oversees a top level management position that has as one of its major jobs the ability to attract and keep a major creative talent position, you better want that top level management person ready with a recruitment plan when the creative holding that talent position decides to leave.

    Cause, that's what coaches are - creative talent. And anybody who manages creatives knows you better be ready for when & if they leave cause they all do eventually.

    Not sure how much discussion from ownership happens with Manning when these things occur but I suspect Larry T has had a meeting with Manning & Curtis to be apprised of what the plan is to find the next person to fill this creative role, and likely was asking back in the summer if there was a plan for this situation - given what people have said about his role in MLSE, Larry T is likely the board member with the job of relaying information back & forth.

    So, there will be a plan, even if it had to be cobbled together from thoughts & musings. Will it be a good one and one that can face the reality of uncertainty given Covid 19? We will find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I want to see this play out. But it’s jump or be pushed time. Either we identify a good coach and the right players in this window (maybe the summer for some signings) or I’m ready to send Manning and Curtis packing.

    My gut feeling is this team too shiny an asset for these guys too manage. Their level is FC Dallas, Phily or some other team that dumpster dives for deals because it’s their only option to be competitive.
    The alternative is that the hiring of Manning and Curtis indicates the opposite. Specifically, that MLSE’s hirings indicate a vision of this club that is no longer shiny and more NYRB than LA Galaxy.

    A lot of posts on this forum have speculated that the hires indicated a new cost-effective approach. They may be right. The club has always spent relatively well compared to peers, but there’s a marked difference between the TFC of 2010 and 2014 even. Win at all costs is no longer the strategy. Win cost effectively is. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s why Jozy got re-signed. It’s cheaper to keep an asset than spend on an equivalent new one. We all forget, but Seba was lowballed into leaving for Saudi and blasted the club for not wanting to “focus on winning”. VdW said the same thing when he left.

    Relatedly, the throwing out of names like Blanc and Vieira was probably PR related action following fan disgust with the Olsen rumours. I wouldn’t be surprised if Olsen was the one who orchestrated that leak and TFC were the ones to leak Blanc and Vieira in reaction. Curtis and Manning literally said they wouldn’t tip their hat, but then a couple weeks later we hear Blanc and Vieira are Curtis’s ideal picks? That last part only gets reported if Curtis or someone close to Curtis leaks that info. It’s all PR spin because this club cares more about looking top class than being top class now. They know that the only people picking up on the “two weeks” and “off season like no other” bullshit are the people on this forum. And let’s be honest we’re not going anywhere.
    Last edited by portu; 12-27-2020 at 08:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    This part (highlighted) is undoubtedly true, and seems to be similar to the Vanney departure - Manning and Curtis appear to let events happen rather than driving them, at least the big decisions like Seba and then there was no choice about Jozy. The only thing they weren't reactive about was Michael Bradleys contract and he deserves equal credit for that. I truly hope they prove me wrong, and I would be happy with a young up and coming coach (as long as he can develop players like Priso) if they have truly recruited him - but given how surprised they seemed to be by Vanney's departure, (reactive again) I am not sure they really have properly scouted anyone.
    What about Richie? They deserve a lot of credit for that one.

  9. #339
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    Why is so much time spent dissecting the inner workings of MLSE upper management and not discussing anything tangible or football related?

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    The alternative is that the hiring of Manning and Curtis indicates the opposite. Specifically, that MLSE’s hirings indicate a vision of this club that is no longer shiny and more NYRB than LA Galaxy.

    A lot of posts on this forum have speculated that the hires indicated a new cost-effective approach. They may be right. The club has always spent relatively well compared to peers, but there’s a marked difference between the TFC of 2010 and 2014 even. Win at all costs is no longer the strategy. Win cost effectively is. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s why Jozy got re-signed. It’s cheaper to keep an asset than spend on an equivalent new one. We all forget, but Seba was lowballed into leaving for Saudi and blasted the club for not wanting to “focus on winning”. VdW said the same thing when he left.
    Seba came to TFC and was the highest paid Italian player in the world at the time. It shouldn’t of surprised people when Seba left for money. I can’t blame him either. I’m all for players getting paid.... heck, it’s why we’ll be able to take any talent we want from CPL. Money talks.

    Jozy resigned Because the $$ made sense for him.

    VDV left and we went to mls cup final. I wouldn’t pay much attention to what he says. He vastly under delivered here and hasn’t been able to get a job since.

  11. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    If you are a board that oversees a top level management position that has as one of its major jobs the ability to attract and keep a major creative talent position, you better want that top level management person ready with a recruitment plan when the creative holding that talent position decides to leave.

    Cause, that's what coaches are - creative talent. And anybody who manages creatives knows you better be ready for when & if they leave cause they all do eventually.

    Not sure how much discussion from ownership happens with Manning when these things occur but I suspect Larry T has had a meeting with Manning & Curtis to be apprised of what the plan is to find the next person to fill this creative role, and likely was asking back in the summer if there was a plan for this situation - given what people have said about his role in MLSE, Larry T is likely the board member with the job of relaying information back & forth.

    So, there will be a plan, even if it had to be cobbled together from thoughts & musings. Will it be a good one and one that can face the reality of uncertainty given Covid 19? We will find out.
    Likely right. But their comments when Vanney left didn't fill me with confidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC_905 View Post
    What about Richie? They deserve a lot of credit for that one.
    True. And a fair point; possibly there is a strength in recognizing underutilized ability and / or youth with potential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC_905 View Post
    Seba came to TFC and was the highest paid Italian player in the world at the time. It shouldn’t of surprised people when Seba left for money. I can’t blame him either. I’m all for players getting paid.... heck, it’s why we’ll be able to take any talent we want from CPL. Money talks.

    Jozy resigned Because the $$ made sense for him.

    VDV left and we went to mls cup final. I wouldn’t pay much attention to what he says. He vastly under delivered here and hasn’t been able to get a job since.
    I think people are making a different point - Manning and Curtis seemed to be surprised by Seba leaving. they should not have been.

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    True. And a fair point; possibly there is a strength in recognizing underutilized ability and / or youth with potential.
    By all means they seem genuinely good at this. But I fear they can’t see the forest through the trees on a bigger signings.

    My rough tabulation on the deals of consequence are as follows (i.e. Large TAM or DP moves):

    Good:
    -Pozuelo
    - Bradley extension (marginally, we could debate this)

    Average (but perhaps uninspired):
    - Gonzales
    - Piatti
    - letting Gio go

    Poor:
    - Altidore extension
    - finding a game changer / secondary scoring threat out wide or up top.

    Other major detractors:
    - taking too long to do things under the guise of being some sort of higher level thinker.
    - clunky negotiations spilling over to the press

  15. #345
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    you can add the gallardo tam signing that took months,its funny they were scouting somebody else but decided on gallardo,,im sure manning has a big say in signings,maybe thats why vanney walked, had no say in players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    The alternative is that the hiring of Manning and Curtis indicates the opposite. Specifically, that MLSE’s hirings indicate a vision of this club that is no longer shiny and more NYRB than LA Galaxy.
    .
    Could be right. That said, even if the money is not there I still think the way they go about business falls short. The communication sucks. Their timing has been abysmal. Hate to say it but winning alone in this market is not enough. It’s a busy city so unless you’re the Leafs and living off 100 years or history, you need to have a real plan to get people’s attention.

    Curtis or Manning to be frank just seem like the wrong people for the job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokecell View Post
    Why is so much time spent dissecting the inner workings of MLSE upper management and not discussing anything tangible or football related?

    Cause the hiring of this manager is the first one by this President & this GM, both of whom say they want to compete now and always.

  18. #348
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    I really don"t understand the disdain towards Manning and Curtis on this forum vs the absolute reverence shown towards Vanney. It's as if all failures are the fault of the former, and all successes due to the latter. A new coach hasn't even been hired and yet many of you have already decided that it will be a bad hire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NK Toronto View Post
    I really don"t understand the disdain towards Manning and Curtis on this forum vs the absolute reverence shown towards Vanney. It's as if all failures are the fault of the former, and all successes due to the latter. A new coach hasn't even been hired and yet many of you have already decided that it will be a bad hire.
    I think it is more uncertainty about their skills given the uninspiring tack record to date., and the fact that this hire is on them so scrutiny will be on them. Also, the core of this team, except for Pozuelo, predates these two, and we all watched Vanney take the team from poor and barely competing for a playoff spot to champions. And Vanney gets criticism - lots of us have been critical of him from time to time - for example, I still maintain that we win 2019 if Jozy comes on at the half - but he has gone and the question is, what are Manning and Curtis going to do?

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    I think this issue of “credit” needs to be framed differently. I definitely rate Manning - for certain things.

    Manning deserves a ton of credit for not wrecking what Leiweke built. He provided steady, stable leadership, brought Bez along, worked well with Vanney. The signature signing of his time was VV, but he also deserves credit for Pozo. His organization been good in identifying talent within the league (Deleon, Laryea, Beitashour, Will Johnson) and it appears they are finally getting decent young players in (Akinola, Priso, Achara). The title appearances and trophies belong to him. He will have a place in our heart for that forever.

    My criticism of Manning relates solely to his behaviour in the signings game, where he is mostly getting his head handed to him. The vdW for Beitashour swap cost them a lot of money, wrecked a season all by itself, and seems to have gotten in his head. Ever since he has been cheaping out on international signings (Pozo being the exception, where his hand was forced), not getting results from it, and in too many cases leaving scar tissue. Janson on loan. Benezet on loan (and screwing the guy over on the formula that gets him a contract based on games played). Causing a weeks long uproar in the Belgium league by triggering a buyout clause without talking to the team. Gallardo is a dumpster fire (he is so bad that I always suspected this signing would be a cause of friction with Vanney, I wonder about that). We got nothing out of Piatti.

    That “scar tissue” won’t attract managers, and then there is a style point. What other club lets every single key individual play out the contract? The negotiations with Seba and Jozy, Vanney and Bradley, were all left too late. (Letting the captain actually get to free agency and then signing him was kind of a wow, I thought about that also when Vanney left.) Osorio was almost another example of this, but he actually signed in August of his last year in his deal - Oso had a career year in 2018, which I suspect forced Manning to sign him during the Euro window that year. But again, he went to the bitter end. Ashtone Morgan and Justin Morrow... the same thing.

    Personnel of this stature should be signed or properly let go, these repeated “we will maybe keep you at a lower price” or “we will only resign you if our hand is forced” moves for championship cornerstone players (and managers) are unbecoming. This has to be a huge topic of conversation in the room, and not in a good way.

    I don’t think it’s a question any more. We are not going to be a “big club” spending at the top of the league under Manning. We will be above the average, that's all.

    Anyway, back to the prediction business. We have the leadership we have, for better and for worse. There is a lot to like about Manning, I just wish Leiweke were still in charge. Manning is not comfortable operating in the bigger game, his track record shows what he is good at and what he isn’t good at. Manning is most successful and comfortable working the halls of MLS and US Soccer. That's who he is, and that is where the manager will come from.

    (Curtis I don’t feel the need to consider. Ignore the title. He is a secondary figure who does the plumbing and electrical - the same was mostly true for Bez btw, but Bez was hella better at the microphone than Curtis.)
    Last edited by ensco; 12-28-2020 at 09:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    We got nothing out of Piatti.
    I know for a DP level guy he didn't tear it up but he was really like a TAM level by salary and new to the league plus coming off a decent injury lay off. For all that 4 goals and 4 assists isn't bad. He gets talked about like he's Gallardo but he is way more useful than Gallardo and even Jozy. At least he plays.

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    ^I didn't watch much this year but it seems to me there were all kinds of TAM signings in the past year in MLS, at least 10, that made a bigger mark than Piatti. We also didn't move on Zimmerman or Nagbe when they were available last year. We keep having mediocrity/airballs with this part of the roster/salary structure.

    I deliberately left Jozy out, what has happened with him I think supports my general thesis of the current regime not being able to manage the elite/complex end of the talent structure, but Jozy is a thread topic all by himself, and there are a bunch of shades of grey there.
    Last edited by ensco; 12-28-2020 at 12:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    We also didn't move on Zimmerman or Nagbe when they were available last year. We keep having mediocrity/airballs with this part of the roster/salary structure.
    I don't think we had the allocation money to get either. We have too much tied up paying down Gallardo, Gonzalez, Osorio, Mavinga, etc.

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    A few points that I want to state in response to some of the prior comments;
    1) With respect to not re signing Seba, in hindsight that has proven to be the correct decision. If he is re-signed we have 3 DP's and we don't get Poz who at this stage is a more valuable asset.
    2) Is the Gallardo signing totally the fault of Manning? Wouldn't it have been discussed with Vanney first who would have had the chance to view videos of the player and give his feedback as to whether there is a role for him in the lineup? If yes and Vanney expressed an interest in Gallardo then there is joint responsibility for that signing.
    3) A constant theme with this club over the past few years are the number of injuries resulting in key players being out for crucial matches. How many times have these injuries occurred during training sessions? Is this not the responsibility of coaching? A healthy VV and we probably win CCL in 2018. A healthy Jozy and we probably win MLS Cup in 2019. For some reason this is rarely discussed.

    In my view the biggest mistake Manning has made was the current 4 year contract given to Jozy. However this conclusion is based on hindsight. At the time it was given it seemed reasonable.
    Last edited by NK Toronto; 12-28-2020 at 04:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NK Toronto View Post
    3) A constant theme with this club over the past few years are the number of injuries resulting on key players being out for crucial matches. How many times have these injuries occurred during training sessions? Is this not the responsibility of coaching? A healthy VV and we probably win CCL in 2018. A healthy Jozy and we probably win MLS Cup in 2019. For some reason this is rarely discussed.
    I bring this up all the time and that's a department of the coaching staff chosen by Vanney. Obviously the overall fitness level of TFC is among, if not the worst in MLS. I don't mean just injuries either, I mean physical fitness and endurance in matches. I watched more MLS this shortened season than ever before (I have DAZN now) and the issues with being unable to play 2 matches a week without being completely gassed is mostly isolated to us. Even on 7 days rest a decent majority of the squad is done by the 60th minute except for Jozy who is solid for about 40 minutes at the best of times. I have a feeling our training sessions became more and more tactics and technical drills and minimal conditioning. From that comes these niggling type of injuries that plague us and hopefully now it will be fixed.

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    ^ I think that’s a fair criticism.

    My $0.02 is, while I would certainly put a few things on Vanney, by and large the results are a function of the quality of our roster. We’ve certainly taken flyers on a few guys with an injury history and stated this wasn’t going to be a problem with TFC. The odd player like this is fine but we always seem to roll the dice in this area.

    Same goes with speed. Not than any individual player needs to be fast but when you look across the roster and there is very little of it to go around, makes you concerned.

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    Ensco, I think has made the key point, and it is also the right response to NK Toronto - it is HOW this has all been handled, as much as the results, that cause questions about Mannng / Curtis:

    then there is a style point. What other club lets every single key individual play out the contract? The negotiations with Seba and Jozy, Vanney and Bradley, were all left too late. (Letting the captain actually get to free agency and then signing him was kind of a wow, I thought about that also when Vanney left.) Osorio was almost another example of this, but he actually signed in August of his last year in his deal - Oso had a career year in 2018, which I suspect forced Manning to sign him during the Euro window that year. But again, he went to the bitter end. Ashtone Morgan and Justin Morrow... the same thing. Personnel of this stature should be signed or properly let go, these repeated “we will maybe keep you at a lower price” or “we will only resign you if our hand is forced” moves for championship cornerstone players (and managers) are unbecoming. This has to be a huge topic of conversation in the room, and not in a good way.
    I also think Ensco is generally right that Manning is effective "working the halls of MLS," and he does note lots of positive contributions. And I do tend to agree that we are a big club but will not be run as a big money club in future - hope I am wrong but.

    However, I thought Piatti did well for us. he played hard, really hard - covered his defensive responsibilities - and was very talented. He and poz work well together. We still needed a winger, but with him Poz and Richie working the right side we were very effective indeed - dangerous.

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    3) A constant theme with this club over the past few years are the number of injuries resulting in key players being out for crucial matches. How many times have these injuries occurred during training sessions? Is this not the responsibility of coaching? A healthy VV and we probably win CCL in 2018. A healthy Jozy and we probably win MLS Cup in 2019. For some reason this is rarely discussed.

    Agree with posters above that this is a fair criticism. Ultra and Proud's point that training might be too much tactical and too little physical is a good one; certainly possible.

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    As others have said, I wish we still had any journalists that can ask the tough questions of TFC. I've posted about this a couple of times previously: WTF happened to the sports analytics company they hired after the injury-riddled 2018 season? That was all hyped up at the time, but AFAIK was never mentioned again in any article, presser, interview etc. -- and we continued to have lots of key injuries.

    Here's the article from the time, the company was Kitman Labs: https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/...-campeones-cup

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    As others have said, I wish we still had any journalists that can ask the tough questions of TFC. I've posted about this a couple of times previously: WTF happened to the sports analytics company they hired after the injury-riddled 2018 season? That was all hyped up at the time, but AFAIK was never mentioned again in any article, presser, interview etc. -- and we continued to have lots of key injuries.

    Here's the article from the time, the company was Kitman Labs: https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/...-campeones-cup
    Seems like that analytics company just gives recommendations on training patterns but it's up to our coaching staff to actually do the training. After hearing Vanney talk about congested schedules for the past few years that he & his team probably thought going easier in training and focusing on tactics would give players the chance to recover better but in effect, it makes everything worse. You watch all the teams that play shitty high intensity presses with a task master manager (SKC, MNUFC, NSH) and they avoid a these muscle strains that plague us and they can manage playing their game for 90+ minutes even in the congested playoffs. Nashville was dancing around us for the last 50+ minutes (including ET) of our playoff match and they just played a couple days before. With the rest we had there's simply no excuse to be the less fresh of the two teams yet we always were. Since 2018 anyway.

 

 

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