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  1. #211
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    ^I don't know if Garber should be fired or not for this, the owners will need to decide if they personally blame him for the situation, however the league's lawyers missing a force majeur clause is not a good look on them. Those clauses are common in all sorts of contracts including sports contracts.

    That article is a good find. To me it looks like the owners have the upper hand in this situation.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-01-2020 at 11:01 AM.


  2. #212
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    Owners have no-one to blame but themselves. Boohoo.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    To me it looks like the owners have the upper hand in this situation.
    To me it looks like the owners would be in breach of their labour contract if they lock the players out over the players' unwillingness to risk their lives for this fake sham event.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  4. #214
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    So what do the players really gain by giving those concessions? Nothing is stopping them from sitting on their asses and collecting all that is owed due to the lack of force majeure clause.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by magmadragon View Post
    So what do the players really gain by giving those concessions? Nothing is stopping them from sitting on their asses and collecting all that is owed due to the lack of force majeure clause.
    Nicely summarized
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by magmadragon View Post
    So what do the players really gain by giving those concessions? Nothing is stopping them from sitting on their asses and collecting all that is owed due to the lack of force majeure clause.
    The concessions made in the latest player offer are "see we want to work here".

    MLS locking out its players may happen although there would be little to no support for ownership to do that. Would be interesting to see what spin the owners would put out.


    Playing with scabs during a pandemic in a locked down facility would be ignored - darts would get larger crowds. Can't see ESPN going for a scab fake tourney with no crowds. Can you imagine what Timber's army would say?


    I can see a lockout but honestly, I think a deal gets done. Its in both sides interests to have something going on this summer.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I can see a lockout but honestly, I think a deal gets done. Its in both sides interests to have something going on this summer.
    Is it though?

    If I’m a player I can be at home safely with my family getting full pay.

    If I’m an owner I don’t see how I profit from this Orlando tournament.

    As a selfish fan of course I want to see something happen.

  8. #218
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    Owners & players profit through keeping the league seen this summer. Usually, MLS has soccer to itself in the summer - there will be a LOT of domestic European soccer going on. MLS can't lose that many eyeballs.


    ****

    Twellman saying there is a breakthrough



  9. #219
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    How many eye balls would you expect to get playing at 9 am on a Tuesday on a training ground down in Florida? Maybe there can use a few stadiums to spread things out and avoid some early morning kickoffs. Not sure how much exposure you will get if the NBA and NHL playoffs are going on at the same time. This is going to be a tough up hill battle for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Owners & players profit through keeping the league seen this summer. Usually, MLS has soccer to itself in the summer - there will be a LOT of domestic European soccer going on. MLS can't lose that many eyeballs.


    ****

    Twellman saying there is a breakthrough



    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    How many eye balls would you expect to get playing at 9 am on a Tuesday on a training ground down in Florida? Maybe there can use a few stadiums to spread things out and avoid some early morning kickoffs. Not sure how much exposure you will get if the NBA and NHL playoffs are going on at the same time. This is going to be a tough up hill battle for them.
    They can count on my two eyeballs....if that helps

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    How many eye balls would you expect to get playing at 9 am on a Tuesday on a training ground down in Florida? Maybe there can use a few stadiums to spread things out and avoid some early morning kickoffs. Not sure how much exposure you will get if the NBA and NHL playoffs are going on at the same time. This is going to be a tough up hill battle for them.
    I'm kind of expecting that the matches will be repeated in prime time.

  12. #222
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    Eyeballs in Europe if no games are on - this will be on Sky in the UK.

    Players voting tomorrow on latest offer from MLS - league backed down on things.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    How many eye balls would you expect to get playing at 9 am on a Tuesday on a training ground down in Florida? Maybe there can use a few stadiums to spread things out and avoid some early morning kickoffs. Not sure how much exposure you will get if the NBA and NHL playoffs are going on at the same time. This is going to be a tough up hill battle for them.
    I would love that as I work nights... but I understand that I am for the most part an exception to the rule

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    ^I don't know if Garber should be fired or not for this, the owners will need to decide if they personally blame him for the situation, however the league's lawyers missing a force majeur clause is not a good look on them. Those clauses are common in all sorts of contracts including sports contracts.

    That article is a good find. To me it looks like the owners have the upper hand in this situation.
    There might be reasons we don't know - for example, was the force majeur clause left out on purpose because of some legal impact on the single entity system? or becasue its existence confirmed some legal argument the union had about a separate issue, like health and safety?

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    MLS negotiating seems to be dependent upon whom Garber is listening to that day.

    The hardline "we want to change a few other things" stance of the weekend sounded like the old guard - the Hunts & Kraft & their disciples like Precourt & the guy in Minnesota.

    The "lets not be stupid here, take what we got & get back" stance of yesterday sounded like MLSE, Blank & LAFC's ownership posse.


    I would be shocked if this doesn't pass today and we have MLS in a bubble by the end of the month.

    ***********

    Even if we get this bubble tourney, the reason for this thread still exists. MLS 2020 for us as supporters who go to games - that is over. And MLS should admit that games with fans are not coming back so people can get $ or credits.

  16. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post

    Even if we get this bubble tourney, the reason for this thread still exists. MLS 2020 for us as supporters who go to games - that is over. And MLS should admit that games with fans are not coming back so people can get $ or credits.
    That's the next thing that should happen. I realize that they may be hoping against hope that they can rescue the season, or part of it, but that does not seem possible at this point. Even next year will depend on a vaccine or effective medications becoming readily available.


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    "
    Hell is always loose here. It can't break loose again
    ."
    -Fort York Redcoat, on the state of TFC

  18. #228
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    Yup

    Here's the player statement


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    Interesting saw off. In return for not fighting the players on keeping almost all (92.5%) of this years windfall, the league got the players to agree they they won’t be paid if this goes into 2021. Which seems fair - the league would fold if this kept going. The league was pretty obviously in a very weak legal position on the “lockout” - any court would have seen through it.

    I still am somewhat dubious that the Orlando tournament will actually happen, given the cost/benefit. But I certainly see that everyone wants to do it.

    I am not sure Garber/Abbott survive this. If I am an MLS owner I am beyond upset, as this negotiating error has cost me $15-25M (depending on the team). It's too big to fob off on lawyers. Everybody else had this provision.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post

    I am not sure Garber/Abbott survive this. If I am an MLS owner I am beyond upset, as this negotiating error has cost me $15-25M (depending on the team). It's too big to fob off on lawyers. Everybody else had this provision.
    A mistake, but a minor in the grand scheme of things considering how Garber and his team grew the league and the value of each team.

    "
    Hell is always loose here. It can't break loose again
    ."
    -Fort York Redcoat, on the state of TFC

  21. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    A mistake, but a minor in the grand scheme of things considering how Garber and his team grew the league and the value of each team.
    Could be, as this maybe is the right way to look at it.

    Not, in my experience, how these types of guys think.

    This is a real life, hard to call, management case study.

    Garber is a marketing guy, but Abbott is a lawyer. So maybe they will train their ire on Abbott. But Garber is an anomaly, it's actually unusual for a league president NOT to be a lawyer. This is Exhibit A of why that is. Not sure how that all might wash out.

    A strong owner would definitely question all of his/her own decisions around this. You can't blame Garber for not being something you knew he wasn't. (This is why I never got mad at Anselmi or Mariner - if someone is put into a role that they are not qualified for, the responsible party is the one that supported/appointed them)
    Last edited by ensco; 06-03-2020 at 11:46 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  22. #232
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    United Soccer Marketing is Garber's legacy, as is adopting international rules for MLS (may seem obvious today, but until him they were trying to "Americanize" the game, just like the NASL did). Those are pretty big positives, generally would make him safe.

    Now it's possible that these rich owners (and they are no longer only "guys," there is now also female ownership) will say "what have you done for me recently?" However, it's not just Garber who screwed up, it's the negotiating committee, the lawyers, and ultimately the board of Governors. Yeah, I could totally be wrong, they could make him the scapegoat, give him a golden parachute and replace him, but I don't believe that they want to do anything radical at this point.

    He's close to retirement in a year or two, they will replace him with a carefully chosen candidate at that time.


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    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  24. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    He's close to retirement in a year or two, they will replace him with a carefully chosen candidate at that time.
    Agreed

    Garber made a point yesterday of saying he was the one who inserted the lockout discussion. You only do that if you know you are not around in a couple of seasons. He may or may not have been the instigator but he is going to take the fall. Possibly because the force majeure clause fiasco was going to cost him anyways so why not attempt to get something out of a "forlorn hope" charge.

    What the ploy did do is actually give the players a little bit of influence over who the next commissioner is going to be - gonna be a person who comes across somewhat as a conciliator that can "work with our player partners".

    Chess moves

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    The caretaker scenario, could be. I dunno. Those types of setups are not great, they are inherently unstable, with all the politics/jockeying for future position, and you want people taking long term decisions. It also implies a level of cohesion among the owners that may or may not be there.

    I wonder if Bez is a candidate for the job btw
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Too lazy to scroll through this thread to see if this was talked about. However, I would like to know why don’t they just play regular season games in Orlando rather than have this meaningless tournament? This tournament I think is a colossal waist of time and money. Just play regular season games in Orlando and go from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoccMan2 View Post
    Too lazy to scroll through this thread to see if this was talked about. However, I would like to know why don’t they just play regular season games in Orlando rather than have this meaningless tournament? This tournament I think is a colossal waist of time and money. Just play regular season games in Orlando and go from there.
    It's about the home gates, which are the main source of revenue. If there is a way they can, somehow, get the season in by playing two games a week in the fall in the usual format, with home games, they will do that. That's why no refunds so far.

    They are dreaming in technicolour, of course, but that is the thought process.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  28. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    It's about the home gates, which are the main source of revenue. If there is a way they can, somehow, get the season in by playing two games a week in the fall in the usual format, with home games, they will do that. That's why no refunds so far.

    They are dreaming in technicolour, of course, but that is the thought process.
    Its likely there will be able to do that with fans in the stands in places like Dallas, Orlando and Atlanta etc but there no chance in my mind it will happen here in Toronto and other cities in 2020.

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

  29. #239
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    So what’s going on with our seasons tix? Like what they waiting for ?

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    Most likely they’ll give us credit for next season

 

 

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