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  1. #1441
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    I want to be very wrong on this, but I am hoping we are not going to start doing Curtis' old NYRB model of building from within too much. 2-3 players is fine and normal. They need to act on getting that DP and a quality starting 11 piece. They have moved around enough money to get this done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
    I want to be very wrong on this, but I am hoping we are not going to start doing Curtis' old NYRB model of building from within too much. 2-3 players is fine and normal.
    That's exactly what I think we're going to see for the first half of the season. The kids are all going to get starts until June so the braintrust knows what they have to work with, who's ready, who has potential, and who should be cut loose. They'll take the losses and mistakes and see who improves. They're probably aiming for mid-table, just inside or outside the playoffs. If anything, last year proved to MLS FOs that you don't need to be in first place at the end of season, only have momentum and a team that comes together at the right time to make a playoff run. MLS Cup or bust, Supporter's Shield is an afterthought and irrelevant in an unbalanced schedule.

    Then the club is going to spring for a DP and a couple of quality players on TAM or loan by end of June and get them integrated by the beginning of September and go on a run from then until the MLS Cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
    I want to be very wrong on this, but I am hoping we are not going to start doing Curtis' old NYRB model of building from within too much. 2-3 players is fine and normal. They need to act on getting that DP and a quality starting 11 piece. They have moved around enough money to get this done.
    I'm far from a "All Canadian Homegrowns Forever!" guy but if we can successfully develop young players like NYRB then I am all for it. I hope we turn into what NYRB were. Winning shields and being top drawer consistently sounds good to me.

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    I do enjoy seeing homegrowns come through and hopefully go onto bigger and better things. That said, I am a firm believer in them earning their playing time. Everyone is so quick to try and displace players like Delgado, DeLeon and Endoh, but these guys have earned the spots they have and Vanney is not going to just hand someone like Nelson a spot just because he has the hype. That said, we desperately need to develop some defenders for both club and country. The national team is shambolic defensively.

  5. #1445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    That's exactly what I think we're going to see for the first half of the season. The kids are all going to get starts until June so the braintrust knows what they have to work with, who's ready, who has potential, and who should be cut loose. They'll take the losses and mistakes and see who improves. They're probably aiming for mid-table, just inside or outside the playoffs. If anything, last year proved to MLS FOs that you don't need to be in first place at the end of season, only have momentum and a team that comes together at the right time to make a playoff run. MLS Cup or bust, Supporter's Shield is an afterthought and irrelevant in an unbalanced schedule.

    Then the club is going to spring for a DP and a couple of quality players on TAM or loan by end of June and get them integrated by the beginning of September and go on a run from then until the MLS Cup.
    This is a very interesting line of thought that I am sure many on this board have. I have actually had this line of thought before I slapped this nonsense out of my head.
    Let me explain to you why this line of thought that supporters shield and first place means nothing and the just get hot and run the table at the end is all you need to do is utter nonsense.

    1) winning supporters shield gives a team around a 40% chance of winning the MLS cup
    2) winning the division but not supporters shield give a 20-25% chance of winning the MLS cup
    3) finishing 4th as TFC did gives a team around a 8% chance of winning the MLS cup
    4) finishing 6th or 7th gives a team around a 3-4% chance of winning the MLS cup.

    these odds were the outright odds on oddsportal when the regular season ended.

    What TFC did last year beating NYCFC in the last 5minutes and Atlanta in the last 12 minutes was highly improbable. The in game odds were around 2% for tfc to win both of those games in regulation time.

    Plus and this is very important, the fans are not paying good money to go down to BMO and see a shitshow. We are paying to be entertained. If memory serves me correctly every home game after the MN United game was a shitshow until the Impact game in August.

    I am very curious to see how many people are at BMO this year due to the crap that was on the field last year.
    I don't think they can risk that again. They have got to put a quality team on the field at the start of the year.
    If we had of lost in NYC everybodys whole attitude would be different.
    Last edited by stevep; 01-25-2020 at 12:49 AM.

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    The point on filling BMO is good. This is a crowded market and we aren't in a 20k stadium anymore. Anything less than 28k makes the place look pretty empty now.

    Apart from CCL, the last two years have been largely hard to watch at BMO. Even the product on television is difficult. We didn't exactly get into MLS Cup on the back of five star performances or exciting as in the past. Those playoff games were fucking brutal to watch this year. If we say fuck the first half of the season then I think the team is in danger of slipping in relevancy. The reality of this market is that you need notable figures connecting with the community and you need to do that while you win. You don't need Zlatan, but you need Giovinco. Likewise, a Luís Nani is more desirable than an Ezequiel Barco. It's not the number one consideration but I think timing and marketability genuinely need to be considerations when chasing DP targets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    The point on filling BMO is good. This is a crowded market and we aren't in a 20k stadium anymore. Anything less than 28k makes the place look pretty empty now.

    Apart from CCL, the last two years have been largely hard to watch at BMO. Even the product on television is difficult. We didn't exactly get into MLS Cup on the back of five star performances or exciting as in the past. Those playoff games were fucking brutal to watch this year. If we say fuck the first half of the season then I think the team is in danger of slipping in relevancy. The reality of this market is that you need notable figures connecting with the community and you need to do that while you win. You don't need Zlatan, but you need Giovinco. Likewise, a Luís Nani is more desirable than an Ezequiel Barco. It's not the number one consideration but I think timing and marketability genuinely need to be considerations when chasing DP targets.
    There was a total lack of interest in the MLS cup last year by anyone other than hard core tfc fans.
    heck real sports bar, owned by MLSE didn't even have a viewing party!!

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    The expansion of BMO, the whole upper east, well we now can see it was a colossal mistake. I have no idea why Leiweke did that, and said so at that time, and that was before anyone knew that most of those additional seats would turn out to be terrible. I will take any seat in the building above a seat in the upper east, unless it's in the first 3-4 rows.)

    I thought this big expansion was because they had some grand, sneaky vision to do a bunch of outdoor Leaf games, but that wasn't it. It was the stupid Grey Cup, and one Leaf gane. Hope they enjoyed that.

    Why so big? Why couldn't they have just closed in the corners, done a bit more in the endzones, left it at 25K, and spared us the upper east?

    So now they 7000 or 8000 seats that they have real trouble selling, except for the very best games. Plus by doing that they have seriously impaired the value prop for SSHs - I am not one, I have no trouble getting decent seats for any game I want to go to, including playoffs. The only game I ever had to pay a serious premium for was MLS Cup 2017.

    It has all kinds of knock on effects, including the one we are talking about. Without a special team, like the 2017 version, it's pretty dead in there.
    Last edited by ensco; 01-25-2020 at 10:09 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    The expansion of BMO, the whole upper east, well we now can see it was a colossal mistake. I have no idea why Leiweke did that, and said so at that time, and that was before anyone knew that most of those additional seats would turn out to be terrible. I will take any seat in the building above a seat in the upper east, unless it's in the first 3-4 rows.)

    I thought this big expansion was because they had some grand, sneaky vision to do a bunch of outdoor Leaf games, but that wasn't it. It was the stupid Grey Cup, and one Leaf gane. Hope they enjoyed that.

    Why so big? Why couldn't they have just closed in the corners, done a bit more in the endzones, left it at 25K, and spared us the upper east?

    So now they 7000 or 8000 seats that they have real trouble selling, except for the very best games. Plus by doing that they have seriously impaired the value prop for SSHs - I am not one, I have no trouble getting decent seats for any game I want to go to, including playoffs. The only game I ever had to pay a serious premium for was MLS Cup 2017.

    It has all kinds of knock on effects, including the one we are talking about. Without a special team, like the 2017 version, it's pretty dead in there.
    Plus, changes for Argos in North end deaden atmosphere.

  10. #1450
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    The expansion of BMO, the whole upper east, well we now can see it was a colossal mistake. I have no idea why Leiweke did that, and said so at that time, and that was before anyone knew that most of those additional seats would turn out to be terrible. I will take any seat in the building above a seat in the upper east, unless it's in the first 3-4 rows.)

    I thought this big expansion was because they had some grand, sneaky vision to do a bunch of outdoor Leaf games, but that wasn't it. It was the stupid Grey Cup, and one Leaf gane. Hope they enjoyed that.

    Why so big? Why couldn't they have just closed in the corners, done a bit more in the endzones, left it at 25K, and spared us the upper east?

    So now they 7000 or 8000 seats that they have real trouble selling, except for the very best games. Plus by doing that they have seriously impaired the value prop for SSHs - I am not one, I have no trouble getting decent seats for any game I want to go to, including playoffs. The only game I ever had to pay a serious premium for was MLS Cup 2017.
    Well, the team was doing fine without the addition, but now that it's there it's harming nothing except the skyline views while providing flux capacity when the team piques the public interest again. They've sunk the cost into it and I'm sure it's accounted for somewhere on the balance sheet as having completed its ROI so any more profit is gravy.

  11. #1451
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    It makes me wonder where the season seat numbers truthfully are, because if they are where it has been suggested a lot bought tickets are simply going unused for certain games. I was once told by someone that there were games where 5,000-6,000 seats that were off the system ie sold were going unused. Now I get TFC tickets are very cheap compared to the Leafs and Raptors, thus someone is not going to loose their minds if their tickets were to go unused, but to see that happen in mass makes me wonder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    The expansion of BMO, the whole upper east, well we now can see it was a colossal mistake. I have no idea why Leiweke did that, and said so at that time, and that was before anyone knew that most of those additional seats would turn out to be terrible. I will take any seat in the building above a seat in the upper east, unless it's in the first 3-4 rows.)

    I thought this big expansion was because they had some grand, sneaky vision to do a bunch of outdoor Leaf games, but that wasn't it. It was the stupid Grey Cup, and one Leaf gane. Hope they enjoyed that.

    Why so big? Why couldn't they have just closed in the corners, done a bit more in the endzones, left it at 25K, and spared us the upper east?

    So now they 7000 or 8000 seats that they have real trouble selling, except for the very best games. Plus by doing that they have seriously impaired the value prop for SSHs - I am not one, I have no trouble getting decent seats for any game I want to go to, including playoffs. The only game I ever had to pay a serious premium for was MLS Cup 2017.

    It has all kinds of knock on effects, including the one we are talking about. Without a special team, like the 2017 version, it's pretty dead in there.

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

  12. #1452
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    boy do we need a signing.this thread in jan should be called the sky is falling thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    The expansion of BMO, the whole upper east, well we now can see it was a colossal mistake. I have no idea why Leiweke did that, and said so at that time, and that was before anyone knew that most of those additional seats would turn out to be terrible. I will take any seat in the building above a seat in the upper east, unless it's in the first 3-4 rows.)

    I thought this big expansion was because they had some grand, sneaky vision to do a bunch of outdoor Leaf games, but that wasn't it. It was the stupid Grey Cup, and one Leaf gane. Hope they enjoyed that.

    Why so big? Why couldn't they have just closed in the corners, done a bit more in the endzones, left it at 25K, and spared us the upper east?

    So now they 7000 or 8000 seats that they have real trouble selling, except for the very best games. Plus by doing that they have seriously impaired the value prop for SSHs - I am not one, I have no trouble getting decent seats for any game I want to go to, including playoffs. The only game I ever had to pay a serious premium for was MLS Cup 2017.

    It has all kinds of knock on effects, including the one we are talking about. Without a special team, like the 2017 version, it's pretty dead in there.
    I think it would be foolish to call the expansion a failure. Our average attendance certainly eclipses our previous capacity and the size of the facility has made it a likely venue for the 2026 World Cup. Also, if you look at the two previous runs playoff runs you’ll see sell outs and major issues with ticket scarcity.

  14. #1454
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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    The point on filling BMO is good. This is a crowded market and we aren't in a 20k stadium anymore. Anything less than 28k makes the place look pretty empty now.

    Apart from CCL, the last two years have been largely hard to watch at BMO. Even the product on television is difficult. We didn't exactly get into MLS Cup on the back of five star performances or exciting as in the past. Those playoff games were fucking brutal to watch this year. If we say fuck the first half of the season then I think the team is in danger of slipping in relevancy. The reality of this market is that you need notable figures connecting with the community and you need to do that while you win. You don't need Zlatan, but you need Giovinco. Likewise, a Luís Nani is more desirable than an Ezequiel Barco. It's not the number one consideration but I think timing and marketability genuinely need to be considerations when chasing DP targets.
    Agree with this completely. A low-key, but well run club won’t move the needle here. There needs to be some form of hype.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    The expansion of BMO, the whole upper east, well we now can see it was a colossal mistake. I have no idea why Leiweke did that, and said so at that time, and that was before anyone knew that most of those additional seats would turn out to be terrible. I will take any seat in the building above a seat in the upper east, unless it's in the first 3-4 rows.)

    I thought this big expansion was because they had some grand, sneaky vision to do a bunch of outdoor Leaf games, but that wasn't it. It was the stupid Grey Cup, and one Leaf gane. Hope they enjoyed that.

    Why so big? Why couldn't they have just closed in the corners, done a bit more in the endzones, left it at 25K, and spared us the upper east?

    So now they 7000 or 8000 seats that they have real trouble selling, except for the very best games. Plus by doing that they have seriously impaired the value prop for SSHs - I am not one, I have no trouble getting decent seats for any game I want to go to, including playoffs. The only game I ever had to pay a serious premium for was MLS Cup 2017.

    It has all kinds of knock on effects, including the one we are talking about. Without a special team, like the 2017 version, it's pretty dead in there.
    So what is the solution:

    lets say for argument sake 6000 seats in the east go unsold every game, that's roughly 100,000 seats/yr (17*6000)
    If the seats sell for an average price of $50CDN $40 USD thats $4M USD/yr
    They need to get a guy for around $4M/yr to fill those seats, they need a marquis name of Italian or Portugese descent as withing blocking distance to BMO is Little Italy and Little Portugal
    Now there is no profit from seat sales as the revenue = cost ($4M revenue=$4 cost)
    but now the atmosphere is there, more people feeds on more people
    Now there would be profit from beer sales and food sales from those 100,000 people and
    there would most likely be a 2nd playoff game at BMO which would bring in around $4M USD
    there would be a second playoff game in all likelihood because the team would be really good with a $4M DP

    and also don't play your second string guys at BMO save them for road games, that really pissed a lot of people off last year
    Last edited by stevep; 01-25-2020 at 11:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie View Post
    boy do we need a signing.this thread in jan should be called the sky is falling thread.
    Over the past few years when I am out and about after games with my TFC shirt the odd person will ask me how the game was.
    I will tell him, then he will tell me that they used to be a SSH but they cancelled for whatever reason, ticket prices went up, team was crap etc.
    Not one of those people I have spoken to has returned to a SSH.
    Once fan is gone as a SSH he is gone as a SSH.

    This is serious shit man.

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    You guys should start a thread about seating and tickets elsewhere pls. Also inclined to agree with the name change to this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    Over the past few years when I am out and about after games with my TFC shirt the odd person will ask me how the game was.
    I will tell him, then he will tell me that they used to be a SSH but they cancelled for whatever reason, ticket prices went up, team was crap etc.
    Not one of those people I have spoken to has returned to a SSH.
    Once fan is gone as a SSH he is gone as a SSH.

    This is serious shit man.
    this is the roster thread,where i come to see the lack of signings and ali s bs,the club has been to 3 finals in 4 years and have the highest payroll,but i must say the club does treat the SSH like shit and take us for granted

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    Most recent straight from Curtis on MLS.com:

    “TFC will always be one of the top spenders in Major League Soccer,” vowed Curtis. “What we are fortunate to have above that is to be able to invest in all ways, in terms of Designated Players and all the other discretionary spend that you have the ability to invest in … as well as all the other ancillary spends in terms of sport science and performance and medical and scouting. We're going to do our best to succeed and perform and be a big club and be a successful club in this league. That will not stop.”

    “I think there's probably one or two more moves that we have that will be made,” said Curtis, “but a big goal of ours was consistency, and to bring the core of the team back … We view consistency as a really important principle.”

    “Jozy is a big player and we're a big club, and there's always rumors and comments and everything else that gets put out there in the atmosphere,” said the former New York Red Bulls executive. “But it's literally day four or five of preseason, and we're just trying to get to work. We're just excited about trying to improve upon the 2019 season and everything else is secondary or tertiary. We’re not worried about it. It’s important that we stay focused.”
    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2020/...uing-spend-big

    Pretty boiler plate stuff but no mention of anything imminent which is disappointing. The interesting thing is how quiet things have been on the CBA front. Players are trying to get rid of TAM at this point. The 23 year old DP thing sounds ridiculous. If things are getting overhauled that much waiting might be prudent. Especially if (big if) there's a work stoppage, a wait until June doesn't hurt as much.

    Interesting from Seattle's GM:

    “We don’t know the rules, we don’t know the money we [will] have. The most important thing for us is not to jeopardize any of the good players we have...So we are going to be conservative until that agreement is reached.”
    https://www.themaneland.com/2020/1/1...nsfer-activity

    At least they're a bit more transparent about the lack of activity. If we have the same strategy as the other team making 3/4 finals it might not be a terrible approach. Problem is our FO is frustratingly silent. The Bradley thing could have blown over so much smoother if after the final they announced the injury and said he was going through therapy. Then it makes more sense to hear it didn't work and he needs surgery. End of season surgeries and injuries that leak into next year happen in all sports all the time. Finding out on day 1 of training camp that your captain is out for 4 months is very mickey mouse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossington Mental Youth View Post
    You guys should start a thread about seating and tickets elsewhere pls. Also inclined to agree with the name change to this thread.
    I think it's still relevant to this conversation. Interest in the team is a serious issue which is pretty directly connected to the splash we make in the transfer market. Consistency is cool but consistency has also produced a pretty piss poor on field product for the last two years and it's not moving the needle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    I think it's still relevant to this conversation. Interest in the team is a serious issue which is pretty directly connected to the splash we make in the transfer market. Consistency is cool but consistency has also produced a pretty piss poor on field product for the last two years and it's not moving the needle.
    I have felt the same way ever since Seba and Vazquez left. It seems like overall interest in the team dropped off a cliff. This just confirms my view that Toronto is not a sports town, but instead a flavour of the month town, with the Raptors currently being that flavour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    I think it's still relevant to this conversation. Interest in the team is a serious issue which is pretty directly connected to the splash we make in the transfer market. Consistency is cool but consistency has also produced a pretty piss poor on field product for the last two years and it's not moving the needle.
    I'd argue it's not as it's sole focus is on seating and whether people renewed, people will come etc etc. Agree to disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NK Toronto View Post
    I have felt the same way ever since Seba and Vazquez left. It seems like overall interest in the team dropped off a cliff. This just confirms my view that Toronto is not a sports town, but instead a flavour of the month town, with the Raptors currently being that flavour.
    Exactly, TFC got really popular because the city was starving for a champion. Now that the raptors are the big dog in town TFC is kind of an afterthought. However they are still doing pretty well attendance wise and if they make a good signing they might create some more buzz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    Exactly, TFC got really popular because the city was starving for a champion. Now that the raptors are the big dog in town TFC is kind of an afterthought. However they are still doing pretty well attendance wise and if they make a good signing they might create some more buzz.

    In order to create that buzz they will need to sign a "name" player which is why we heard the Balotelli rumours. I think even mgmt knows that just having a winning team is not enough to fill the stadium.

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    Like Ive mentioned a few times in the past few months on these boards , if alarm bells didn’t go off when TFC was only able to get 25000 in their only playoff game last season versus D.C. United then I don’t know what will when it comes to attendance. We all knew it would be TFC’s only playoff game win or lose going into that game, but yet only 25000 people showed up. Moreover, it was a Saturday evening not a weekday game first of all and playing against Wayne Rooney which I would say next to Ronaldo, Messi and a few others is one of the most recognizable names in Soccer in the world but especially here in North America to the general sports fan and still only 25000 in the stands. This organization needs a name player soon before this team will be battling the Argos in the attendance race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoccMan2 View Post
    Like Ive mentioned a few times in the past few months on these boards , if alarm bells didn’t go off when TFC was only able to get 25000 in their only playoff game last season versus D.C. United then I don’t know what will when it comes to attendance. We all knew it would be TFC’s only playoff game win or lose going into that game, but yet only 25000 people showed up. Moreover, it was a Saturday evening not a weekday game first of all and playing against Wayne Rooney which I would say next to Ronaldo, Messi and a few others is one of the most recognizable names in Soccer in the world but especially here in North America to the general sports fan and still only 25000 in the stands. This organization needs a name player soon before this team will be battling the Argos in the attendance race.
    I wonder if TFC lost some fans to york9 and forge FC that could account for the dip in attendance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    I wonder if TFC lost some fans to york9 and forge FC that could account for the dip in attendance.

    I don't think that was the case as York9 only had a couple of thousand in the stands per game. I think it has more to do with the Toronto mentality that since MLS is not on par with the top 5 leagues in Europe it is therefore minor league and Torontonians will not support leagues they perceive as being minor league. I know quite a few people who religiously follow teams like Juventus and Inter but won't set foot into BMO field. Having said that I think MLSE got greedy with the ticket price increases. Instead they should have promoted the games as family entertainment with inexpensive tickets on the upper east side in order to help sell out the stadium.

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    TFC attendance as a live event won't be declining to Argos levels any time soon.

    Argos attendance issues is mostly related to demographics, which scew to a much older crowd that prefers to watch from home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NK Toronto View Post
    I don't think that was the case as York9 only had a couple of thousand in the stands per game. I think it has more to do with the Toronto mentality that since MLS is not on par with the top 5 leagues in Europe it is therefore minor league and Torontonians will not support leagues they perceive as being minor league. I know quite a few people who religiously follow teams like Juventus and Inter but won't set foot into BMO field. Having said that I think MLSE got greedy with the ticket price increases. Instead they should have promoted the games as family entertainment with inexpensive tickets on the upper east side in order to help sell out the stadium.
    Attendance dropped a few thousand or less? Forge also could be drawing fans from the west GTA. I find myself interested in the cpl more than MLS but still like both.

 

 

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