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  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    The downfall of the draft just emphasizes the importance of fixing or seeing results from the academy.

    We canít count on acquiring every player on our roster in the open market.
    I think more has to be made of the fact that there are alot of GTA players that are falling through the cracks, and TFC Academy is not seen as the premiere development vehicle in this region. I know this region volume-wise is massive, but 4 players that never came up through the academy are in this draft? Is the team not doing enough outreach, not the best coaches? Is the academy vs. residency program a concern? Why do people choose other development paths, and what is the team doing about that gap?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red I View Post
    I think more has to be made of the fact that there are alot of GTA players that are falling through the cracks, and TFC Academy is not seen as the premiere development vehicle in this region. I know this region volume-wise is massive, but 4 players that never came up through the academy are in this draft? Is the team not doing enough outreach, not the best coaches? Is the academy vs. residency program a concern? Why do people choose other development paths, and what is the team doing about that gap?
    I think the issue comes down to population size and geographic size of the GTHA region. Not every star academy player is going to have an interest in attending the academy (i.e. distance of home to the training ground). They may also have other priorities or develop later. Even Shaffleburg is an example of this. He's considered homegrown, but did most of his development elsewhere. A large majority of the youth national teams are made up of TFC products. I think we're doing alright.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red I View Post
    I think more has to be made of the fact that there are alot of GTA players that are falling through the cracks, and TFC Academy is not seen as the premiere development vehicle in this region. I know this region volume-wise is massive, but 4 players that never came up through the academy are in this draft? Is the team not doing enough outreach, not the best coaches? Is the academy vs. residency program a concern? Why do people choose other development paths, and what is the team doing about that gap?
    I don’t know where to start here, first of all with MLS Academies in place any player in the Academy will not go into the draft they are already property of in this case TFC so you will never see them in the draft. The college draft has basically become for players not with any MLS Academy. Therefore , of course all these local Canadian players just drafted were not TFC Academy players if they were they would not be in the college draft. Moreover, there will always be players outside of these academies who make MLS also. There are players playing for some top teams in the world that never went through a top pro Academy but in the end still make it, it happens. TFC Academy is not perfect and can improve but there will always be players that they miss or are even cut that still might make it as a pro either in MLS or even in bigger leagues.

  4. #1024
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    From what I understand, a lot of toes were stepped on when TFC entered the scene and there was (and still is) a lot of grassroots politics involved as well. I remember there being a discussion of someone bringing their kid to a TFC talent evaluation camp and the club couldn't even do that right. I figure we're still another 5-7 years out from seeing Academy prospects improving the first team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoccMan2 View Post
    I don’t know where to start here, first of all with MLS Academies in place any player in the Academy will not go into the draft they are already property of in this case TFC so you will never see them in the draft. The college draft has basically become for players not with any MLS Academy. Therefore , of course all these local Canadian players just drafted were not TFC Academy players if they were they would not be in the college draft. Moreover, there will always be players outside of these academies who make MLS also. There are players playing for some top teams in the world that never went through a top pro Academy but in the end still make it, it happens. TFC Academy is not perfect and can improve but there will always be players that they miss or are even cut that still might make it as a pro either in MLS or even in bigger leagues.
    That is true, if you are brought into the academy, you wouldn't be in the draft, like Chapman, even though he went the NCAA route. Still, he was only one out of a couple of players that could have at least went to the academy to develop, and then go to NCAA, and still be counted as a homegrown if TFC wanted to pick them back up, like Chapman. These Vaughn and Sigma players that do well in NCAA, they could also go the academy route, but choose not to. I would like to know why and if the academy is at least making efforts to close the gap. I'm sure they are, but again, would love to know the reasons and what they are doing about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoccMan2 View Post
    I don’t know where to start here, first of all with MLS Academies in place any player in the Academy will not go into the draft they are already property of in this case TFC so you will never see them in the draft. The college draft has basically become for players not with any MLS Academy. Therefore , of course all these local Canadian players just drafted were not TFC Academy players if they were they would not be in the college draft. Moreover, there will always be players outside of these academies who make MLS also. There are players playing for some top teams in the world that never went through a top pro Academy but in the end still make it, it happens. TFC Academy is not perfect and can improve but there will always be players that they miss or are even cut that still might make it as a pro either in MLS or even in bigger leagues.
    But isnít the larger picture here that we are just not producing players, have demonstrated a very limited commitment to providing first team minutes, and in certain circumstances have cut loose good talent?

    It seems you have a better chance of a pro career trying your luck outside of TFCA. We really have no good examples to point to for someone who has to be sold on the merits of playing for the academy here. We havenít produced a single star or starter. There are kids or unestablished players that look promising but nothing concrete.

  7. #1027
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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    From what I understand, a lot of toes were stepped on when TFC entered the scene and there was (and still is) a lot of grassroots politics involved as well. I remember there being a discussion of someone bringing their kid to a TFC talent evaluation camp and the club couldn't even do that right. I figure we're still another 5-7 years out from seeing Academy prospects improving the first team.
    The Mo Johnston years did a lot of damage but more recently Manning has made it a goal to set things right. For example, TFC now pays "solidarity payments" for players acquired from other clubs. Most of these negative stories (and the affected players) are from a few years ago.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    But isn’t the larger picture here that we are just not producing players, have demonstrated a very limited commitment to providing first team minutes, and in certain circumstances have cut loose good talent?

    It seems you have a better chance of a pro career trying your luck outside of TFCA. We really have no good examples to point to for someone who has to be sold on the merits of playing for the academy here. We haven’t produced a single star or starter. There are kids or unestablished players that look promising but nothing concrete.
    What are you talking about?

    Jonathan Osorio
    Signed with TFC academy 2012
    Graduated to first team 2013
    Plays with the CMNT

    Makes in Canadian dollars more than a million bucks a year.

    You say no kid would want to be like Osorio?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The Mo Johnston years did a lot of damage but more recently Manning has made it a goal to set things right. For example, TFC now pays "solidarity payments" for players acquired from other clubs. Most of these negative stories (and the affected players) are from a few years ago.

    solidarity payments

    Never heard of it, please explain how this works

  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    What are you talking about?

    Jonathan Osorio
    Signed with TFC academy 2012
    Graduated to first team 2013
    Plays with the CMNT

    Makes in Canadian dollars more than a million bucks a year.

    You say no kid would want to be like Osorio?
    Osorio is not an academy player and formally credits his time in Uruguay (not TFCA) for his career as a professional footballer.

    Why people continue to bring this up as an example is beyond me. Do you really think the minuscule amount of time he spent with TFCA provides a compelling argument?

    Why people continue to cite this as an example is beyond me.

    Edit: to further my point. He started training with the academy in fall of 2012, then caught on with the first team in pre-season 2013. 4 months with the academy, total. He played the entire CSL season in 2012 with SC Toronto, not TFCA.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 01-10-2020 at 02:44 PM.

  11. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.Ronaldo View Post
    solidarity payments

    Never heard of it, please explain how this works
    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/...arity-payments

    It is basically a compensation payment to academies who were responsible for the development of players who are eventually sold.

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    The Benezet situation isn't sitting well with me. He had a lot of quality and gelled really well with the team. More importantly, he wanted to play here. I feel we could use a player like this. I hope our lousy management can find a way to bring him into the fold. Hopefully they can agree on some form of salary structure. That guy delivered when he was on the field. I don't want this to be a dark spot on management....

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    Rollins saying TFC are trying to move Bono to make space for a Gressel trade

    https://twitter.com/24thminute/statu...587467776?s=19

  14. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red I View Post
    These Vaughn and Sigma players that do well in NCAA, they could also go the academy route, but choose not to. I would like to know why
    Chance to move abroad, possibly get some free education, and to experience U.S college life would be attractive to certain people. Also, having some kind of college degree is at least something and then do MLS. Not like they rake in the cash when they sign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
    The Benezet situation isn't sitting well with me. He had a lot of quality and gelled really well with the team. More importantly, he wanted to play here. I feel we could use a player like this. I hope our lousy management can find a way to bring him into the fold. Hopefully they can agree on some form of salary structure. That guy delivered when he was on the field. I don't want this to be a dark spot on management....
    Is he worth a DP slot? Toronto FC as an MLS franchise has to manage their resources, especially when it comes to DP slots.

  16. #1036
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Osorio is not an academy player and formally credits his time in Uruguay (not TFCA) for his career as a professional footballer.

    Why people continue to bring this up as an example is beyond me. Do you really think the minuscule amount of time he spent with TFCA provides a compelling argument?

    Why people continue to cite this as an example is beyond me.

    Edit: to further my point. He started training with the academy in fall of 2012, then caught on with the first team in pre-season 2013. 4 months with the academy, total. He played the entire CSL season in 2012 with SC Toronto, not TFCA.
    The discussion was about TFC academy picking up players from other academies and teams. I think it's completely relevant to this particular discussion.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 01-10-2020 at 09:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckistan View Post
    The Benezet situation isn't sitting well with me. He had a lot of quality and gelled really well with the team. More importantly, he wanted to play here. I feel we could use a player like this. I hope our lousy management can find a way to bring him into the fold. Hopefully they can agree on some form of salary structure. That guy delivered when he was on the field. I don't want this to be a dark spot on management....
    Our Ďlousy managementí that has been to 3 MLS Cup Finals in 4 years would never pay DP or TAM money for Benezet and he wonít take a deal to that keeps him under the salary budget.

  18. #1038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Rollins saying TFC are trying to move Bono to make space for a Gressel trade

    https://twitter.com/24thminute/statu...587467776?s=19
    That is interesting. Gressel got roasted for ball watching on Deleon's goal. That 1 on 4 beauty wasnít so much fun if you were one of the four.

    If he gets move, it's because of that goal, I swear to god.
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

  19. #1039
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    But isn’t the larger picture here that we are just not producing players....
    We did not produce players that would be in these draft years. Mostly because the past regimes were crud but also because they wouldn't care about a player if they were not in the academy.


    BTW, TFC today trumpeted an academy kid going to Maryland next year - tells you how all this has changed. IF they can start marketing the academy as a place to go to then get into Uni (much like Sigma has done), then you will start to see ex TFC kids drafted. But that's an intentional thing TFC didn't start until recently.


    Most importantly, as stated before all this talk, the draft / US college is not a good place to find talent anymore. Maybe...maybe...3 kids a season out of that system are playing in MLS 3 years later. That is an horrendously bad outcome.

  20. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    That is interesting. Gressel got roasted for ball watching on Deleon's goal. That 1 on 4 beauty wasn’t so much fun if you were one of the four.

    If he gets move, it's because of that goal, I swear to god.
    Scuttlebutt out of Atlanta is he wanted higher wages then Atlanta wanted to pay. I like Gressel because he is (usually) defensive minded for a winger, which is what we need in a 4-3-3 - but this move would probably means Laryea goes down the depth chart.

  21. #1041
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    Gressel would be fantastic!!

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    Never mind. KJ has just shot a massive dart to this rumor.

    https://twitter.com/KristianJack/sta...049468928?s=19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Never mind. KJ has just shot a massive dart to this rumor.

    https://twitter.com/KristianJack/sta...049468928?s=19
    It interesting, you have one person saying that something is going on and another saying no. Guess we will see.

    The Reds currently have 24 players on the roster, a little shorthanded, 6 spots to fill.

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

  24. #1044
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The discussion was about TFC academy picking up players from other academies and teams. I think it's completely relevant to this particular discussion.
    No, itís really not that at all. The context is our academy producing players and providing good training so we donít have to rely on free agency and the open market.

    In citing someone who was essentially housed out side the first team for 4 months and then went on and had a great career, it really does nothing to tell a youth player that playing for TFCA for a period of years will help them develop the skills to be the best pro player they can.

    Best examples right now are Fraser and maybe Shaffelburg. But again, we need to see this through and give these guys enough time to realize their potential.

  25. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    We did not produce players that would be in these draft years. Mostly because the past regimes were crud but also because they wouldn't care about a player if they were not in the academy.


    BTW, TFC today trumpeted an academy kid going to Maryland next year - tells you how all this has changed. IF they can start marketing the academy as a place to go to then get into Uni (much like Sigma has done), then you will start to see ex TFC kids drafted. But that's an intentional thing TFC didn't start until recently.


    Most importantly, as stated before all this talk, the draft / US college is not a good place to find talent anymore. Maybe...maybe...3 kids a season out of that system are playing in MLS 3 years later. That is an horrendously bad outcome.
    I donít disagree with anything youíve written here. Not my expectation that weíd place anyone in this yearís draft per say but you make a good point about having university as a pathway in the absence of further pro opportunities... itís a start.

    I think many MLS teams are not great at developing talent (not just a TFC challenge). Because weíre successful (feels strange to write that after the early years) itís even harder for us to find the kids opportunities in the first team. Easier to play youth when you have low expectations or if you donít have a bunch of high priced talent in front of you.

    But we still need to find a way to improve. Not because you can point to a ton of MLS teams that are great at this (itís really only RBNY and FCD) but because itís clearly the direction things are going.

  26. #1046
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza_55 View Post
    Our Ďlousy managementí that has been to 3 MLS Cup Finals in 4 years would never pay DP or TAM money for Benezet and he wonít take a deal to that keeps him under the salary budget.
    Say what you want, he is a very good player. It's unfortunate that money is the reason he won't be back. But he's worth more that what TFC offered I'm sure.

  27. #1047
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    The one roster item nobody on here is discussing yet but that all the pundits seem to be is


    where does Pozuelo play with Jozy?

  28. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    It interesting, you have one person saying that something is going on and another saying no. Guess we will see.
    KJ uses stronger language and is the more reputable guy, if we're being honest. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though, Gressel would fit perfectly and I don't care for Bono.



    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The one roster item nobody on here is discussing yet but that all the pundits seem to be is


    where does Pozuelo play with Jozy?

    Will certainly depend on who TFC land as DP. Poz is a midfielder and will play there if there's multiple scoring options on the pitch.

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    Upon reflection, Rollins is being played by someone. Bono is worth a tiny fraction of Gressel, and he may have negative value given his contract. Bono isn’t even a component of a deal for Gressel, he would be a throw in. Gressel is moving for million or more in TAM.

    Also Gressel has been quoted multiple times about his desire to become USMNT eligible for 2022, so he isn’t likely to want to leave the US.

    That is a nuts rumour, whose purpose is most likely to pump up Bono's perceived value in other discussions.
    Last edited by ensco; 01-11-2020 at 09:47 AM.
    ďWhat the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.Ē

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    I think the Bono element was that they were trying to move him anywhere to open cap space not that it was a Bono for Gressel deal.

 

 

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