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  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    Giovinco isn't coming back, get over it. Duane Rollins said they are far apart on money.

    I'd trade Delgado if you get back a bunch of tam and could bring back benezet with the money or a similar player. Fraser deserves to play more and I wouldn't mind playing Okello a few games to see what he can offer.
    Tough decision all around. They need to demonstrate more of a commitment to their academy players if they really want to get the most of that pathway. Yet, we made the finals last year doing what we normally do, so how much do you really want to change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Tough decision all around. They need to demonstrate more of a commitment to their academy players if they really want to get the most of that pathway. Yet, we made the finals last year doing what we normally do, so how much do you really want to change?
    Agreed, look at the Hamilton plus International Spot for Mullins trade.

    We gave up the more valuable asset plus an international spot for Mullins. Going into the trade, Mullins (27) put up 1 goal in 35 and Hamilton (23) put up 8 in 34 since 2018. But Hamilton was inconsistent and Mullins had more than 100 MLS games to his belt, basically double Hamilton.

    They could have given Akinola (19) the opportunity to step up (2 in 17 since 2018), but decided they'd rather pay a premium so that they wouldn't have to. He made the bench just 3 times in 23 matches after Mullins joined, playing 19 minutes against Ottawa only.

    Ayo has 300 minutes of top flight football under his belt. For a guy with obvious talent, potential and a decent workrate that is nothing. He barely even played for TFC II this season.

    What's the message in all of this? If we don't want to deal with the growing pains of the academy guy in front of you, we'll trade him for an unproductive journeyman coming off of knee surgery instead of giving you a shot. Oh, and we'll give up an asset worth decent GAM to do it.

    Sure we made the finals, but was playing Mullins over Hamilton/Akinola really the difference? In ~650 minutes each, Mullins scored 3 goals to Hamilton's 5 for the club this year.

    The club turned this vague opportunity to show a commitment to their player pathway into a clear rejection of it.
    Last edited by portu; 12-23-2019 at 11:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Agreed, look at the Hamilton plus International Spot for Mullins trade.

    We gave up the more valuable asset plus an international spot for Mullins. Going into the trade, Mullins (27) put up 1 goal in 35 and Hamilton (23) put up 8 in 34 since 2018. But Hamilton was inconsistent and Mullins had more than 100 MLS games to his belt, basically double Hamilton.

    They could have given Akinola (19) the opportunity to step up (2 in 17 since 2018), but decided they'd rather pay a premium so that they wouldn't have to. We all saw Akinola this season, the kid didn't look half bad. But he made the bench 3 times in 23 matches after Mullins joined, playing 19 minutes against Ottawa only.

    Ayo has 300 minutes of top flight football under his belt. For a guy with obvious talent, potential and a decent workrate that is nothing. He barely even played for TFC II this season.

    What's the message in all of this? If we don't want to deal with the growing pains of the academy guy in front of you, we'll trade him for an unproductive journeyman coming off of knee surgery instead of giving you a shot. Oh, and we'll give up an asset worth decent GAM to do it.

    Sure we made the finals, but was playing Mullins over Hamilton/Akinola really the difference? In ~650 minutes Mullins managed 3 goals to Hamilton's 5 for the club this year.

    This club turned this vague opportunity to show a commitment to their player pathway into a clear rejection of it.
    Which is again why we need to start utilizing loans more.

  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Tough decision all around. They need to demonstrate more of a commitment to their academy players if they really want to get the most of that pathway. Yet, we made the finals last year doing what we normally do, so how much do you really want to change?
    The 2017 roster consisted of 4 developed from scratch players - Osorio, Hamilton, Chapman & Morgan. All the rest were bought, traded for or drafted. That team was built through acquisitions. 2019 was slightly better with Shaff & Fraser getting minutes while Hamilton was traded out.

    This approach of building a team through acquisitions is, in the long term, unsustainable - this is really more reflective of how bad our academy was.

    Things may change as we keep hearing the academy is very good.

    But I have one caution note - every MLS team has its eye on 3 to 4 of its youth / academy products at the beginning of the season - most of those players are not playing in MLS within 3 years. The jump is big. And I say it again, we played our kids more then most teams did last year - what we don't do is play them at crunch time, but then nobody but NYRB really has done that consistently.

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    I have been thinking like many of you have who is TFC going to get with the DP slot?
    The way I have tried to figure this question out I have tried to analyze it from a monetary standpoint for TFC.
    As it stands right now, the lower east is sold out the upper west is sold out the lower west is sold out the supporters section is sold out. All sold out with the maximum allowable season seat holders the league allows.
    the league mandates that some seats are left unsold and must be available for game day.
    The only seats that are not sold out are the upper east side. If TFC is averaging 26k-27k per game and capacity is 32K that means 5k-6k seats are not sold each game. pretty much all on the upper east side.
    6000 empty seats X 17 games = 100,000 unsold seats per year. I think the price is around $65/seat in this section. (the lower seats will be sold already this equates to 25% of the uppper east seats). $65 is around $50 USD. this equates to a maximum increase in revenue of $5M USD/yr over current revenue.
    So you take Mario Balotelli around $10M USD /year if TFC signs him they would lose at a minimum $5M USD /yr to a maximum of $10M USD/yr if he did not put an extra butt in the seats.
    Giovinco at $5M/yr even if he sells you out every game you did not make a cent of profit from his signing and you stand to lose $5M USD/yr if he puts no extra seats in the stands.
    If I'm TFC I look for a Diego Rossi type guy, fills a need and costs $1M USD/ yr
    would pretty much guarantee you 2 playoff games a voyageurs cup victory and guarrantees you will have a really good competitive team.
    and the bonus is he does not really cost you any money, he will most likely draw you an extra 20,000 in yearly attendance and even if he draws half that he only cost you 0.5M USD/yr
    not a big risk. very good risk/reward type signing. benezet was not quite that guy, not quite good enough

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The 2017 roster consisted of 4 developed from scratch players - Osorio, Hamilton, Chapman & Morgan. All the rest were bought, traded for or drafted. That team was built through acquisitions. 2019 was slightly better with Shaff & Fraser getting minutes while Hamilton was traded out.

    This approach of building a team through acquisitions is, in the long term, unsustainable - this is really more reflective of how bad our academy was.

    Things may change as we keep hearing the academy is very good.

    But I have one caution note - every MLS team has its eye on 3 to 4 of its youth / academy products at the beginning of the season - most of those players are not playing in MLS within 3 years. The jump is big. And I say it again, we played our kids more then most teams did last year - what we don't do is play them at crunch time, but then nobody but NYRB really has done that consistently.
    Can you link those 'play your kids' stats if you have them on hand? I know they're out there and I know you're right about their conclusions, but can't seem to find them. Feel like I saw it on Twitter or maybe an MLS article at some point. Would be interesting to look at again.

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    According to this article

    https://www.americansocceranalysis.c...ams-win-in-mls


    we were 6th in lowest average age in 2018


    I'm trying to find that MLS article that detailed us against other teams - I too vaguely remember something, from Doyle.

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    My worry with Delgado leaving is we don't have anyone on the roster like him, other than maybe Okello, who I still don't think has even played for the senior side? Nobody else has MD's defensive range and endurance which is why he played more minutes than any other red in MLS this year despite his inconsistent offensive displays

    Sure it's one less midfielder for Fraser to go up against for minutes, but Fraser and Delgado are also completely different players. I think it's better for everyone if Fraser gets loaned to a team where he should be an everyday starter (granted that's the trickiest part) while we keep Delgado to plug up holes in midfield and have room to finally give Okello some minutes when Delgado or other mids are injured

    To add: Maybe the braintrust thinks Bradley, Oso, and a Pozuelo who's actually had an offseason makes for a midfield that's good enough defensively, and they've deemed Delgado surplus to requirements..I have my doubts about those 3 together defensively but they are three of our highest paid (and tbh best) players, so I get wanting to start them all

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavemTFC View Post
    My worry with Delgado leaving is we don't have anyone on the roster like him, other than maybe Okello, who I still don't think has even played for the senior side? Nobody else has MD's defensive range and endurance which is why he played more minutes than any other red in MLS this year despite his inconsistent offensive displays

    Sure it's one less midfielder for Fraser to go up against for minutes, but Fraser and Delgado are also completely different players. I think it's better for everyone if Fraser gets loaned to a team where he should be an everyday starter (granted that's the trickiest part) while we keep Delgado to plug up holes in midfield and have room to finally give Okello some minutes when Delgado or other mids are injured

    To add: Maybe the braintrust thinks Bradley, Oso, and a Pozuelo who's actually had an offseason makes for a midfield that's good enough defensively, and they've deemed Delgado surplus to requirements..I have my doubts about those 3 together defensively but they are three of our highest paid (and tbh best) players, so I get wanting to start them all
    I'd like to see a double pivot with Fraser and Bradley with pozuelo free to roam wherever. Okello played vs the fury and looked like a beast. He has the size of a CB it's bizarre to watch him tower over guys in the midfield. I have a feeling if Okello is decent he will have a lot of suitors in Europe. I wonder if he could end up a CB like Joel matip.

    I don't see the need to keep both Osorio and Delgado. If Delgado lets you keep benezet then you should pull the trigger.

    Auro-omar-mavinga-morrow
    ----------fraser---bradley------
    Gallardo-pozuelo-dp(Bruma?)
    --------------jozy---------------

    Osorio, benezet, Ciman, laryea, endoh, Mullens, Okello.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    According to this article

    https://www.americansocceranalysis.c...ams-win-in-mls


    we were 6th in lowest average age in 2018


    I'm trying to find that MLS article that detailed us against other teams - I too vaguely remember something, from Doyle.
    Cheers! I think remember Doyle, maybe Parchman?, as well.

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    When you talk about players that didn’t do well for TFC or other MLS teams foreign players, most of the times they go back to Europe or South America or wherever and a lot of these guys have not done well wherever they have gone either so in the end you just wonder if they were just not good anymore regardless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The 2017 roster consisted of 4 developed from scratch players - Osorio, Hamilton, Chapman & Morgan. All the rest were bought, traded for or drafted. That team was built through acquisitions. 2019 was slightly better with Shaff & Fraser getting minutes while Hamilton was traded out.
    Osorio was groomed in Uruguay and essentially walked onto a really bad TFC team where he immediately contributed as one of our better players. I find it hard to give TFC any credit for that from a development standpoint. The other 2017 players listed all had less than 500 minutes in league play and that was with a major injury bug mid season. Hamilton has only 142 minutes in league play for 2017. Maybe CCL and V’s Cup bring those totals up but it hardly demonstrates any sort of consistency.

    I’ll use Shaffelburg as an example of how we’re doing things wrong. He comes in and does a great job in a pinch. Clearly not ready to start every game but trending positively. Few acquisitions later he’s further down the depth chart. Not a big deal but rather than find a way to get him in as an odd late game sub he’s back to getting all his minutes in USL 1. He needs MLS minutes to get better. And he needs some sort of time throughout the season (no matter how small).

    I think the aura of older NCAA players lives on in this league even if that’s no longer a true development pathway. Coaches underestimate the rate of improvement possible with younger guys if you do things right. The approach MLS teams take now is far too impatient.

    But again, certain teams are in a better position to do this than others. Not sure anyone would be receptive to the pain of developing a bunch of prospects.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Not sure anyone would be receptive to the pain of developing a bunch of prospects.
    It depends. Like you said there's a difference between making Shaff a starter and spotting him the odd game. Likewise, I'm not quite sure we'd all be crying foul (or seeing a massive difference on the pitch) if Akinola were playing in place of Mullins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I’ll use Shaffelburg as an example of how we’re doing things wrong. He comes in and does a great job in a pinch. Clearly not ready to start every game but trending positively. Few acquisitions later he’s further down the depth chart. Not a big deal but rather than find a way to get him in as an odd late game sub he’s back to getting all his minutes in USL 1. He needs MLS minutes to get better. And he needs some sort of time throughout the season (no matter how small).
    And some of those games where Shaffelburg didn't even make the bench, Pozuelo was playing left wing... A couple of games I felt we really could have used a burst of late speed, but Shaff wasn't even a sub to provide that option.

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    Thus begins the annual "If they are on the Christmas card, can they really trade them?" discussion


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    Is all the Delgado speculation just based on his post? Just curious if I missed something else.

    If it’s just his post I think people are looking into it too much. He played the most minutes for us didn’t he? He’s also under contract and in what scenario does Curtis tell him he’s being shopped around which he then turns around and posts about cryptically? Just doesn’t make sense. Was probably referring to something else in his private life, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    I have been thinking like many of you have who is TFC going to get with the DP slot?
    The way I have tried to figure this question out I have tried to analyze it from a monetary standpoint for TFC.
    As it stands right now, the lower east is sold out the upper west is sold out the lower west is sold out the supporters section is sold out. All sold out with the maximum allowable season seat holders the league allows.
    the league mandates that some seats are left unsold and must be available for game day.
    The only seats that are not sold out are the upper east side. If TFC is averaging 26k-27k per game and capacity is 32K that means 5k-6k seats are not sold each game. pretty much all on the upper east side.
    6000 empty seats X 17 games = 100,000 unsold seats per year. I think the price is around $65/seat in this section. (the lower seats will be sold already this equates to 25% of the uppper east seats). $65 is around $50 USD. this equates to a maximum increase in revenue of $5M USD/yr over current revenue.
    So you take Mario Balotelli around $10M USD /year if TFC signs him they would lose at a minimum $5M USD /yr to a maximum of $10M USD/yr if he did not put an extra butt in the seats.
    Giovinco at $5M/yr even if he sells you out every game you did not make a cent of profit from his signing and you stand to lose $5M USD/yr if he puts no extra seats in the stands.
    If I'm TFC I look for a Diego Rossi type guy, fills a need and costs $1M USD/ yr
    would pretty much guarantee you 2 playoff games a voyageurs cup victory and guarrantees you will have a really good competitive team.
    and the bonus is he does not really cost you any money, he will most likely draw you an extra 20,000 in yearly attendance and even if he draws half that he only cost you 0.5M USD/yr
    not a big risk. very good risk/reward type signing. benezet was not quite that guy, not quite good enough
    for something to do I look at tfc virtual venue to see how many season seats were left for sale
    200 seats total on west side , maybe 50 left of lower east side

    here is where it gets interesting:
    upper east side not many seats available, especially the higher rows
    are these seats all sold? if so bmo is going to be packed next year
    or are these seats not for sale as season seats?

    #curious

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stress View Post
    Is all the Delgado speculation just based on his post? Just curious if I missed something else.

    If it’s just his post I think people are looking into it too much. He played the most minutes for us didn’t he? He’s also under contract and in what scenario does Curtis tell him he’s being shopped around which he then turns around and posts about cryptically? Just doesn’t make sense. Was probably referring to something else in his private life, no?
    His post, but also just trying to figure out if we have to make some moves, what are the most likely options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    for something to do I look at tfc virtual venue to see how many season seats were left for sale
    200 seats total on west side , maybe 50 left of lower east side

    here is where it gets interesting:
    upper east side not many seats available, especially the higher rows
    are these seats all sold? if so bmo is going to be packed next year
    or are these seats not for sale as season seats?

    #curious
    Don't be fooled by what's available on the virtual map, they make it seem like most of them are sold out which creates a fake demand, even the Argos do this.

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    Apparently we bid on Olivier Giroud according to L'Équipe: https://t.co/P5Ok23RufK

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuku View Post
    Apparently we bid on Olivier Giroud according to L'Équipe: https://t.co/P5Ok23RufK
    I could see this. Giroud has been getting more minutes for France because Mbappé is hurt, but realistically, how much is he going to play internationally anymore?

    He makes no sense for us unless Altidore is sold. Galaxy make a ton of sense for him.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    I could see him maybe in Montréal as well.

    All the previous Napoli/Mertens talk made me think perhaps Callejón?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    Don't be fooled by what's available on the virtual map, they make it seem like most of them are sold out which creates a fake demand, even the Argos do this.
    yes marketing strategy all the way. i found resale tickets on Ticketmaster for all games for 50% off face value!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMOTFCBSFROMFO View Post
    yes marketing strategy all the way. i found resale tickets on Ticketmaster for all games for 50% off face value!!!!
    Thanks for the input guys.
    I’m trying to determine what makes sense for TFC to spend on a dp

    My guess is max $2M USD

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    Quote Originally Posted by BritSOL View Post

    Maybe it was just a smokescreen but he is not in his early 30’s. That would be pretty crazy..would love to see Poz, Jozy and him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    Maybe it was just a smokescreen but he is not in his early 30’s. That would be pretty crazy..would love to see Poz, Jozy and him.
    The guy in his early 30s is just one of 3-4 targets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BritSOL View Post
    Maybe this is legit? Don't know how I feel about this haven't really followed him much, but was high on him coming up. Would be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    Thanks for the input guys.
    I’m trying to determine what makes sense for TFC to spend on a dp

    My guess is max $2M USD
    No way they spend only that amount. It's a waste of a DP slot when you could get a player for $1.5m under TAM. They'll spend whatever amount is necessary to fulfill the position requirements with the best talent willing and available to come.

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    Unless we go in for $10 million +, I can't see this happening - PSV taking a loss on a player would be shocking.

 

 

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