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  1. #301
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    Any idiot knows that in every season games come up that the chances of getting a win are greater in game A than game B, Houston was a game A where the chances of getting a win was a greater, but points were thrown away by the Vanney brain fart! All this does now is put even greater pressure on this team to get points in their remaining games now, added pressure you don’t need to put on your team if you can avoid it. Sure there is always pressure to win but now for example in the next home game versus Cincinnati there will be even more pressure to win than there would have been before . Moreover, let’s face it with this new ridiculous playoff format being the 7th. seed is almost like not making the playoffs at all because you will never have a home game by finishing 7th. which will suck for the fans. Furthermore, we have better chances buying the winning lottery ticket than a 7th. seed going to the MLS Cup.

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    I think people are overemphasising home field advantage in a one & done cup playoff sytem. Yes, you'd rather be at home but grinding out results away is a skillset in and of itself.

    See Portland @ LAFC in the US Open a couple of weeks ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I think people are overemphasising home field advantage in a one & done cup playoff sytem. Yes, you'd rather be at home but grinding out results away is a skillset in and of itself.

    See Portland @ LAFC in the US Open a couple of weeks ago.
    Home advantage is HUGE in the MLS. There are always exceptions to the rule of course. It's Vanney's job to make sure that we have playoff action in Toronto, not just to limp into the playoffs. We're not satisfied with just making the playoffs (our first playoff experience was a bad away loss to Montreal - no playoff action in Toronto). If Vanney fails at this objective he'll have to find himself another job - maybe a less ambitious club/fan base would be happy with him.

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    The major crime that was made in this Houston game is playing with momentum. After the two good wins that had this 3rd game in a week was against a team that was equally tired and playing their 3rd game also. We were at home and had most of our top players fit save Poz. Houston have a terrible away record...we should have had the best players on and expected a lead at half-time - then start resting players. I had started to believe that with the team we had we could have a run for first in the East. We had two weeks after with only one game each week. The most important thing we needed was to maintain that momentum. That was thrown away in manner that destroys confidence in the squad. It also breaks faith with the fans...who pay good money to see the best players - did they tell you in advance it was going to be the B squad..offer you a rebate...we expected to see a contest with the best players available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton_Red View Post
    The major crime that was made in this Houston game is playing with momentum. After the two good wins that had this 3rd game in a week was against a team that was equally tired and playing their 3rd game also. We were at home and had most of our top players fit save Poz. Houston have a terrible away record...we should have had the best players on and expected a lead at half-time - then start resting players. I had started to believe that with the team we had we could have a run for first in the East. We had two weeks after with only one game each week. The most important thing we needed was to maintain that momentum. That was thrown away in manner that destroys confidence in the squad. It also breaks faith with the fans...who pay good money to see the best players - did they tell you in advance it was going to be the B squad..offer you a rebate...we expected to see a contest with the best players available.
    The first part of this is how I feel. Donít risk momentum and confidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I think people are overemphasising home field advantage in a one & done cup playoff sytem. Yes, you'd rather be at home but grinding out results away is a skillset in and of itself.

    See Portland @ LAFC in the US Open a couple of weeks ago.
    Winning 4 games on the road in a row is a tall task for any club. Home field advantage is massive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    The first part of this is how I feel. Donít risk momentum and confidence.
    Ditto. The decision felt egg headed.

    And I still question why we went all in on games 1 and 2 and then essentially took game 3 off. Was there not room to find more balance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Ditto. The decision felt egg headed.

    And I still question why we went all in on games 1 and 2 and then essentially took game 3 off. Was there not room to find more balance?
    The first two games were against Eastern conference teams we're directly chasing, with one being our rivalómust-wins; makes sense that we really went for it, in those. Unfortunately, the third game in eight days comes at home, in what feels like 45 degree heat, against a Western conference side; it's a gamble, but if there's a match, of the three, you can afford to lose, it's that one.

    Even if he rested most of the players and left one or two starters in, there would have been people calling that "egg-headed," as it was a losing cause and they (the couple starters), too, could have used the restóI mean, imagine if one of said starters pulled up injured (out for "x" weeks, etc.). I would ask who you felt should have started, that also started the first two games; would be hard to mention anyone, under the circumstances, that wasn't desperately in need of rest, for one reason or another.

    I just feel like this whole thing is being a tad blown out of proportion, and people might be falling victim to their own narratives.

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    I am tired of hearing about the heat and humidity or the artificial turf excuses for losing games, the teams that have beaten TFC were playing in those very same conditions.
    Poor roster decisions by Greg Vanney, I feel Greg has made some very weird substitutions at times.

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    I'm still really pissed about last game even after a few days of cooling off.
    Throwing away momentum and literally giving away free points that majority of us could predict based on the line up.
    The money, the time, the travel, the effort we all put into this team game in and out as supporters just felt like a big slap in the face.
    It wasn't just a one time thing, he's done this many times over the past year or two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derko View Post
    I am tired of hearing about the heat and humidity or the artificial turf excuses for losing games, the teams that have beaten TFC were playing in those very same conditions.
    Poor roster decisions by Greg Vanney, I feel Greg has made some very weird substitutions at times.
    The heat/humidity and artificial turf excuses arenít really the best things to point out here, because they actually do impact team performance.

    If you donít play every game on the slip Ďn slide, and you donít want your players to sustain injuries due to poor surfaces, clearly you arenít going to perform as well as a team that does.

    Same thing goes for heat/humidity. Have you been to Houston? If the team is playing in those conditions normally, that sort of weather is an advantage.

    Itís the same reason a team from a tropical nation isnít going to perform as well in freezing temperatures with a snowstorm, or why altitude is a pretty big advantage in general.

    Itís not the be-all-end-all, and it certainly doesnít determine the results outright, but a team like Houston that constantly plays in conditions only Shrek would find appealing definitely has an advantage playing in those conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    The first two games were against Eastern conference teams we're directly chasing, with one being our rival—must-wins; makes sense that we really went for it, in those. Unfortunately, the third game in eight days comes at home, in what feels like 45 degree heat, against a Western conference side; it's a gamble, but if there's a match, of the three, you can afford to lose, it's that one.

    Even if he rested most of the players and left one or two starters in, there would have been people calling that "egg-headed," as it was a losing cause and they (the couple starters), too, could have used the rest—I mean, imagine if one of said starters pulled up injured (out for "x" weeks, etc.). I would ask who you felt should have started, that also started the first two games; would be hard to mention anyone, under the circumstances, that wasn't desperately in need of rest, for one reason or another.

    I just feel like this whole thing is being a tad blown out of proportion, and people might be falling victim to their own narratives.
    so much truth everywhere in this post....but especially the part I bolded.

    Its really not that difficult to get for any line of thinking that includes logic....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post
    so much truth everywhere in this post....but especially the part I bolded.

    Its really not that difficult to get for any line of thinking that includes logic....
    Sure. But you donít play Fraser alone or not play Gonzalez. He played a lineup that all observers knew would be vulnerable to the counter against a counter attacking team. Not smart. Also, as others have pointed out, he could have used some subs in one of the other games - for example, Chapman is a good possession Player and would have fit in well against the NY RB press.

    I donít think anyone is saying he should not have rotated. But a lot of us are saying he should not have rotated so many at once - and should have protected the back better even if he did.
    Last edited by MightyDM; 07-24-2019 at 02:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Sure. But you donít play Fraser alone or not play Gonzalez. He played a lineup that all observers knew would be vulnerable to the counter against a counter attacking team. Not smart. Also, as others have pointed out, he could have used some subs in one of the other games - for example, Chapman is a good possession Player and would have fit in well against the NY RB press.

    I donít think anyone is saying he should not have rotated. But a lot of us are saying he should not have rotated so many at once - and should have protected the back better even if he did.
    100% Agree - By the way Gonzalez just spend 4 years in Mexico. I think he could handle the heat, not picking on Gonzalez. I like him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Sure. But you donít play Fraser alone or not play Gonzalez. He played a lineup that all observers knew would be vulnerable to the counter against a counter attacking team. Not smart. Also, as others have pointed out, he could have used some subs in one of the other games - for example, Chapman is a good possession Player and would have fit in well against the NY RB press.

    I donít think anyone is saying he should not have rotated. But a lot of us are saying he should not have rotated so many at once - and should have protected the back better even if he did.
    ^Exactly.

    He brought on several stronger parts at the half being down 2-0 (seemingly to save any further embarrassment).

    Why not play conservatively for 45 minutes and then go out to win the game in the second half?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Sure. But you don’t play Fraser alone or not play Gonzalez. He played a lineup that all observers knew would be vulnerable to the counter against a counter attacking team. Not smart. Also, as others have pointed out, he could have used some subs in one of the other games - for example, Chapman is a good possession Player and would have fit in well against the NY RB press.

    I don’t think anyone is saying he should not have rotated. But a lot of us are saying he should not have rotated so many at once - and should have protected the back better even if he did.
    He had 6 points in his pocket against conference competition. This is the whole point imo. Play your strongest squad against the conference teams, and go balls out to get what you need there.
    Had any of the results against MTL or NYRB gone differently, I could accept that he should've taken a different approach v HOU, as an attempt to make those lost points up.
    Though I do expect 3 points again v Cinci this weekend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post
    He had 6 points in his pocket against conference competition. This is the whole point imo. Play your strongest squad against the conference teams, and go balls out to get what you need there.
    Had any of the results against MTL or NYRB gone differently, I could accept that he should've taken a different approach v HOU, as an attempt to make those lost points up.
    Though I do expect 3 points again v Cinci this weekend.
    I think the point isnít that a loss to a Western team is a horrible result given the context (it isnít), but rather that thereís a difference between playing ďballs outĒ with the B-side and losing 3-1 and playing cautiously for a result of some sort.

    If Houston is terrible on the road (and arenít so hot overall), thereís an opportunity to rest players, get backups or kids some playing time, all while not losing in a spectacular fashion.

    Playing a boring match at home isnít ideal, but a draw or small loss is better than losing so badly to a team who hasnít won on the road in ages that you have to sub on the players you were trying to rest.

    We didnít have to give Houston 3 points; DC came here this season, barely even touched the ball or moved it out of their half, and still managed a draw. TFC should be able to do that too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post
    He had 6 points in his pocket against conference competition. This is the whole point imo. Play your strongest squad against the conference teams, and go balls out to get what you need there.
    Had any of the results against MTL or NYRB gone differently, I could accept that he should've taken a different approach v HOU, as an attempt to make those lost points up.
    Though I do expect 3 points again v Cinci this weekend.
    Nobody is stating the points against the east teams werenít more important.

    The criticisms are about tactics, building of momentum, and use of available players. Some of the ďweakĒ players against Houston would be perfectly fine (or entirely substitutable) with a stronger squad around them. That could have been a workable solution this week rather than the all-or-nothing approach to squad rotation we used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    100% Agree - By the way Gonzalez just spend 4 years in Mexico. I think he could handle the heat, not picking on Gonzalez. I like him.
    Gonzalez was injured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme View Post
    Gonzalez was injured.
    And yet still on the subs bench.

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    Okay perhaps it was an oversimplified statement, but it almost always becomes if not an excuse a reason for underperformance, had Vanney played his best available, TFC would have likely won the match.

    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    The heat/humidity and artificial turf excuses arenít really the best things to point out here, because they actually do impact team performance.

    If you donít play every game on the slip Ďn slide, and you donít want your players to sustain injuries due to poor surfaces, clearly you arenít going to perform as well as a team that does.

    Same thing goes for heat/humidity. Have you been to Houston? If the team is playing in those conditions normally, that sort of weather is an advantage.

    Itís the same reason a team from a tropical nation isnít going to perform as well in freezing temperatures with a snowstorm, or why altitude is a pretty big advantage in general.

    Itís not the be-all-end-all, and it certainly doesnít determine the results outright, but a team like Houston that constantly plays in conditions only Shrek would find appealing definitely has an advantage playing in those conditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme View Post
    Gonzalez was injured.
    Gonzalez was not injured. Read the pre-game articles. He had some cramping the previous game, so they wanted to give him a break. Good chance that Vanney could have subbed him on for a bit in the 2nd half. But he had to do all 3 subs early, and focus on attack, in an attempt to save the game after being down 2-0 before the half.

    Plus Vanney's comments after the game didn't make much sense. "We didnít come out with any energy in the first (half). Everything was very stagnate, slow, passive, too soft."

    The main problem from the start was the weak defense (and weak defensive midfield). TFC gave up a goal within 4 minutes. Houston would have bunkered & countered anyway. After the super early goal, they could do that to the extreme while still aiming for a win. Energy and speed don't help much against a bunkering team, especially when you don't have most of your attack force on the field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    I think the point isn’t that a loss to a Western team is a horrible result given the context (it isn’t), but rather that there’s a difference between playing “balls out” with the B-side and losing 3-1 and playing cautiously for a result of some sort.

    If Houston is terrible on the road (and aren’t so hot overall), there’s an opportunity to rest players, get backups or kids some playing time, all while not losing in a spectacular fashion.

    Playing a boring match at home isn’t ideal, but a draw or small loss is better than losing so badly to a team who hasn’t won on the road in ages that you have to sub on the players you were trying to rest.

    We didn’t have to give Houston 3 points; DC came here this season, barely even touched the ball or moved it out of their half, and still managed a draw. TFC should be able to do that too.
    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Nobody is stating the points against the east teams weren’t more important.

    The criticisms are about tactics, building of momentum, and use of available players. Some of the “weak” players against Houston would be perfectly fine (or entirely substitutable) with a stronger squad around them. That could have been a workable solution this week rather than the all-or-nothing approach to squad rotation we used.
    fair enough guys....matter of expectations, I guess.

    I wasn't the least bit surprised to see the line up that went out on Saturday, considering the games played that week and the circumstances that Saturdays game was played in. I mean, I understand that people say "so and so on TFC is used to playing in the heat", but I also think that is easy to say for you and me who only have to drink beer in the stands over 90 minutes. But to the guy who has already logged 180 minutes in the week, those conditions would be a big factor should anything happen to the player.

    Also been stated by some that players who seemed healthy enough to go, may actually not have been.

    Though like stegosaurus, I also failed to see the point of subbing on players who Vanney was trying to rest; it seemed entirely counterintuitive to Vanney's "gameplan" for that day...if you're gonna rest them, then rest them...but that is all I could fault him for personally....

    But again all this come with the assumption that the rested players will be back v Cinci and that we take 3 points there....anything less is unacceptable to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post
    He had 6 points in his pocket against conference competition. This is the whole point imo. Play your strongest squad against the conference teams, and go balls out to get what you need there.
    Had any of the results against MTL or NYRB gone differently, I could accept that he should've taken a different approach v HOU, as an attempt to make those lost points up.
    Though I do expect 3 points again v Cinci this weekend.
    Exactly my stance.

    People keep mentioning momentum. Does anyone think, last year, when we put out a B-side against Houston, during our CL run, that we lost momentum? Hard for me to imagine our starters feeling demoralized by this loss. If anything, it could see them grow in confidence, knowing that they were needed, from the startÖ whilst not getting overconfident, seeing as the few starters subbed in weren't good enough to rescue anythingóperfect mindset, going into another match against an in-conference team (one we're not chasing, mind).

    A few have said Vanney should have rotated the players in the first couple games, but I think this approach fails to respect the fact our opposition in those two games were in decent form, and, again, we're chasing them in the standings; if Vanney tries to go a little more sensible with the line-up, instead of putting out his best side, there would have been a mob after him, should we have dropped points.

    It's worth noting that very few players have been named as preferred starters in any of the games; again, I'd really be curious as to how some of his more vehement critics would have lined us up, considering the form of each opponent, etc. (not being facetious; felt Vanney's choices weren't insane, but you wouldn't have thought, based on the comments hereÖ so, I'd really like to see if I could be proven wrong).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC Tifoso View Post
    fair enough guys....matter of expectations, I guess.

    I wasn't the least bit surprised to see the line up that went out on Saturday, considering the games played that week and the circumstances that Saturdays game was played in. I mean, I understand that people say "so and so on TFC is used to playing in the heat", but I also think that is easy to say for you and me who only have to drink beer in the stands over 90 minutes. But to the guy who has already logged 180 minutes in the week, those conditions would be a big factor should anything happen to the player.

    Also been stated by some that players who seemed healthy enough to go, may actually not have been.

    Though like stegosaurus, I also failed to see the point of subbing on players who Vanney was trying to rest; it seemed entirely counterintuitive to Vanney's "gameplan" for that day...if you're gonna rest them, then rest them...but that is all I could fault him for personally....

    But again all this come with the assumption that the rested players will be back v Cinci and that we take 3 points there....anything less is unacceptable to me.
    Fair enough.

    I will say this: in the broader discussion of whether or not Vanney is the right coach for TFC going forward, this game is getting too much attention.

    Obviously weíre all upset cause it just happened but iíll live and die on what someone can do on average (or what they might be capable of achieving at best) rather than only see the worst days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    Exactly my stance.

    People keep mentioning momentum. Does anyone think, last year, when we put out a B-side against Houston, during our CL run, that we lost momentum? Hard for me to imagine our starters feeling demoralized by this loss. If anything, it could see them grow in confidence, knowing that they were needed, from the startÖ whilst not getting overconfident, seeing as the few starters subbed in weren't good enough to rescue anythingóperfect mindset, going into another match against an in-conference team (one we're not chasing, mind).

    A few have said Vanney should have rotated the players in the first couple games, but I think this approach fails to respect the fact our opposition in those two games were in decent form, and, again, we're chasing them in the standings; if Vanney tries to go a little more sensible with the line-up, instead of putting out his best side, there would have been a mob after him, should we have dropped points.

    It's worth noting that very few players have been named as preferred starters in any of the games; again, I'd really be curious as to how some of his more vehement critics would have lined us up, considering the form of each opponent, etc. (not being facetious; felt Vanney's choices weren't insane, but you wouldn't have thought, based on the comments hereÖ so, I'd really like to see if I could be proven wrong).
    I would have played Gonzalez with Ciman for the Houston game. If that was not possible, then Delgado with Fraser in a ď2Ē. Playing Ciman Zavs and Fraser together was asking for disaster given neither Bradley nor Delgado were on the pitch to provide defensive bite. And unlike the earlier game with a similar lineup, Poz not there to provide control up front. (Marky played that game too).

    This was unfair tho the players who played and was obvious from the start.

    Two other points - some light rotation in the other games ie Chapman against Red Bullís given his quality of possession - was certainly possible to enable some players ie Delgado to play this game.

    I disagree about last year. That Houston game disrespected the league and was the start of our slide in League play. We never recovered.

    I donít think that will be the case this year but.

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    Did we ever find out if something was wrong with Delgado as he wasnít even on the bench?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Did we ever find out if something was wrong with Delgado as he wasn’t even on the bench?
    Pravda report after the game said Delgado had something minor.

    I can't tell if they're underplaying the injury / wear & tear situation before games because they know people are sick of hearing about that. (Or to keep the other team guessing???) And/or if they're overhyping the same topics during/after the games, as excuses. These days there seems to be a very fine line with this team between "almost everybody available" and "almost nobody available."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I would have played Gonzalez with Ciman for the Houston game. If that was not possible, then Delgado with Fraser in a ď2Ē. Playing Ciman Zavs and Fraser together was asking for disaster given neither Bradley nor Delgado were on the pitch to provide defensive bite. And unlike the earlier game with a similar lineup, Poz not there to provide control up front. (Marky played that game too).

    This was unfair tho the players who played and was obvious from the start.

    Two other points - some light rotation in the other games ie Chapman against Red Bullís given his quality of possession - was certainly possible to enable some players ie Delgado to play this game.

    I disagree about last year. That Houston game disrespected the league and was the start of our slide in League play. We never recovered.

    I donít think that will be the case this year but.
    Gonzalez was cramping up, after the last game, and they were monitoring him, going into this, whilst Delgado was, of all the players, the one Vanney described as most spent; I think that'd be a huge gamble, and you always want to avoid starting players you, guaranteed, have to sub out.

    Had high hopes for Chapman, but I've not been a huge fan of his attitude, on the pitch (don't like to be too critical of what a player does in his/her spare time). I don't think Vanney trusts Chapman in what is fair to have called must-win games, and you really can't fault him, based on what we've seen; not ready to give up on Chapman, but he needs to get it together, and fast.

    In fairness, Houston didn't want to reschedule, during our run last year, and that might have been a middle-finger to the league. That said, I think it's clear we put all our eggs into the Champions League basket, where we lost zero momentum, after that Houston match. My point was, when our starters aren't in the line-up, I can't see them too affected by a loss like this, as was proven last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    Gonzalez was cramping up, after the last game, and they were monitoring him, going into this, whilst Delgado was, of all the players, the one Vanney described as most spent; I think that'd be a huge gamble, and you always want to avoid starting players you, guaranteed, have to sub out.

    Had high hopes for Chapman, but I've not been a huge fan of his attitude, on the pitch (don't like to be too critical of what a player does in his/her spare time). I don't think Vanney trusts Chapman in what is fair to have called must-win games, and you really can't fault him, based on what we've seen; not ready to give up on Chapman, but he needs to get it together, and fast.

    In fairness, Houston didn't want to reschedule, during our run last year, and that might have been a middle-finger to the league. That said, I think it's clear we put all our eggs into the Champions League basket, where we lost zero momentum, after that Houston match. My point was, when our starters aren't in the line-up, I can't see them too affected by a loss like this, as was proven last year.
    I figured that was the case with Marky. Thanks!

 

 

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