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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    i figured out how they do it
    Who, the Illuminati?

    Shrek: “Want home draw uhginst Toromto.”
    Garber: “Should we rig the game?”
    Illuminati: “We developed a system called VAR, used specifically to acquire draws against a pitifully awful TFC team that you previously drew against by not even touching the ball!”
    Garber: “Muah ah ah!”

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Who, the Illuminati?

    Shrek: “Want home draw uhginst Toromto.”
    Garber: “Should we rig the game?”
    Illuminati: “We developed a system called VAR, used specifically to acquire draws against a pitifully awful TFC team that you previously drew against by not even touching the ball!”
    Garber: “Muah ah ah!”
    Refute the charge if you think it's untrue, don't mock someone who raises a question.

    FWIW, it's pretty easy to manipulate what gets reviewed and it's even less transparent than the usual refereeing, and if you'd read "the Fix" you'd realize it's not outlandish that MLS could have some manipulation of results. It's happened in some pretty major leagues before and it's not out of the question that it could happen here.

    I'm not sure that's what is happening though because it's too unclear a pattern, plus we have an obvious explanation in the quality of MLS referees. MLS refereeing is pretty poor compared to some other leagues, even if refs get flack everywhere, MLS refs have made some pretty poor decisions.

  3. #93
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    Great point and the boys have made TFC fun again after about twelve months of dire play. Hopefully as players come back they slot into this spirit. Related to that, sad Canada result and interesting the Mark Anthony Kaye substitution. He was off the pace like Ayo and Osorio had been playing well. I hope he comes back and slots in using the wingers to move the ball.

  4. #94
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    Didn't it come out that there was a fix in some TFC champions league games about 9 (ish) years ago?

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme View Post
    Didn't it come out that there was a fix in some TFC champions league games about 9 (ish) years ago?
    There was a fix in a CCL game. It didn't involve TFC but two minor teams.

  6. #96
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    I think this proves the opposite. Instead of matching fixing in MLS the referees are just plain incompetent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Refute the charge if you think it's untrue, don't mock someone who raises a question.

    FWIW, it's pretty easy to manipulate what gets reviewed and it's even less transparent than the usual refereeing, and if you'd read "the Fix" you'd realize it's not outlandish that MLS could have some manipulation of results. It's happened in some pretty major leagues before and it's not out of the question that it could happen here.

    I'm not sure that's what is happening though because it's too unclear a pattern, plus we have an obvious explanation in the quality of MLS referees. MLS refereeing is pretty poor compared to some other leagues, even if refs get flack everywhere, MLS refs have made some pretty poor decisions.
    It wasn’t a question, though. It was a statement.

    It was a clear penalty despite all the other events that occurred.

    I’m aware of how match fixing works and the cases involving football (and other sports). If you look at the books (especially in Asia) you can see there’d be no point in fixing the match, especially when that fix would have to involve an entire team of officials and members of both teams.

    Furthermore, the comment about transparency is false. MLS/PRO have previously spoke to and were critical of poor uses of VAR. If the fix was done through VAR it would have been even more idiotic than just buying players or refs, because now you need to buy MLS and PRO in general so they don’t talk about incorrect VAR calls (like the Bwana handball).

    Manipulating VAR to fix games in MLS for a 90+’ draw with no disproportionate betting on the supposed “fix” is the footballing equivalent of flat earth conspiracies.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    It wasn’t a question, though. It was a statement.

    It was a clear penalty despite all the other events that occurred.

    I’m aware of how match fixing works and the cases involving football (and other sports). If you look at the books (especially in Asia) you can see there’d be no point in fixing the match, especially when that fix would have to involve an entire team of officials and members of both teams.

    Furthermore, the comment about transparency is false. MLS/PRO have previously spoke to and were critical of poor uses of VAR. If the fix was done through VAR it would have been even more idiotic than just buying players or refs, because now you need to buy MLS and PRO in general so they don’t talk about incorrect VAR calls (like the Bwana handball).

    Manipulating VAR to fix games in MLS for a 90+’ draw with no disproportionate betting on the supposed “fix” is the footballing equivalent of flat earth conspiracies.
    You state you know how match fixing works. That's an impressive statement.
    How does it work? Give me an example of a technique you could use to fix a match?

    First Illuminati now flat Earth conspiracies.
    Anyone questioning the legitimacy to MLS just be one total whackjob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    You state you know how match fixing works. That's an impressive statement.
    How does it work? Give me an example of a technique you could use to fix a match?

    First Illuminati now flat Earth conspiracies.
    Anyone questioning the legitimacy to MLS just be one total whackjob.
    I’m not going to feed you, but it involves giving people money, and criminal syndicates are usually involved. Given the nation housing TFC, we even have a fine example of football match fixing in our own country.

    Then there’s the logic test: MLS actively seeks to fight against match fixing, employing people and services costing boatloads of money to ensure it, and there’s virtually no gain for MLS to fix matches.

    If you were attempting to fix a match, would you choose a league where match fixing would be both incredibly difficult and expensive, one that deals in USD thereby exposing you to the wrath of the American government?

    People will fix anything — there’s a reason Starcraft got absolutely fucked in Korea when it was the biggest sport after figure skating. That said, the payoff in fixing MLS games in the manner that you suggest simply isn’t worth it economically and therefore makes no sense.
    Last edited by stegosaurus; 07-01-2019 at 10:43 AM. Reason: A word

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    It wasn’t a question, though. It was a statement.

    It was a clear penalty despite all the other events that occurred.
    You seem to have missed the fact that there was a reviewable clear penalty on the other end that was not called.

    It could be incompetence (likely it is).

    But it could also be a fix, in fact that is how matches usually have been fixed. It's not the bogus call that fixes the match, it's the "missed" call that fixes things because it's plausibly deniable.

    So the call on TFC was the correct call in that our defender did a red card offense.

    Missed was the clear foul on our player leading up to that event. Also missed was the penalty when their player charged through ours, in their box, without getting any of the ball. It was called in the broadcast it was so obvious.

    If you get enough of that one-sided mistakes in a match, people can legitimately wonder if they are deliberate "mistakes" instead of terrible refereeing. I still think it's the refereeing quality but I don't blame anyone who thinks that its otherwise.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-01-2019 at 10:46 AM.
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

    Supporting since 2007


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    You seem to have missed the fact that there was a reviewable clear penalty on the other end that was not called.

    It could be incompetence (likely it is).

    But it could also be a fix, in fact that is how matches usually have been fixed. It's not the bogus call that fixes the match, it's the "missed" call that fixes things because it's plausibly deniable.

    So the call on TFC was the correct call in that our defender did a red card offense.

    Missed was the clear foul on our player leading up to that event. Also missed was the penalty when their player charged through ours, in their box, without getting any of the ball. It was called in the broadcast it was so obvious.

    If you get enough of that one-sided mistakes in a match, people can legitimately wonder if they are deliberate "mistakes" instead of terrible refereeing. I still think it's the refereeing quality but I don't blame anyone who thinks that its otherwise.
    Yes, the earth is flat, the moon landings were shot on a soundstage, chemtrails are real, and the flu shot is actually government mind control nanobots.

    No one wonders if matches are fixed based on poor refereeing by a squad of referees who have, time and again, over the course of many years and matches, demonstrated their incompetence.

    I’m not missing anything. It was a penalty. Not calling the other one isn’t a fix, it’s just poor officiating. To even consider it a fix you’d have to make enormous leaps in logic and disregard the reality of how match fixing works.

    Calling it a fix means that at least one of our players was involved, which is insulting and (in this case) idiotic. If it were fixed, there would be real results and it would affect people’s careers and livelihoods — that’s not something you proclaim randomly with no evidence or knowledge.

    My pet conspiracy theory is that we are being forced to bring back USMNT members on incredibly inflated salaries. Is it true? Maybe not. Is there evidence? Sure. Is it accusing someone of a crime that would ruin their career? Nope.

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    Does anybody have a video clip of the non-call on Ayo in the 80th? Unsurprisingly it didn't make the game highlight package.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carbontax View Post
    Does anybody have a video clip of the non-call on Ayo in the 80th? Unsurprisingly it didn't make the game highlight package.
    i think this is it here on Waking The Red.

    https://www.wakingthered.com/2019/6/...world-2019-var

    Don't see how that is not a penalty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    I’m not going to feed you, but it involves giving people money, and criminal syndicates are usually involved. Given the nation housing TFC, we even have a fine example of football match fixing in our own country.

    Then there’s the logic test: MLS actively seeks to fight against match fixing, employing people and services costing boatloads of money to ensure it, and there’s virtually no gain for MLS to fix matches.

    If you were attempting to fix a match, would you choose a league where match fixing would be both incredibly difficult and expensive, one that deals in USD thereby exposing you to the wrath of the American government?

    People will fix anything — there’s a reason Starcraft got absolutely fucked in Korea when it was the biggest sport after figure skating. That said, the payoff in fixing MLS games in the manner that you suggest simply isn’t worth it economically and therefore makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    You seem to have missed the fact that there was a reviewable clear penalty on the other end that was not called.

    It could be incompetence (likely it is).

    But it could also be a fix, in fact that is how matches usually have been fixed. It's not the bogus call that fixes the match, it's the "missed" call that fixes things because it's plausibly deniable.

    So the call on TFC was the correct call in that our defender did a red card offense.

    Missed was the clear foul on our player leading up to that event. Also missed was the penalty when their player charged through ours, in their box, without getting any of the ball. It was called in the broadcast it was so obvious.

    If you get enough of that one-sided mistakes in a match, people can legitimately wonder if they are deliberate "mistakes" instead of terrible refereeing. I still think it's the refereeing quality but I don't blame anyone who thinks that its otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Yes, the earth is flat, the moon landings were shot on a soundstage, chemtrails are real, and the flu shot is actually government mind control nanobots.

    No one wonders if matches are fixed based on poor refereeing by a squad of referees who have, time and again, over the course of many years and matches, demonstrated their incompetence.

    I’m not missing anything. It was a penalty. Not calling the other one isn’t a fix, it’s just poor officiating. To even consider it a fix you’d have to make enormous leaps in logic and disregard the reality of how match fixing works.

    Calling it a fix means that at least one of our players was involved, which is insulting and (in this case) idiotic. If it were fixed, there would be real results and it would affect people’s careers and livelihoods — that’s not something you proclaim randomly with no evidence or knowledge.

    My pet conspiracy theory is that we are being forced to bring back USMNT members on incredibly inflated salaries. Is it true? Maybe not. Is there evidence? Sure. Is it accusing someone of a crime that would ruin their career? Nope.
    Oldtimer is right. Read Declan Hill's book. TFC and Washington don't have to be in on it, and in fact "incompetence" is the best cover for a fix there is.

    I'm not buying into the fix necessarily, but you argue that TFC losing isn't worth it in a previous post yet we know the CSL was worth it. Can't have it both ways either they're big enough to warrant a fix, or they're not.

    I personally lean toward GROSS incompetence, but I won't breezily dismiss the alternative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carbontax View Post
    Does anybody have a video clip of the non-call on Ayo in the 80th? Unsurprisingly it didn't make the game highlight package.

    It made Jozy's twitter.


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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    Oldtimer is right. Read Declan Hill's book. TFC and Washington don't have to be in on it, and in fact "incompetence" is the best cover for a fix there is.

    I'm not buying into the fix necessarily, but you argue that TFC losing isn't worth it in a previous post yet we know the CSL was worth it. Can't have it both ways either they're big enough to warrant a fix, or they're not.

    I personally lean toward GROSS incompetence, but I won't breezily dismiss the alternative.
    I have read it.

    It would cost far more to bribe the center ref, the VAR ref, the rest of the officials, and everyone who looks into these sorts of things at MLS, PRO, and the people they hired to make sure it isn’t happening here, plus bribing our players to commit penalty-worthy fouls in the dying minutes of the game and missing the other chances — than it would to pay off everyone involved in the CSL (which I mentioned above).

    It doesn’t make sense. Like I said, you can fix anything, but this game couldn’t have possibly been fixed if you watched it. You’d have to ignore basic tenets of reality to jump to that conclusion.

    If this ever comes back as being a fixed match, I’ll become an Impact supporter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GerMc View Post
    i think this is it here on Waking The Red.

    https://www.wakingthered.com/2019/6/...world-2019-var

    Don't see how that is not a penalty.
    That would have been a foul in rugby, let alone soccer. it’s not possible for the referee or the VAR to have missed it. Not subtle like POZ hand ball or Deleon possible tiny touch. Blatant and right in front of the referee. Inexplicable.

    Also, if anyone thinks soccer can’t be touched by corruption: FIFA. In this case, all you have to have is a corrupted VAR referee to change odds for betting and make it worthwhile.

    I do not believe it to be the case but this one is astonishing. Up there with the Gilberto goal that the league apologized for annulling. The Laryea non call pretty poor too.
    Last edited by MightyDM; 07-02-2019 at 11:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    That would have been a foul in rugby, let alone soccer. it’s not possible for the referee or the VAR to have missed it. Not subtle like POZ hand ball or Deleon possible tiny touch. Blatant and right in front of the referee. Inexplicable.

    Also, if anyone thinks soccer can’t be touched by corruption: FIFA. In this case, all you have to have is a corrupted VAR referee to change odds for betting and make it worthwhile.

    I do not believe it to be the case but this one is astonishing. Up there with the Gilberto goal that the league apologized for annulling. The Laryea non call pretty poor too.
    No one is saying that soccer hasn’t been touched by corruption. Just that this isn’t a fix and it’s really silly to start claiming everything is fixed because you didn’t get the result you wanted.

    Even in your scenario you can’t simply buy the VAR ref to achieve the fix. In this scenario, you’d absolutely have to buy whoever committed the foul resulting in the final pen or have the prescience that it would happen; you’d also have to buy the centre ref, and probably more just to have it not come out.

    It’s just a matter of Occam’s and Hanlon’s Razor.

    Still waiting to see all the outlandish betting patterns on this game triggering an investigation into the fixing of this match. 🙄

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    No one is saying that soccer hasn’t been touched by corruption. Just that this isn’t a fix and it’s really silly to start claiming everything is fixed because you didn’t get the result you wanted.

    Even in your scenario you can’t simply buy the VAR ref to achieve the fix. In this scenario, you’d absolutely have to buy whoever committed the foul resulting in the final pen or have the prescience that it would happen; you’d also have to buy the centre ref, and probably more just to have it not come out.

    It’s just a matter of Occam’s and Hanlon’s Razor.

    Still waiting to see all the outlandish betting patterns on this game triggering an investigation into the fixing of this match. 🙄
    I don’t think it is fixed and I agree that it is outlandish to suggest it is. But to influence success in betting, you don’t need precision. If a bettor knows that a VAR official is going to make a key call in a game one way, for multiple games, his or her odds change enough that it might well be worth the cost. For that, all you need is to bribe one person.

    So while I think it’s outlandish to suggest this game was fixed, it can’t be cavalierly dismisses. Not in the world of FIFA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I don’t think it is fixed and I agree that it is outlandish to suggest it is. But to influence success in betting, you don’t need precision. If a bettor knows that a VAR official is going to make a key call in a game one way, for multiple games, his or her odds change enough that it might well be worth the cost. For that, all you need is to bribe one person.

    So while I think it’s outlandish to suggest this game was fixed, it can’t be cavalierly dismisses. Not in the world of FIFA.
    In a world where anything can happen, sure. In reality, like you said, it’s outlandish.

    Could the match have been fixed? Sure, anything can. Was it? No. Could a meteor fall from the sky today and ruin my plans of talking about TFC match fixing on this forum? Yes. Will it? I can pretty confidently say nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    In a world where anything can happen, sure. In reality, like you said, it’s outlandish.

    Could the match have been fixed? Sure, anything can. Was it? No. Could a meteor fall from the sky today and ruin my plans of talking about TFC match fixing on this forum? Yes. Will it? I can pretty confidently say nope.

    just think about how they could do it.

    clue: the referee is wearing a headset

    ps: were not in Kansas anymore
    Last edited by stevep; 07-02-2019 at 05:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    just think about how they could do it.

    clue: the referee is wearing a headset

    ps: were not in Kansas anymore
    You’ve solved the mystery! I thought it was the mind control microchips in the flu vaccine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    You’ve solved the mystery! I thought it was the mind control microchips in the flu vaccine.
    Your line of arguing by comparing match fixing to anti vaxxers or chemtrail believers is offensive and out of line. Nobody here is arguing for those things.

    While most of us, myself included, believe its gross incompetence, the point that it would be possible to fix an MLS match by just bribing one official (either the VAR official or the ref) is completely reasonable. It's happened in Serie A, a much bigger and richer league than MLS. It's happened in England, Spain, and right here in Canada (the CSL). BTW, Declan Hill is on the record that potential match fixing is a genuine concern in MLS. You claim you've read him, but you must have missed or forgotten that he's said that (I guess you'd consider him a moon landing hoaxer or something like that).

    You also are completely ignorant of how poorly MLS refs are paid. They only get a few hundred dollars per game, it's mainly done for the love of it (which boggles my mind, why would someone want the abuse that refs get). So there's motivation.

    Of course a flat earth believer like yourself would deny reality, no matter what evidence was provided.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-03-2019 at 07:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post

    You also are completely ignorant of how poorly MLS refs are paid. They only get a few hundred dollars per game, it's mainly done for the love of it (which boggles my mind, why would someone want the abuse that refs get). So there's motivation.

    ....

    A quick google search indicates a little more then that but not much - hard to find stuff on this though. I wonder about the FIFA class MLS refs like Elfath because they are away a lot.


    This article gives numbers but no source http://tsmsportz.com/money/mls-referees-salaries/


    Most articles reference stuff from 8 years ago - again no sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Your line of arguing by comparing match fixing to anti vaxxers or chemtrail believers is offensive and out of line. Nobody here is arguing for those things.

    While most of us, myself included, believe its gross incompetence, the point that it would be possible to fix an MLS match by just bribing one official (either the VAR official or the ref) is completely reasonable. It's happened in Serie A, a much bigger and richer league than MLS. It's happened in England, Spain, and right here in Canada (the CSL). BTW, Declan Hill is on the record that potential match fixing is a genuine concern in MLS. You claim you've read him, but you must have missed or forgotten that he's said that (I guess you'd consider him a moon landing hoaxer or something like that).

    You also are completely ignorant of how poorly MLS refs are paid. They only get a few hundred dollars per game, it's mainly done for the love of it (which boggles my mind, why would someone want the abuse that refs get). So there's motivation.

    Of course a flat earth believer like yourself would deny reality, no matter what evidence was provided.
    I know how well MLS referees are (or, more accurately, aren’t) paid, and I’m aware that literally anything can be fixed, including MLS.

    You claiming that I’m not aware of these things, or that I haven’t read the Hill book (I have) are just baseless accusations (like ones of match fixing). You also claiming something I’ve said is offensive or out-of-line and repeating it with an eye-roll shows just about how specious the line of argument towards this being a fix is.

    I also don’t have the burden of evidence in this, as I wasn’t the one claiming it was fixed in the first place, lol. That’s not how this works, unfortunately.

    “Ref is poorly paid.” “Experts have said that fixing MLS is potentially possible.” “Ref has a headset.” “MLS refs are incompetent.” “It happened before in other leagues!”

    None of these show the match was fixed, nor that it even approached looking like a fixed match, let alone being one. “It’s possible in the vaguest sense” isn’t proof or even justification for making up potentially libellous claims.

    This match wasn’t fixed. Prove me wrong. I’ll pick up a new Impact kit at the next possible opportunity.

    The government is injecting something nefarious into my body with the flu shot. The doctor/nurse/pharmacist isn’t paid very well for administering the shot. They suspiciously go out of the room to get and prep the vaccine without explaining it to me. Doctors have a history of malpractice, even in this country, even recently. The government has a history of spying on its citizens, even in this country, even recently.

    That’s basically a QED by your logic.

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    Why should oldtimer have to prove for you something that he himself hasn't claimed?

    Why are you so wound up about anyone suggesting that it's even in the realm of the possible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    This match wasn’t fixed. Prove me wrong. I’ll pick up a new Impact kit at the next possible opportunity.

    The government is injecting something nefarious into my body with the flu shot. The doctor/nurse/pharmacist isn’t paid very well for administering the shot. They suspiciously go out of the room to get and prep the vaccine without explaining it to me. Doctors have a history of malpractice, even in this country, even recently. The government has a history of spying on its citizens, even in this country, even recently.
    Why do you have to resort to insults?

    I'm not saying the match was fixed. I said it's incompetence.

    I'm saying that you ridiculing people who disagree with you is out of line. Are you saying that Declan Hill is equivalent to an anti-vaxxer? Because that is what you are saying.

    Your line of argumentation by ridicule is a reflection of your poor character rather than how reasonable other people are, and is not allowed on this board. I won't levy a ban or infraction because I am involved in the discussion but I am reporting your posts to the other moderators to handle.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-03-2019 at 08:47 AM.
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Why do you have to resort to insults?

    I'm not saying the match was fixed. I said it's incompetence.

    I'm saying that you ridiculing people who disagree with you is out of line. Are you saying that Declan Hill is equivalent to an anti-vaxxer? Because that is what you are saying.

    Your line of argumentation by ridicule is a reflection of your poor character rather than how reasonable other people are, and is not allowed on this board. I won't levy a ban or infraction because I am involved in the discussion but I am reporting your posts to the other moderators to handle.
    I’d report you for the exact same, but we both know it wouldn’t do anything.

    I’m not sure I claimed Declan Hill was the equivalent of an anti-vax proponent, but I guess you can quote me if I did.

    Again, I also never said that you said it was fixed. I simply said the reasoning you gave is just proof that either everything is fixed, nothing is, or that it’s simply not evidence at all.

    I did, however, compare one ridiculous conspiracy to another. I’m not sure mind control microchips are much of an anti-vax talking point though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    Why should oldtimer have to prove for you something that he himself hasn't claimed?

    Why are you so wound up about anyone suggesting that it's even in the realm of the possible?
    I wish I were wound up, rather than wondering why accusing random people of crimes because you drew a football match is considered not-ridiculous by people here.

    Just because match fixing exists doesn’t mean this game was a fix or even that you’re justified in accusing someone over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    I’d report you for the exact same, but we both know it wouldn’t do anything.
    Except you did.
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

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