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  1. #61
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    Var is a joke. Another game proves it.

    But lets expand here on a non-bias point of view. the copa America game last night... the Linesmen will not raise the flag for OBVIOUS offsides just incase they score. So now the whole game is flawed because teams are getting chances to score when they should be called offside and not working the defence / goalie. Itís embarrassing. Players walking in on breakaways and missing and theyíre heart broken when in fact Iím sitting here not excited at all because I know it will be whistled back for offside. What a joke. The entire game is flawed.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaeltfc91 View Post
    Var is a joke. Another game proves it.

    But lets expand here on a non-bias point of view. the copa America game last night... the Linesmen will not raise the flag for OBVIOUS offsides just incase they score. So now the whole game is flawed because teams are getting chances to score when they should be called offside and not working the defence / goalie. Itís embarrassing. Players walking in on breakaways and missing and theyíre heart broken when in fact Iím sitting here not excited at all because I know it will be whistled back for offside. What a joke. The entire game is flawed.
    ... because thatís what the refs are supposed to do as per those who tell them what to do.

    VAR isnít bad, itís how itís implemented that is bad. Itís like leagues that donít have goal line technology suddenly getting mad because keepers are pulling it out.

    Eventually it will be codified and make sense. Would you rather illegitimate goals? As long as they fit the storyline?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Can we please have Oscar?
    Sorry - quick typing leads to bad auto-correct from Omar to Oscar ó fixed it now....

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    ... because thatís what the refs are supposed to do as per those who tell them what to do.

    VAR isnít bad, itís how itís implemented that is bad. Itís like leagues that donít have goal line technology suddenly getting mad because keepers are pulling it out.

    Eventually it will be codified and make sense. Would you rather illegitimate goals? As long as they fit the storyline?
    You just said it. How it is implemented is bad. At this rate I prefer the soccer 5 years ago a million percent. If you beat the naked eye of the ref itís good enough for me at this point

  5. #65
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    Disappointing end, to what wasn't all that bad a game. A few have mentioned that some players who haven't been playing all that well, actually put in a solid 90 minutes. And I do like the speed up the wing. It gives us more options and stops that terrible barging up the middle that we were doing for a while (quite unsuccessfully).

    Like others, I will take the point.

  6. #66
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    VAR is complete and utter garbage, and I say this as someone who was for it when it was still being discussed/implemented.

    Get it out of the game completely, I don't want any version of it. It's a joke. England gets a good goal disallowed in a World Cup and everyone loses their minds and goes way overboard. It's the same neanderthal thinking poisoning the NHL with their offside reviews, because oh Matt Duchene once went offside and scored and with God as my witness may no one ever even think about scoring an offside goal again. It makes me sick. Just keep goal line technology and leave it at that.

    I don't even need to bring up all the actual in-game problems with it. It's just god awful to watch games with VAR. Soccer is entertainment first and foremost, and if your attempt to increase the integrity of the game seriously damages the entertainment value, it belongs in the trash. I'm done with it.

    I'm praying for a big moment - like in a World Cup knockout game - where VAR clearly fails, something like a team scoring a counter-attack goal only for the VAR to flag for a sketchy penalty right before and it gets called, wiping the goal off and giving one to the team that was actually scored on. Something like that to make these people re-think this.

    Sorry, rant over.

  7. #67
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    # varout

  8. #68
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    Implementation of the VAR system is poor. They need to provide clarity over who exactly decides what. And they really need to consider micing the refs/VAR either fully all the time like they do in rugby & or like they do in cricket - just during the video reviews.

    I suspect that the implementation with the EPL this year is going to result in more codification over how it works.

    A large part of this is the stupidity of the current hand ball rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    ... because thatís what the refs are supposed to do as per those who tell them what to do.

    VAR isnít bad, itís how itís implemented that is bad. Itís like leagues that donít have goal line technology suddenly getting mad because keepers are pulling it out.

    Eventually it will be codified and make sense. Would you rather illegitimate goals? As long as they fit the storyline?
    My issue is, regardless of VAR, MLS officials are horrifically inconsistent about what is seen as a foul or not, when to go to review or not, and the reviews take too long to happen. The league seems to think having this system in place will bail them out from investing more in the officiating function and that could not be further from the truth.

    Despite having much higher quality players in this league than we used to, this has been the most unwatchable season of soccer I have ever seen. It makes me question the merits of following MLS. It feels like bad theatre organized by someoneís drunk uncle where the actors go on for several minutes before the director screams out ďoh ya, we should do that!Ē and things that you have assumed long since past are revisited.

    They should strip this back to red cardable offences only. Live with the human error of the officials and start training them better.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Implementation of the VAR system is poor. They need to provide clarity over who exactly decides what. And they really need to consider micing the refs/VAR either fully all the time like they do in rugby & or like they do in cricket - just during the video reviews.

    I suspect that the implementation with the EPL this year is going to result in more codification over how it works.

    A large part of this is the stupidity of the current hand ball rule.
    Its not just the handball. They have changed how the game is refereed to accommodate VAR. it’s logical from a VAR perspective but is wrong from a soccer perspective.

    Also, it is not more fair than no VAR - like the foul on Laryea leading up to the goal, which isn’t reviewable but must be if the system is to be fair. It introduces a standard of perfection that is too exacting for soccer and was never meant for this game - such as the possible glancing hand ball against DeLeon last game, which wasn’t visible to the naked eye and had no impact on the game whatsoever, yet examined microscopically on tape was a penalty. Agreed that it is implemented badly, but it’s conceptually wrong. And that cannot be fixed. Soccer is a game meant to flow; it’s not the NFL which stops and starts so much more delays are irrelevant because there is no flow - it’s an interference to the basic nature of the game.
    Last edited by MightyDM; 06-30-2019 at 08:36 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    My issue is, regardless of VAR, MLS officials are horrifically inconsistent about what is seen as a foul or not, when to go to review or not, and the reviews take too long to happen. The league seems to think having this system in place will bail them out from investing more in the officiating function and that could not be further from the truth.

    Despite having much higher quality players in this league than we used to, this has been the most unwatchable season of soccer I have ever seen. It makes me question the merits of following MLS. It feels like bad theatre organized by someone’s drunk uncle where the actors go on for several minutes before the director screams out “oh ya, we should do that!” and things that you have assumed long since past are revisited.

    They should strip this back to red cardable offences only. Live with the human error of the officials and start training them better.
    I agree with this. I was thinking before I wrote my previous post - and before I read this - whether I wanted to keep watchingVAR soccer. It’s destroying the joy and spontaneity of the game, the exact thing that makes it such a magnificent sport. And I’ve been playing coaching or watching soccer since the 60’s - thinking about leaving the game is a big deal for me. #VARout
    Last edited by MightyDM; 06-30-2019 at 08:36 AM.

  12. #72
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    Also, Akinola was seriously off the pace. Bad sub unfortunately - Boyd or Hamilton would have been the right sub. Led to the goal.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Soccer's is a game meant to flow; itís not the NFL which stops and starts so much more delays are irrelevant because there is no flow - itís an interference to the basic nature of the game.
    Well it's funny you mention the NFL because they've been raked over the coals for their use of video review for determining catches.

    The problem is video review doesn't help make subjective decisions, it's really that simple. It only helps to answer objective questions that are clear to the naked eye. Did the runner touch the bag before the fielder caught the ball? Who touched the basketball last before it went out of bounds?

    VAR is never going to improve in soccer because nobody can actually say what a foul or a handball is. They're judgment calls every single time. Every single implementation of video review for judgment calls in any sport has led to controversy instead of solving it. Hopefully the powers that be eventually understand this.

  14. #74
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    VAR is great and every call against us recently was the correct one and the game is better to have them called correctly.

    With that said, the implementation needs alot of work. Firstly, it's not the calls it gets but the ones it doesn't. Anyone wanna tell me how VAR doesn't call a penalty here?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JozyAltid...43803865391104

    (Jozy will pay for that but love that he's calling it out)

    The lack of consistency is infuriating. The other issue I have is we should trust the guys in the booth, the referee on the pitch should *never* overrule them which they occasionally let their ego get in the way and do and also they should *never* waste minutes of a game watching a replay themselves which is a waste of time when three guys in a booth with 50 angles are telling the ref so something is clear and obvious - just trust them and make the call

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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    Well it's funny you mention the NFL because they've been raked over the coals for their use of video review for determining catches.

    The problem is video review doesn't help make subjective decisions, it's really that simple. It only helps to answer objective questions that are clear to the naked eye. Did the runner touch the bag before the fielder caught the ball? Who touched the basketball last before it went out of bounds?

    VAR is never going to improve in soccer because nobody can actually say what a foul or a handball is. They're judgment calls every single time. Every single implementation of video review for judgment calls in any sport has led to controversy instead of solving it. Hopefully the powers that be eventually understand this.
    Yes, this is the crux of it.

    Iím personally for VAR with an implementation that doesnít slow down the game, but it seems largely impossible without it being governed by some sort of AI considering the speed of the game, lack of pauses, and complex nature of the rules.

    Thatís without even touching on referee incompetence.

    This penalty was ridiculous, but the penalty after the game was over was even more egregious a mistake. Should we be deep diving videos from last year to take points away from or give them to teams?

    Part of it is that MLS refs are bad (so are refs in every league in every sport), but at this point teams have to ďplay to VARĒ and not even ďplay to the whistle.Ē May as well have a disembodied whistle instead of refs at all (like the goal line CL official who rarely does anything, even when it involves the goal line).

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    VAR is great and every call against us recently was the correct one and the game is better to have them called correctly.

    With that said, the implementation needs alot of work. Firstly, it's not the calls it gets but the ones it doesn't. Anyone wanna tell me how VAR doesn't call a penalty here?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JozyAltid...43803865391104

    (Jozy will pay for that but love that he's calling it out)

    The lack of consistency is infuriating. The other issue I have is we should trust the guys in the booth, the referee on the pitch should *never* overrule them which they occasionally let their ego get in the way and do and also they should *never* waste minutes of a game watching a replay themselves which is a waste of time when three guys in a booth with 50 angles are telling the ref so something is clear and obvious - just trust them and make the call
    VAR cannot be used for subjective decisions as was beautifully argued above. And without accepting your premise that VAR was right every time it was used against us, even if it was, there were lots of moments in all of these games where more obvious fouls were let go or were not reviewable because of where they were. This is inevitable unless everything becomes reviewable. Therefore it doesn’t matter how well VAR works, by being overly precise in one part of the game and normal in the rest, it becomes unfair, by definition.

    As for the Video, the referee was right there. Looking at it. No need for VAR. just competent refereeing.
    Last edited by MightyDM; 06-30-2019 at 11:44 AM.

  17. #77
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    VAR is not used for subjective decisions, it's supposed to be used for 'clear and obvious' errors. That was the remit from day one. It is also only to review certain situations which I believe are penalties, reds and goals, so no it won't catch all the moments in a game which is a trade off for time. It's not unfair as this doesn't favour any team

    Whether it's been used as originally desired 100% of the time is another story (And i have issues with implementation as I've said) but, all the recent penalties against TFC were clear and obvious errors. Take your TFC hat off, they all were, not a single one was subjective or debatable. Our enemy in defence is bad decision making, not video review compensating for bad officiating

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    VAR is great and every call against us recently was the correct one and the game is better to have them called correctly.

    With that said, the implementation needs alot of work. Firstly, it's not the calls it gets but the ones it doesn't. Anyone wanna tell me how VAR doesn't call a penalty here?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JozyAltid...43803865391104

    (Jozy will pay for that but love that he's calling it out)

    The lack of consistency is infuriating. The other issue I have is we should trust the guys in the booth, the referee on the pitch should *never* overrule them which they occasionally let their ego get in the way and do and also they should *never* waste minutes of a game watching a replay themselves which is a waste of time when three guys in a booth with 50 angles are telling the ref so something is clear and obvious - just trust them and make the call

    You could argue that this was a rigged game. The evidence points to it.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    VAR is great and every call against us recently was the correct one and the game is better to have them called correctly.

    With that said, the implementation needs alot of work. Firstly, it's not the calls it gets but the ones it doesn't. Anyone wanna tell me how VAR doesn't call a penalty here?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JozyAltid...43803865391104

    (Jozy will pay for that but love that he's calling it out)

    The lack of consistency is infuriating. The other issue I have is we should trust the guys in the booth, the referee on the pitch should *never* overrule them which they occasionally let their ego get in the way and do and also they should *never* waste minutes of a game watching a replay themselves which is a waste of time when three guys in a booth with 50 angles are telling the ref so something is clear and obvious - just trust them and make the call
    Youíre right, but this also involves eliminating refs entirely, which they wonít want. The whole ďlead ref decides what is whatĒ is an important part of having officials, especially humans with differing interpretations of the rules.

    It eventually becomes not having officials at all (like a video game), or having bad officials who overrule VAR either by poor judgment or by ego.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    You could argue that this was a rigged game. The evidence points to it.
    Uhh... this is legitimately nonsense.

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    You could argue that this was a rigged game. The evidence points to it.
    You think MLS rigged...a home point for DC United? Why!? Let's not lose all perspective here, shit happens, that doesn't mean there's conspiracy theories going on

  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    VAR is not used for subjective decisions, it's supposed to be used for 'clear and obvious' errors. That was the remit from day one. It is also only to review certain situations which I believe are penalties, reds and goals, so no it won't catch all the moments in a game which is a trade off for time. It's not unfair as this doesn't favour any team

    Whether it's been used as originally desired 100% of the time is another story (And i have issues with implementation as I've said) but, all the recent penalties against TFC were clear and obvious errors. Take your TFC hat off, they all were, not a single one was subjective or debatable. Our enemy in defence is bad decision making, not video review compensating for bad officiating
    I have to disagree with you. In a particular game, itís unfair for fouls not to be given in favour of a team that then gives up a penalty through VAR - see TFC game last night for a perfect example. Over the season it might even out but so what?

    Secondly, they have not been called correctly. Deleonís hand ball, if there was one, was not deliberate and was not a penalty; Pozuelo handball, if deliberate (which is debatable) was not clearly and obviously inside the area. And even if it was by an inch, thatís not a clear and obvious error. Moorís Wasnít even a foul.

    Thirdly, the referees are already refereeing differently and letting VAR referee. This isnít like football or goal line technology or rugby where there is a definitive ďis it over the lineĒ - these are moving violations with subjective interpretations both on video and in real time, and should be referred the traditional way because there is no absolute answer. Keep the game moving man, thatís itís beauty.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I have to disagree with you. In a particular game, itís unfair for fouls not to be given in favour of a team that then gives up a penalty through VAR - see TFC game last night for a perfect example. Over the season it might even out but so what?

    Secondly, they have not been called correctly. Deleonís hand ball, if there was one, was not deliberate and was not a penalty; Pozuelo handball, if deliberate (which is debatable) was not clearly and obviously inside the area. And even if it was by an inch, thatís not a clear and obvious error. Moorís Wasnít even a foul.

    Thirdly, the referees are already refereeing differently and letting VAR referee. This isnít like football or goal line technology or rugby where there is a definitive ďis it over the lineĒ - these are moving violations with subjective interpretations both on video and in real time, and should be referred the traditional way because there is no absolute answer. Keep the game moving man, thatís itís beauty.
    None of these are issues with VAR in general, though. Theyíre just issues with refs, subjective calls, and the league telling PRO how games should be officiated.

    Itís implementation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    None of these are issues with VAR in general, though. They’re just issues with refs, subjective calls, and the league telling PRO how games should be officiated.

    It’s implementation.
    No, they are structural. Trying to make a subjective game absolute. That’s why they are now calling all hand balls instead of intentional hand balls, which is the rule - to make it easier for VAR. changing the game, and for the worse.
    Last edited by MightyDM; 06-30-2019 at 12:13 PM.

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    Back to the game on the field:

    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    2. Some of these players are getting a bad wrap. Everyone hates on Marky, but he had a great game.

    Morrow looked better than he does usually. Deleon looked better. Ciman looked better.

    QW is an excellent MLS keeper on basically no salary.
    I've clipped the parts I wanted to emphasize. In particular, it seems to me that Morrow benefits from having Shaffelburg in front of him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    No, they are structural. Trying to make a subjective game absolute. Thatís why they are now calling all hand balls instead of dintentional, which is the rule - to make it easier for VAR. changing the game, and for the worse.
    There are plenty of places that donít even have goal line tech, and are probably decades away from VAR... changing the rules to benefit VAR exclusively are pointless unless the goal is to eliminate referees overall, which lessens drama but at least makes matches fair and impartial (or absolute, if you like).

    The handball thing is silly, but itís just the reverse of not calling foul throws, holding, or the numerous fouls youíd see on every corner or free kick.

    Itís also equally silly because watching a VAR review of a handball will tell you whether or not itís intentional, just as the ref can tell in real time had he seen it. Again, itís an implementation issue. If all handballs are handballs, fine. If only intentional ones are then you can tell via VAR based on the playerís movement.

    If you implement VAR poorly itís going to suck. The refs in this league have it from on high that you donít even raise a flag when someone is in on goal because VAR will check... thatís not the proper implementation either.

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    I would have said before the last two matches that with the lineup we had available we had no business getting any points against Atlanta and DC. So that gives me perspective.

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    i want var out..i can deal with the consequences of a human mistake.i cant stand the hand on the ear after every goal or every shout for a hand ball.the hand ball rule has become a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Uhh... this is legitimately nonsense.
    i figured out how they do it

 

 

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