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  1. #2341
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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    If he’s ever played 1/3 of a season, we already know what his contribution is. It isn’t really entirely hypothetical if we can look at his past seasons and extrapolate from there.

    That’s why I said he’s a known quantity.

    If we have to sign a DP striker on short notice you are extremely limited by what is available, who would come here, etc.
    This is why I said I wouldn't want to get rid of him
    This is Damned if we do, Damned if we don't situation.

    If he wins us another MLS Cup, in retrospect, we would look back and say it was worth it.
    If we don't, we would look back and say he hamstrung our team moving forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    If he was sold then it would be almost better to wait until the winter window unless they have tabs on someone already. I think this is nothing though. He is going nowhere.
    We won't sell him. Not unless we already have a target lined up and was 99% attainable by the end of this transfer window.

    I'd be shocked if they said Fuck it to this season and sold him without a target ready to pounce on now. However, I also wouldn't be surprised, but very disappointed if they did fuck the season considering how shit we've looked this year at times.

    When TFC played hardball with Gio, they already knew Pozuelo was an attainable target #1 (that's if you buy the narrative that they are selling - which I have no reason to not believe at the moment.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    ...

    When TFC played hardball with Gio, they already knew Pozuelo was an attainable target #1 (that's if you buy the narrative that they are selling - which I have no reason to not believe at the moment.)
    The narrative they are selling was Seba blindsided them & then they looked at their list & went after a player to fit into a new approach while keeping their options open


    The first and last bits are suspect to me - I think they should have realised losing Seba then was possible & I don't think those "binders of players" are as extensive as Bez said they were - this team gets focused real quick on players and doesn't budge quickly from that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Window to bring in not open until the 5th - you can presign a transfer in and out but can't physically sign until Friday.

    ******

    FWIW, the lowest amount of appearances Jozy has had in a season for us is 13 last year - so the only 1/3 of a season thing is a bit much.

    2015 25
    2016 23
    2017 27
    2018 13
    2019 9 (out of 18 when they get back from USMNT duty)
    Yeah 1/3 is unfair. I had him pegged just above 50% of possible minutes played going into the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    The narrative they are selling was Seba blindsided them & then they looked at their list & went after a player to fit into a new approach while keeping their options open


    The first and last bits are suspect to me - I think they should have realised losing Seba then was possible & I don't think those "binders of players" are as extensive as Bez said they were - this team gets focused real quick on players and doesn't budge quickly from that.
    They were blindsided because they were arrogant. They called Seba's bluff and lost. However, I'll give them more credit than is warranted. They turned and got a decent player in Poz pretty quickly. I don't think that happens without being prepared - perhaps Manning wasn't prepared, but someone / some team, within TFC was ready.

  6. #2346
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    It's been, what, 48 hours since the news of an offer for Jozy emerged? I haven't seen a single thing from any Toronto media. Has anyone even asked Manning about it? Half the soccer media was laid off in the past few days, but still.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    It's been, what, 48 hours since the news of an offer for Jozy emerged? I haven't seen a single thing from any Toronto media. Has anyone even asked Manning about it? Half the soccer media was laid off in the past few days, but still.
    https://torontosun.com/sports/soccer...box=1562156791

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Window to bring in not open until the 5th - you can presign a transfer in and out but can't physically sign until Friday.

    ******

    FWIW, the lowest amount of appearances Jozy has had in a season for us is 13 last year - so the only 1/3 of a season thing is a bit much.

    2015 25
    2016 23
    2017 27
    2018 13
    2019 9 (out of 18 when they get back from USMNT duty)


    Don't look at appearances - look at his minutes played. yes - 1/3 of the season is kinda pushing it, but when you consider minutes being played not at 100% fitness either due to playing injured or coming back from an injury, I bet we get close to that 1/3 mark:

    (Based on 34 games played = 3060 minutes available to be played.)

    Jozy (50 goals)

    2015 - 1796 (58%)
    2016 - 1487 (49%)
    2017 - 2194 (71%)
    2018 - 877 (28%)
    2019 - 616 (38%)


    Compare that to Bradley Wright Phillips (79 Goals)

    2015 - 2865 (93%)
    2016 - 2761 (90%)
    2017 - 2560 (83%)
    2018 - 2536 (82%)
    2019 - 541 (33%)


    HEALTH IS THE ISSUE - NOT SKILL, NOT LEADERSHIP - IT'S HEALTH

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    Thanks, didn't see that. That's something I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Don't look at appearances - look at his minutes played. yes - 1/3 of the season is kinda pushing it, but when you consider minutes being played not at 100% fitness either due to playing injured or coming back from an injury, I bet we get close to that 1/3 mark:

    (Based on 34 games played = 3060 minutes available to be played.)

    Jozy (50 goals)

    2015 - 1796 (58%)
    2016 - 1487 (49%)
    2017 - 2194 (71%)
    2018 - 877 (28%)
    2019 - 616 (38%)


    Compare that to Bradley Wright Phillips (79 Goals)

    2015 - 2865 (93%)
    2016 - 2761 (90%)
    2017 - 2560 (83%)
    2018 - 2536 (82%)
    2019 - 541 (33%)


    HEALTH IS THE ISSUE - NOT SKILL, NOT LEADERSHIP - IT'S HEALTH
    Someone will just quote gpm though.

    If there were a striker we could bring in now, who could contribute at the rate Jozy does, and play more often (disregarding intangibles and anything but production and health), everyone would likely be okay with that.

    The problem is finding that striker if Jozy were to accept, and assuming the FO can bring them in. You run into a whole host of problems bringing people to MLS, and trading Jozy’s contribution despite lack of minutes for someone who may not contribute to that level even playing 100% of the time is a real risk.

    Then you have to consider the intangibles and everything outside production and health, and it becomes even more difficult to ascertain whether the player is a good fit or not.

    If they’d been looking for a while and had a list of possible replacements they’re after people would probably be more open to letting him go, I suspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Someone will just quote gpm though.

    If there were a striker we could bring in now, who could contribute at the rate Jozy does, and play more often (disregarding intangibles and anything but production and health), everyone would likely be okay with that.

    The problem is finding that striker if Jozy were to accept, and assuming the FO can bring them in. You run into a whole host of problems bringing people to MLS, and trading Jozy’s contribution despite lack of minutes for someone who may not contribute to that level even playing 100% of the time is a real risk.

    Then you have to consider the intangibles and everything outside production and health, and it becomes even more difficult to ascertain whether the player is a good fit or not.

    If they’d been looking for a while and had a list of possible replacements they’re after people would probably be more open to letting him go, I suspect.
    Also, if you could get a striker to play with Pozuelo, who can make those crafty runs in behind defenders, you would probably pick...Jozy. They already had a good understanding in just a few games. It will be awesome watching them play out the second half of the season. A new guy may not have that same understanding.

  12. #2352
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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Someone will just quote gpm though.

    If there were a striker we could bring in now, who could contribute at the rate Jozy does, and play more often (disregarding intangibles and anything but production and health), everyone would likely be okay with that.

    The problem is finding that striker if Jozy were to accept, and assuming the FO can bring them in. You run into a whole host of problems bringing people to MLS, and trading Jozy’s contribution despite lack of minutes for someone who may not contribute to that level even playing 100% of the time is a real risk.

    Then you have to consider the intangibles and everything outside production and health, and it becomes even more difficult to ascertain whether the player is a good fit or not.

    If they’d been looking for a while and had a list of possible replacements they’re after people would probably be more open to letting him go, I suspect.
    Well written post. Fully agree

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Also, if you could get a striker to play with Pozuelo, who can make those crafty runs in behind defenders, you would probably pick...Jozy. They already had a good understanding in just a few games. It will be awesome watching them play out the second half of the season. A new guy may not have that same understanding.
    Really you'd pick Jozy and not Josef Martinez?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Someone will just quote gpm though.

    If there were a striker we could bring in now, who could contribute at the rate Jozy does, and play more often (disregarding intangibles and anything but production and health), everyone would likely be okay with that.

    The problem is finding that striker if Jozy were to accept, and assuming the FO can bring them in. You run into a whole host of problems bringing people to MLS, and trading Jozy’s contribution despite lack of minutes for someone who may not contribute to that level even playing 100% of the time is a real risk.

    Then you have to consider the intangibles and everything outside production and health, and it becomes even more difficult to ascertain whether the player is a good fit or not.

    If they’d been looking for a while and had a list of possible replacements they’re after people would probably be more open to letting him go, I suspect.
    Look at those numbers and look at the seasons we had.

    2015 - Jozy played off and on. We were less garbage, but we made it into the playoffs on the back of Seba
    2016 - Jozy played the back end of the season, we made a run to the finals
    2017 - Jozy played a full season and we were the best team ever
    2018 - Jozy sporadically played and we were garbage
    2019 - Jozy Sporadically played and we were garbage.

    Point is - without Jozy, we are garbage - basically we can't put the ball into the back of the net when needed. So Sure - when he's around, we are great, but we can't consistently count on him to be there when we need him.

    Again...because of injury.

    The idea there is no one else around that could do the job is ridiculous. There are more player than not that have scored more than Jozy since 2015, so to say production wise he's an anomaly is ridiculous.

    At the end of the day - i want him to stay - but he needs to be healthy. If he can't stay healthy, he needs to take a pay cut so that we could buy him down to TAM and bring in a DP who can consistently do the job. This is what we are faced with in MLS. His contract isn't about us fans worried about MLSE dollars. It's about DP vs TAM status.

  15. #2355
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post


    At the end of the day - i want him to stay - but he needs to be healthy. If he can't stay healthy, he needs to take a pay cut so that we could buy him down to TAM and bring in a DP who can consistently do the job.
    All good points. Hopefully Seba's fitness guy can keep him healthy this year.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Jozy just started a three-year contract extension, why would he take a pay cut?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Look at those numbers and look at the seasons we had.

    2015 - Jozy played off and on. We were less garbage, but we made it into the playoffs on the back of Seba
    2016 - Jozy played the back end of the season, we made a run to the finals
    2017 - Jozy played a full season and we were the best team ever
    2018 - Jozy sporadically played and we were garbage
    2019 - Jozy Sporadically played and we were garbage.

    Point is - without Jozy, we are garbage - basically we can't put the ball into the back of the net when needed. So Sure - when he's around, we are great, but we can't consistently count on him to be there when we need him.

    Again...because of injury.

    The idea there is no one else around that could do the job is ridiculous. There are more player than not that have scored more than Jozy since 2015, so to say production wise he's an anomaly is ridiculous.

    At the end of the day - i want him to stay - but he needs to be healthy. If he can't stay healthy, he needs to take a pay cut so that we could buy him down to TAM and bring in a DP who can consistently do the job. This is what we are faced with in MLS. His contract isn't about us fans worried about MLSE dollars. It's about DP vs TAM status.
    It’s all a question of who you bring in though, or how you play when he’s out.

    If he’s out and we have a capable backup, or a different system less reliant on him, that could work too. It’s not the case, and our backup strikers are very one-dimensional.

    The idea isn’t that no one can do the job, it’s that those same players who could may not come here for numerous reasons. It’s not as simple as having money and an open slot. An example from our FO: there are hundreds of potential TAM wingers we could have signed, but we instead signed none and kept chasing one or two players who they still haven’t even announced after getting the run around in South America. One of these even played for us before. If that’s your type of yardstick for acquisitions, I’m not sure you find the cure for an injured Jozy at the last minute losing him suddenly.

    Even when your team is one of the best in the world, playing European football, and you spend as much money as you want on a “world class” player you can still be Barça and Coutinho (poor performances), PSG and Neymar (injured too often at critical moments), or whatever has happened with Alexis Sanchez or Bale.

    If it’s not guaranteed even for the biggest and the best, it’s light years from being guaranteed for an MLS team.

    The more urgent the need to bring someone in, the more you end up with desperation moves or bandaid fixes. With this FO, I’d be even more hesitant to see who they pull out of a hat at the last minute because they were forced to sign someone.

    It’s about getting the right piece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    With this FO, I’d be even more hesitant to see who they pull out of a hat at the last minute because they were forced to sign someone.
    Recent FO moves make me think someone like a Aron Johannsson or Julian Green would be their rushed signing.

  19. #2359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Jozy just started a three-year contract extension, why would he take a pay cut?
    He won't - this is all just debate about why people won't give him slack solely based on what he isn't giving the team by not being healthy vs those who do give him slack based on what he does produce in the time he is here.

    he could however be moved - which I don't agree with mid-season

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Look at those numbers and look at the seasons we had.

    2015 - Jozy played off and on. We were less garbage, but we made it into the playoffs on the back of Seba
    2016 - Jozy played the back end of the season, we made a run to the finals
    2017 - Jozy played a full season and we were the best team ever
    2018 - Jozy sporadically played and we were garbage
    2019 - Jozy Sporadically played and we were garbage.

    Point is - without Jozy, we are garbage - basically we can't put the ball into the back of the net when needed. So Sure - when he's around, we are great, but we can't consistently count on him to be there when we need him.

    Again...because of injury.

    The idea there is no one else around that could do the job is ridiculous. There are more player than not that have scored more than Jozy since 2015, so to say production wise he's an anomaly is ridiculous.

    At the end of the day - i want him to stay - but he needs to be healthy. If he can't stay healthy, he needs to take a pay cut so that we could buy him down to TAM and bring in a DP who can consistently do the job. This is what we are faced with in MLS. His contract isn't about us fans worried about MLSE dollars. It's about DP vs TAM status.
    Thank you for better articulating how I feel.

    If we were in a no "cap" league we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

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    [QUOTE=jabbronies;1902458]Look at those numbers and look at the seasons we had.

    2015 - Jozy played off and on. We were less garbage, but we made it into the playoffs on the back of Seba
    2016 - Jozy played the back end of the season, we made a run to the finals
    2017 - Jozy played a full season and we were the best team ever
    2018 - Jozy sporadically played and we were garbage
    2019 - Jozy Sporadically played and we were garbage.

    Point is - without Jozy, we are garbage - basically we can't put the ball into the back of the net when needed. So Sure - when he's around, we are great, but we can't consistently count on him to be there when we need him.

    Again...because of injury.

    The idea there is no one else around that could do the job is ridiculous. There are more player than not that have scored more than Jozy since 2015, so to say production wise he's an anomaly is ridiculous.

    At the end of the day - i want him to stay - but he needs to be healthy. If he can't stay healthy, he needs to take a pay cut so that we could buy him down to TAM and bring in a DP who can consistently do the job. This is what we are faced with in MLS. His contract isn't about us fans worried about MLSE dollars. It's about DP vs TAM status QUOTE]

    Good points. My concern is a) I love Jozys skill passion and history with us; and b) management hasn’t shown that they can replace Seba (they replaced VV) so have no confidence that they can replace Jozy. In MLS, you are just as likely to get a Mista or Gilberto as a BWP or a Jozy. So the question is, do we want Jozy 50 per cent or 100 percent of a 50 percent chance of success. I’d take the known quantity and build around it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Thank you for better articulating how I feel.

    If we were in a no "cap" league we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
    Seems to me this only matters if you are not in a “cap” league. We are not going to get an intermittently elite striker on a TAM deal. Anybody you replace Jozy with will have the same cap hit.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Ugh. This is what happens when we got no rumors(acquisition), or journos digging.

    Just sign some good wingers dammit! Lets go back to winning games.
    Last edited by Richard; 07-03-2019 at 06:46 PM.

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    Jozy starting & playing great vs. Jamaica tonight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Jozy starting & playing great vs. Jamaica tonight.
    Good

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Recent FO moves make me think someone like a Aron Johannsson or Julian Green would be their rushed signing.
    Highly suggest against ArJo who I wanted to do well at Werder but was far too injured. Green I could see but no where near the calibre, not that it would stop them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Jozy starting & playing great vs. Jamaica tonight.
    A review said that the US play was much better with Jozy up front than against Curacao. When he's fit, he's still one of the best out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    A review said that the US play was much better with Jozy up front than against Curacao. When he's fit, he's still one of the best out there.
    Yup, and the US's quality got much worse last night after Zardes came on for Jozy after 55 minutes. Jamaica launched something of a comeback, partly also because the US relaxed too much after being up 2-0. I was happy that Jozy was off w/o injury; the game was quite rough. (I was half hoping that Jamaica would prevail, and send Bradley & Altidore home uninjured. I am US American myself, but not very gung-ho. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Dont have a clue. But at least it wasn't "in two weeks". Curtis is a bit like someone who procrastinates on an essay and makes it longer and longer. Janson would do; I am not too excited by the transfer moves as the club doesnt seem to be able to do its business very well at the moment - more excited by Shaffleburg and Jozy returning

 

 

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