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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    He says that now but will he feel the same way on a Wednesday night game in March in New England?
    I have been out of the country so haven’t been able to fully chime in on how vexed I am about this deal and what it signals.

    How many of these loan to own deals work? What are the odds that he is still on the roster next March?

    25%?

    Gah. These deals are the hallmarks of timid management teams that can't identify or sign players and don’t know what else to do. The locker room dynamics on these deals are all wrong from the get go. Regardless of the quality of the player.

    This seriously brings back bad memories. Remember Alen Stefanovic and John Bostock?

    (Bostock has gone on to have a very nice career in Belgium, Turkey and France, and now plays for Toulouse. Like I said, my comment on the transaction is not related to the potential caliber of the player)
    Last edited by ensco; 08-02-2019 at 02:16 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I have been out of the country so haven’t been able to fully chime in on how vexed I am about this deal and what it signals.

    How many of these loan to own deals work? What are the odds that he is still on the roster next March?

    25%?

    Gah. These deals are the hallmarks of timid management teams that can't identify or sign players and don’t know what else to do. The locker room dynamics on these deals are all wrong from the get go. Regardless of the quality of the player.

    This seriously brings back bad memories. Remember Alen Stefanovic and John Bostock?

    (Bostock has gone on to have a very nice career in Belgium, Turkey and France, and now plays for Toulouse. Like I said, my comment on the transaction is not related to the potential caliber of the player)
    1. The internet works in other countries Ensco.

    2. John Bostock was who I was trying to remember. This looks and smells like his acquisition. However, we do need someone with the apparent qualities this player brings - particularly to rest / challenge / educate Shaff. So while I think you are right about timidity, it might work out.

    3. It was also interesting to see what MLSE said about TFC in the Globe today.

    “Our focus right now is to make sure that the team in the field is a contender. And that means we need to continue to invest. And so, we don’t necessarily look at it as a typical PnL. We look at it more in the context of ‘are we going to win? Are we going to achieve our championship aspirations?’ And we want to do that in a smart way. We want to do that in a prudent way. But it’s important that we find a path to making sure that we continue to remain a contender”

    For me that means no more Sebastian or Bradley’s or Bloody Big Deals and lots of Jansons. Win, but not at any cost is now the philosophy.

    Also mentions, in the context of the Marlins and Raptors 905, the importance of young talent being developed on TFC2
    Last edited by MightyDM; 08-02-2019 at 06:50 AM.

  3. #3153
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Try February in Nashville - next year the season is starting a couple of weeks earlier.
    I think they're only going to move it ahead one week to the end of February, probably because of the moving of the end of season to the beginning of October has put too much midweek game strain on the players and teams are complaining. I think it should work okay if the first two weeks of the season are played in the warmer climes - many of the current and future teams should be able to handle a February start date and still be well above 0C: Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, SJ, Sacramento, LAG, LAFC, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Austin, Houston, Dallas, Nashville, Atlanta, Orlando, and Miami.

  4. #3154
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    1. The internet works in other countries Ensco.

    2. John Bostock was who I was trying to remember. This looks and smells like his acquisition. However, we do need someone with the apparent qualities this player brings - particularly to rest / challenge / educate Shaff. So while I think you are right about timidity, it might work out.

    3. It was also interesting to see what MLSE said about TFC in the Globe today.

    “Our focus right now is to make sure that the team in the field is a contender. And that means we need to continue to invest. And so, we don’t necessarily look at it as a typical PnL. We look at it more in the context of ‘are we going to win? Are we going to achieve our championship aspirations?’ And we want to do that in a smart way. We want to do that in a prudent way. But it’s important that we find a path to making sure that we continue to remain a contender”

    For me that means no more Sebastian or Bradley’s or Bloody Big Deals and lots of Jansons. Win, but not at any cost is now the philosophy.

    Also mentions, in the context of the Marlins and Raptors 905, the importance of young talent being developed on TFC2
    I was also happy to see their comments on keeping Toronto FC a contender. Maybe we sign a big DP when MB4 leaves this summer? Fingers crossed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    3. It was also interesting to see what MLSE said about TFC in the Globe today.

    “Our focus right now is to make sure that the team in the field is a contender. And that means we need to continue to invest. And so, we don’t necessarily look at it as a typical PnL. We look at it more in the context of ‘are we going to win? Are we going to achieve our championship aspirations?’ And we want to do that in a smart way. We want to do that in a prudent way. But it’s important that we find a path to making sure that we continue to remain a contender”

    For me that means no more Sebastian or Bradley’s or Bloody Big Deals and lots of Jansons. Win, but not at any cost is now the philosophy.

    Also mentions, in the context of the Marlins and Raptors 905, the importance of young talent being developed on TFC2
    I think it means they will be looking for more Pozuelo/Valeri types. Very good DP players who aren't at $6M+. It's proven that that type of DP isn't necessary to success.

    As for the academy, to be a consistent top team then that's how it has to be done. The academy has to produce decent prospects for our squad and for sale. No other way around it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I think it means they will be looking for more Pozuelo/Valeri types. Very good DP players who aren't at $6M+. It's proven that that type of DP isn't necessary to success.

    As for the academy, to be a consistent top team then that's how it has to be done. The academy has to produce decent prospects for our squad and for sale. No other way around it.
    ? 2016 and 2017 was proof enough for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I have been out of the country so haven’t been able to fully chime in on how vexed I am about this deal and what it signals.

    How many of these loan to own deals work? What are the odds that he is still on the roster next March?

    25%?

    Gah. These deals are the hallmarks of timid management teams that can't identify or sign players and don’t know what else to do. The locker room dynamics on these deals are all wrong from the get go. Regardless of the quality of the player.

    This seriously brings back bad memories. Remember Alen Stefanovic and John Bostock?

    (Bostock has gone on to have a very nice career in Belgium, Turkey and France, and now plays for Toulouse. Like I said, my comment on the transaction is not related to the potential caliber of the player)

    If you like a player but have leverage to negotiate as a loan with an option to buy why wouldn’t you take that? We’ve seen in many cases how hard it is for some talent to adjust to life and the game in MLS so having that safety net is a no brainer for me. Vanney already said he hopes he does well and they can trigger the buy option because he prioritizes roster stability.

    Based on their performances for TFC would you have preferred Bostock and Stefanovic were signed long term? I doubt many would have and their success later doesn’t necessarily mean it would have happened if they stayed here.

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    2016-2017 was built through signings, trades & the draft with only Osorio & Morgan (maybe Chapman if you are generous) providing something from within the setup. Swing & you miss on a few of those signings drafts/trades & you are behind others who have decent development systems.

    You want to see the real example of how bad this can get - look at Vancouver - apart from Davies they have nothing they can really say was a good move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I think it means they will be looking for more Pozuelo/Valeri types. Very good DP players who aren't at $6M+. It's proven that that type of DP isn't necessary to success.
    Don't agree with this statement.

    For starters - Diego Valeri is a good player, but he's not the calibre as or value as a Pozuelo or Jozy.

    Poz was 3.8 million. and Jozy re-signed for a bit higher.
    Both well above what a player like Valeri is worth.

    Second - Giovinco was a fluke signing for TFC. The stars aligned and we were presented with an opportunity to sign a phenomenal player. So they did.
    Don't kid yourself if that type of player comes up again - TFC wouldn't make that move. If a player is worth $6million - TFC will pay it if they feel it's worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Don't agree with this statement.

    For starters - Diego Valeri is a good player, but he's not the calibre as or value as a Pozuelo or Jozy.

    Poz was 3.8 million. and Jozy re-signed for a bit higher.
    Both well above what a player like Valeri is worth.

    Second - Giovinco was a fluke signing for TFC. The stars aligned and we were presented with an opportunity to sign a phenomenal player. So they did.
    Don't kid yourself if that type of player comes up again - TFC wouldn't make that move. If a player is worth $6million - TFC will pay it if they feel it's worth it.
    If anything Valeri has been massively underpaid/under valued given hes won a cup and been league MVP. Not sure what point you are trying to make here.

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    Because I’m at the airport with nothing to do, and we’ve been talking about Wingers With Attitude (WWA): apparently Browne has become the Eazy-E to Rémy Garde’s Dr. Dre.

    For those who wanted Browne, how do you feel now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    If anything Valeri has been massively underpaid/under valued given hes won a cup and been league MVP. Not sure what point you are trying to make here.
    Agreed. Valeri is and has been excellent since coming to MLS. Plus he's durable even when playing on a lot of carpet. You can't even compare Poz to Valeri ATM. One has been league MVP, is usually double digits in goals and assists at the end of the season, and is a cup winner. Only downside to him now is that he's 33 but for what he brings at $2.4M he is more than worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stress View Post
    If you like a player but have leverage to negotiate as a loan with an option to buy why wouldn’t you take that? We’ve seen in many cases how hard it is for some talent to adjust to life and the game in MLS so having that safety net is a no brainer for me. Vanney already said he hopes he does well and they can trigger the buy option because he prioritizes roster stability.

    Based on their performances for TFC would you have preferred Bostock and Stefanovic were signed long term? I doubt many would have and their success later doesn’t necessarily mean it would have happened if they stayed here.
    This transaction type is bad for the room. Nobody should be in there with this limited a commitment out of the gate. It guarantees the outcome far too often.

    Even if that weren’t true, these deals act like loans when you want them to be purchases. Janson is Exhibit A on that. We wasted a lot of playing time, management time, and general energy on him. Opportunity cost is always high in a capped league.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    If anything Valeri has been massively underpaid/under valued given hes won a cup and been league MVP. Not sure what point you are trying to make here.
    Follow the convo man.
    I didn't agree with this statement:

    I think it means they will be looking for more Pozuelo/Valeri types. Very good DP players who aren't at $6M+. It's proven that that type of DP isn't necessary to success.
    You don't build a competitive team going after player like Valeri or BWP. Valeri's and BWP's were players teams took a chance on. Players who didn't stand out previously to joining the league (Valeri was a loan deal to start BTW) You don't go sign a DV or BWP and say - "We are going to build around this guy"...Pozuelo you do.

    Pozuelo had pedigree before coming here. There was a higher percent guarantee he was going to work out one way or another in this league vs DV or BWP. You give guys like Pozuelo $4-$6 million contracts because you pretty much know what you're getting.

    Valeri and BWP are excellent in this league now that they've played here - but don't kid yourself and say they are the same player as Pozuelo or Altiodre. They are exceptions to the rule. Flukes. Happy surprises. TFC are not going to focus on that type of signing for their big guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Don't agree with this statement.

    For starters - Diego Valeri is a good player, but he's not the calibre as or value as a Pozuelo or Jozy.

    Poz was 3.8 million. and Jozy re-signed for a bit higher.
    Both well above what a player like Valeri is worth.

    Second - Giovinco was a fluke signing for TFC. The stars aligned and we were presented with an opportunity to sign a phenomenal player. So they did.
    Don't kid yourself if that type of player comes up again - TFC wouldn't make that move. If a player is worth $6million - TFC will pay it if they feel it's worth it.
    That’s not what they said. They said “competitive”. And “prudent”. So unfortunately they won’t be paying for a Giovinco who is to “Win” and is not “prudent”.

    My 2¥ anyway. Win if you can, but make sure it’s within budget is what those words mean.
    A decent budget. But not a bloody big deal budget.

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    Pity Martinez was a sure fire barnburner when signed and he had way better numbers and pedigree on paper than Jozy, Poz, or pretty much anyone else not named Zlatan or Rooney in MLS. Look at him. Trash.

    You can build a squad around players like Valeri or Loderio no problem because two teams who recently won MLS Cups did. Even Vela is only on $4.5M. By the standards you mentioned above he would fall in the lower teir of DP players but he is only lower than Jozy and what Seba got because of money. He is far above both on the pitch where it matters. Paying a guy like Vela $4.5 is what I consider prudent.
    Last edited by Ultra & Proud; 08-02-2019 at 12:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Follow the convo man.
    I didn't agree with this statement:



    You don't build a competitive team going after player like Valeri or BWP. Valeri's and BWP's were players teams took a chance on. Players who didn't stand out previously to joining the league (Valeri was a loan deal to start BTW) You don't go sign a DV or BWP and say - "We are going to build around this guy"...Pozuelo you do.

    Pozuelo had pedigree before coming here. There was a higher percent guarantee he was going to work out one way or another in this league vs DV or BWP. You give guys like Pozuelo $4-$6 million contracts because you pretty much know what you're getting.

    Valeri and BWP are excellent in this league now that they've played here - but don't kid yourself and say they are the same player as Pozuelo or Altiodre. They are exceptions to the rule. Flukes. Happy surprises. TFC are not going to focus on that type of signing for their big guns.
    Spot on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Follow the convo man.
    I didn't agree with this statement:



    You don't build a competitive team going after player like Valeri or BWP. Valeri's and BWP's were players teams took a chance on. Players who didn't stand out previously to joining the league (Valeri was a loan deal to start BTW) You don't go sign a DV or BWP and say - "We are going to build around this guy"...Pozuelo you do.

    Pozuelo had pedigree before coming here. There was a higher percent guarantee he was going to work out one way or another in this league vs DV or BWP. You give guys like Pozuelo $4-$6 million contracts because you pretty much know what you're getting.

    Valeri and BWP are excellent in this league now that they've played here - but don't kid yourself and say they are the same player as Pozuelo or Altiodre. They are exceptions to the rule. Flukes. Happy surprises. TFC are not going to focus on that type of signing for their big guns.
    Valeri, who was a hyped prospect, had a big move to Europe and three caps for Argentina, prior to moving to Portland, didnt stand out previously?

    Ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Valeri, who was a hyped prospect, had a big move to Europe and three caps for Argentina, prior to moving to Portland, didnt stand out previously?

    Ok.
    Are you implying he wasn’t discovered once an MLS team put him on their chalkboard discovery list?

    By extension, are you implying Seattle didn’t invent the glorious sport of soccer?

    Shame on you! Respect the narrative!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Valeri, who was a hyped prospect, had a big move to Europe and three caps for Argentina, prior to moving to Portland, didnt stand out previously?

    Ok.
    GTFO - he had a small run in Argentina at the right time and played on an Argentine team made up of local players - don't make it seem like he was part of the full argentine national team.

    He did squat at Porto - I don't even think he made the pitch.

    if he was such a hot prospect he wouldn't have been loaned out on a constant basis after he left Argentina.

    He came here and broke out. Portland took a chance and got lucky.

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    Latest Pravda is insightful. A lot of Rewriting of history too “Vannney realized that the 3-5-2 wasn’t good enough so decided to go to a 4-3-4 and play like Man City” - the best team in MLS history not good enough? Vanney planned to dump Seba?? I call BS on that.

    But It does say Oso, Deleon and Marky are now down the pecking order and might be traded. Interesting
    Last edited by MightyDM; 08-02-2019 at 04:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Latest Pravda is insightful. A lot of Tewriting if history too “Vannney realized that the 3-5-2 wasn’t good enough so decided to go to a 4-3-4 and play like Man City” - the best team in MLS history not good enough? Vanney planned to dump Seba?? I call BS on that.

    But It does say Oso, Deleon and Marky are now down the pecking order and might be traded. Interesting
    I can see Deleon and Marky getting traded, but I think Oso's a tough one, he's on a pretty hefty contract at this point and hasn't really lived up to it so far this year. He tends to go invisible for long stretches of games, and offers very little when it comes to playing defensively and in transitions. What's more tough is that he doesn't look like he's got a spot in the starting XI anymore with Poz, Gallardo (if he exists) and Benzenet likely occupying the starting attacking roles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubbs View Post
    I can see Deleon and Marky getting traded, but I think Oso's a tough one, he's on a pretty hefty contract at this point and hasn't really lived up to it so far this year. He tends to go invisible for long stretches of games, and offers very little when it comes to playing defensively and in transitions. What's more tough is that he doesn't look like he's got a spot in the starting XI anymore with Poz, Gallardo (if he exists) and Benzenet likely occupying the starting attacking roles.
    It’ll be a lot of work to replace a bunch of players then, and the Hamilton for Mullins school of MLS trades isn’t going to get us better players than Deleon or Marky in general in those roles, I suspect.

    Nico can play on the wing, but he can also play where Osorio, Pozo and Chapman play as well. Chapman is dead weight at this point. Osorio hasn’t shown much in the way of justifying his new contract, as you’ve mentioned, but if he doesn’t perform they also won’t be able get rid of him on a TAM salary.

    It’s a bit of a quandary, because Osorio doesn’t really fit in unless he becomes faster and defensively competent, which doesn’t seem likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Latest Pravda is insightful. A lot of Tewriting if history too “Vannney realized that the 3-5-2 wasn’t good enough so decided to go to a 4-3-4 and play like Man City” - the best team in MLS history not good enough? Vanney planned to dump Seba?? I call BS on that.

    But It does say Oso, Deleon and Marky are now down the pecking order and might be traded. Interesting
    I think Delgado has worked himself back into the starting XI as a decent piece. He's the only other midfielder besides Bradley with any legit defensive ability. But he does have league value. I'd prefer he stay.

    Deleon worked his value up from previous years and is a player I could see other teams interested in. If the two TAM signings both pan out then he will be a bit buried but he is a jack of all trades guy and could be useful.

    Osorio might be the odd man out. I have trouble seeing him working his way back into the starting XI but he could do a job in helping lock down matches as a sub with his possession. I just think his salary is a bit rich for that role. I also can't see any takers for him on his salary unless Lenarduzzi is drunk again and makes another bad move.

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    Oso has also been injured and played in the gold Cup. He's fine and won't go anywhere. Everyone is so quick to turn on players here. We have a dearth of midfield options. Not a bad thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossington Mental Youth View Post
    Oso has also been injured and played in the gold Cup. He's fine and won't go anywhere. Everyone is so quick to turn on players here. We have a dearth of midfield options. Not a bad thing
    Oso needs minutes with a first choice lineup. I hope Vanney isn’t sitting him to play Benezet, and is not blaming him for the inconsistency in our play this year. That's been 100% a problem with the backline.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Oso needs minutes with a first choice lineup. I hope Vanney isn’t sitting him to play Benezet, and is not blaming him for the inconsistency in our play this year. That's been 100% a problem with the backline.
    I blame him for being one of the main offenders in slowing down play though. Unless he fixes that, he shouldn't be starting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossington Mental Youth View Post
    Oso has also been injured and played in the gold Cup. He's fine and won't go anywhere. Everyone is so quick to turn on players here. We have a dearth of midfield options. Not a bad thing
    Can’t turn on someone I never liked. That said, his performance justified a raise.

    Jury’s out this year as he hasn’t played enough to judge, but I don’t see him as worth keeping on that salary unless Vanney has some sort of very creative midfield planned for his wide-play-wingerstravaganza.

    No point in him sitting on the bench as a TAM player.

    Though the team has played different formations since the season began, Vanney has forced the wing play even with no actual wingers, so it seems like that’s what he’s going with. Maybe Osorio can reinvent himself a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossington Mental Youth View Post
    Oso has also been injured and played in the gold Cup. He's fine and won't go anywhere. Everyone is so quick to turn on players here. We have a dearth of midfield options. Not a bad thing
    Also, Oso right now is our fourth best player after Poz, Jozy and the General. The wingers will have to be pretty good to be better than that. He can play if its 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-2-3 (which Vanney may prefer but if MB's range is declining a bit as Caldwell has suggested would be foolish IMO) or if Vanney only wants one winger. But he has some competition right now. He still combines brilliantly with Poz, head and shoulders above anyone else currently on the roster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    Can’t turn on someone I never liked. That said, his performance justified a raise.

    Jury’s out this year as he hasn’t played enough to judge, but I don’t see him as worth keeping on that salary unless Vanney has some sort of very creative midfield planned for his wide-play-wingerstravaganza.

    No point in him sitting on the bench as a TAM player.

    Though the team has played different formations since the season began, Vanney has forced the wing play even with no actual wingers, so it seems like that’s what he’s going with. Maybe Osorio can reinvent himself a bit.

    Unlike some others here, I am a huge fan of Oso. His offensive skills and defensive work rate are both under appreciated, IMO.

    But if Pravda is saying "Vanney now has the parts he wants to go 4-3-3- like Man City" and then names the starting 11 without Oso, Deleon and Delagado, then that's what Vanney is thinking. And those are all starters in this league. And Pravda goes on to say they may need to move to a different team. So thats a message from the club.

    Oso reinvented himself once. He'll do it again. He has the ability.
    Last edited by MightyDM; 08-02-2019 at 05:38 PM.

 

 

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