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  1. #2851
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Yes. He was fine but dreamland to think he’s ready to take over from the best player in US history.
    Bradley isn’t the best player in US history. Right now I’m not sure he is even in their best 11 if Tyler Adams is healthy. He was a great player but hes not a DP. What kind of player could you get with 6.5 mill a season? Def someone who would impact the game more than what Bradley does right now. Look what were getting with Pozuelo and he makes like 4.5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    Bradley isn’t the best player in US history. Right now I’m not sure he is even in their best 11 if Tyler Adams is healthy. He was a great player but hes not a DP. What kind of player could you get with 6.5 mill a season? Def someone who would impact the game more than what Bradley does right now. Look what were getting with Pozuelo and he makes like 4.5.
    What heís worth is a different question than whether Fraser is ready to take over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    Bradley isn’t the best player in US history. Right now I’m not sure he is even in their best 11 if Tyler Adams is healthy.
    This is insane. Bradley was Best XI for the entire Gold Cup tournament.

  4. #2854
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    Fraser agility has improved, but he is still too static for the role. He needs to get way better.

  5. #2855
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    If Bradley accepts a TAM deals we can get another DP attacking option our team could be a real incredible contender next year. Assuming Gallardo plays well enough as well.

  6. #2856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    Did you watch him play? Some games he was one of the best guys on the field. His passing is off the charts.

    One of the best players on what was clearly a sub par team. So yes, around lower quality players he stood out and did a solid job by doing the basics well.

    But basics don't win you championships.

    With Bradley and the others back in the lineup, the game has elevated 10 fold. Fraser would not be able to live up to this standard. His play on the pitch and his inexperience is enough evidence for that.
    Fraser is still a kid - not a leader like Bradley and not able to step up just yet. Last thing you want to do with a kid like that is throw all the responsibility on his shoulders without giving him a chance to develop.

    Look at Bono - great example of someone who just wasn't 100% ready. Had one great season behind an exceptional lineup, was thrown in as a starting keeper, and a year later has now lost his number 1 spot for the foreseeable future. This is what happens when you throw kids into starting roles when they are not ready, Sure - Bono looked ready, and I'm sure he'll get his starting position back next season, but when the going got tough, he folded - and he folded badly.

    Fraiser is 21, not 25. If he were to become a starter next year he'd need to perform no matter what the lineup was and if he didn't, he'd be raked over the coals for not performing and sent to the CPL. People would be calling for his head and he'd probably fold under the pressure like most kids who were thrown to the lions in this city. That's a totally unfair position to put a young player in. It's an asshole move IMO

    enough with this nonsense about Fraser being a starter. It's just poorly thought through enthusiasm.

  7. #2857
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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakTFC View Post
    If Bradley accepts a TAM deals we can get another DP attacking option our team could be a real incredible contender next year. Assuming Gallardo plays well enough as well.
    It would take this FO 2 weeks x 20 to find a replacement DP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    One of the best players on what was clearly a sub par team. So yes, around lower quality players he stood out and did a solid job by doing the basics well.

    But basics don't win you championships.

    With Bradley and the others back in the lineup, the game has elevated 10 fold. Fraser would not be able to live up to this standard. His play on the pitch and his inexperience is enough evidence for that.
    Fraser is still a kid - not a leader like Bradley and not able to step up just yet. Last thing you want to do with a kid like that is throw all the responsibility on his shoulders without giving him a chance to develop.

    Look at Bono - great example of someone who just wasn't 100% ready. Had one great season behind an exceptional lineup, was thrown in as a starting keeper, and a year later has now lost his number 1 spot for the foreseeable future. This is what happens when you throw kids into starting roles when they are not ready, Sure - Bono looked ready, and I'm sure he'll get his starting position back next season, but when the going got tough, he folded - and he folded badly.

    Fraiser is 21, not 25. If he were to become a starter next year he'd need to perform no matter what the lineup was and if he didn't, he'd be raked over the coals for not performing and sent to the CPL. People would be calling for his head and he'd probably fold under the pressure like most kids who were thrown to the lions in this city. That's a totally unfair position to put a young player in. It's an asshole move IMO

    enough with this nonsense about Fraser being a starter. It's just poorly thought through enthusiasm.
    I would like to see Fraser start beside Bradley in a 4-2-3-1 formation. His passing is better than Delgado's and he can win a tackle which I have never seen Delagdo achieve.

  9. #2859
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Last thing you want to do with a kid like that is throw all the responsibility on his shoulders without giving him a chance to develop.
    Andrea Lombardo was an early example of this. He never was properly mentored. Some people think he could have turned into a real talent if he had been given the chance for properly being mentored and gradually moved into first team play.

    I agree with you, last thing we need to do is repeat that mistake yet again.

    OTOH some people are just ready, but even with those they need to be careful. Shaff already looks like the real deal, he just shouldn't be over played, he's still developing.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-19-2019 at 11:50 AM.
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

    Supporting since 2007


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    Quote Originally Posted by A Stick View Post
    I would like to see Fraser start beside Bradley in a 4-2-3-1 formation. His passing is better than Delgado's and he can win a tackle which I have never seen Delagdo achieve.
    You can't have Faiser and Schaffelburg on the field at the same time though...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Andrea Lombardo was an early example of this. He never was properly mentored. Some people think he could have turned into a real talent if he had been given the chance for properly being mentored and gradually moved into first team play.

    I agree with you, last thing we need to do is repeat that mistake yet again.

    OTOH some people are just ready, but even with those they need to be careful. Shaff already looks like the real deal, he just shouldn't be over played, he's still developing.
    I agree with him we have to be careful. He is skilled and is fearless but you can see late in games as he is starting to get pushed around more, due to him being a young threat I am sure, that there is a little frustration there too for him. He has to be able to develop as he goes in a gradual manner so there is no burn out with him feeling too much pressure on his shoulders so quickly. He could be great for years to come if he keeps it up and adds some more strength.

  12. #2862
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Why does everyone think Fraser is ready to start in MLS? He has a ways to go still. Would be a big drop-off from Bradley.
    This. Itís crazy. He is ready for lots of minutes, but no where near MB in quality. Strength up the middle. And you overpay for that, thatís the reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    Bradley isn’t the best player in US history. Right now I’m not sure he is even in their best 11 if Tyler Adams is healthy. He was a great player but hes not a DP. What kind of player could you get with 6.5 mill a season? Def someone who would impact the game more than what Bradley does right now. Look what were getting with Pozuelo and he makes like 4.5.
    The question is what kind of a player do you get for 1.2 million or whatever the TAM limit is. And itís not Bradley.

  14. #2864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Andrea Lombardo was an early example of this. He never was properly mentored. Some people think he could have turned into a real talent if he had been given the chance for properly being mentored and gradually moved into first team play.

    I agree with you, last thing we need to do is repeat that mistake yet again.

    OTOH some people are just ready, but even with those they need to be careful. Shaff already looks like the real deal, he just shouldn't be over played, he's still developing.
    This is pretty far away from Lombardo. I think thatís not the comparison to use in this circumstance to say the least.

    Andre Lombardo other than in very small glimmers never showed the promise of being a professional soccer player. He was done a further disservice by being put on a terribly run team and occasionally thrown to the wolves. It was tough to put him on the field without hurting the team.

    This is nothing like that. Weíre talking about inserting a player who seems very capable (and is proving to be capable in his time on the field) into a stable team.

    He needs to play. As a sub or in a starting system where he can strive. Not even being named to the team sheet if healthy (which appeared to be the case last game) is ridiculous.

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    Fraser needs to play. Totally. But not to replace Bradley. Maybe in three more seasons he can.

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    the irony in it all is that Bradley is getting paid for the qualities which have no value aka intangibles.

    and if people think that those qualities can be easily found or replaced by a kid thrown in the line up, you're dreaming.
    It's exactly those qualities that a guy like Fraser needs to be exposed to and learn from, and he's not there yet....may not be for a couple of years still.

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    After joining TFC, Delgado had 20 MLS appearances (19 starts) in his age 20 season and 28 appearances (23 starts) in his age 21 season. And in his first handful of games he looked worse than Fraser has this year.

    He doesn't need to start every game yet. But giving Fraser the "break glass in case of emergency" treatment behind Bradley for another full season is a mistake. Get him up around 15 starts this year at least and see what he does with it. A bit of load management would do Bradley some good too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Andrea Lombardo was an early example of this. He never was properly mentored. Some people think he could have turned into a real talent if he had been given the chance for properly being mentored and gradually moved into first team play.

    I agree with you, last thing we need to do is repeat that mistake yet again.
    But what about the mistake the other way? Jordan Hamilton started 28 games for TFC in his 6 years here. Jay Chapman started 27 in 5 years. Meanwhile, Delgado and Osorio each amassed more MLS starts and minutes in their first 1.5 seasons (when they were 20 or 21) than Hamilton and Chapman have to this point their whole careers. Is it any wonder which of these players have progressed and which haven't?

    You can't just park a guy on the bench like it's an incubator and turn around a few years later expecting a ready-made starter. They need to play and need to be given a real chance, not just garbage-time minutes here and there.

  18. #2868
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    After joining TFC, Delgado had 20 MLS appearances (19 starts) in his age 20 season and 28 appearances (23 starts) in his age 21 season. And in his first handful of games he looked worse than Fraser has this year.

    He doesn't need to start every game yet. But giving Fraser the "break glass in case of emergency" treatment behind Bradley for another full season is a mistake. Get him up around 15 starts this year at least and see what he does with it. A bit of load management would do Bradley some good too.



    But what about the mistake the other way? Jordan Hamilton started 28 games for TFC in his 6 years here. Jay Chapman started 27 in 5 years. Meanwhile, Delgado and Osorio each amassed more MLS starts and minutes in their first 1.5 seasons (when they were 20 or 21) than Hamilton and Chapman have to this point their whole careers. Is it any wonder which of these players have progressed and which haven't?

    You can't just park a guy on the bench like it's an incubator and turn around a few years later expecting a ready-made starter. They need to play and need to be given a real chance, not just garbage-time minutes here and there.
    Completely agree. But we still need Bradley.

  19. #2869
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    Quote Originally Posted by notthesun View Post
    After joining TFC, Delgado had 20 MLS appearances (19 starts) in his age 20 season and 28 appearances (23 starts) in his age 21 season. And in his first handful of games he looked worse than Fraser has this year.

    He doesn't need to start every game yet. But giving Fraser the "break glass in case of emergency" treatment behind Bradley for another full season is a mistake. Get him up around 15 starts this year at least and see what he does with it. A bit of load management would do Bradley some good too.



    But what about the mistake the other way? Jordan Hamilton started 28 games for TFC in his 6 years here. Jay Chapman started 27 in 5 years. Meanwhile, Delgado and Osorio each amassed more MLS starts and minutes in their first 1.5 seasons (when they were 20 or 21) than Hamilton and Chapman have to this point their whole careers. Is it any wonder which of these players have progressed and which haven't?

    You can't just park a guy on the bench like it's an incubator and turn around a few years later expecting a ready-made starter. They need to play and need to be given a real chance, not just garbage-time minutes here and there.
    Don't forget - Oso was playing on a really crappy TFC club in those early years. Collectively TFC was shit and because of that situation, his faults and failures were not seen as detrimental to the clubs success.
    Marky Delgado had 2 solid years of first team action with crappy Chivas before he came to TFC. So he too was able to fuck up at the first team level without much issue.

    In those early years - Marky and Oso showed quality whenever they were called upon. Rarely did we sit there and think they were the odd men out.

    On the other hand Hamilton at 23 years old rarely showed quality - missing clear cut chances or just being invisible altogether. His progress stagnated and regressed last year under the pressure of an under maned team.

    Chapman at 25 just hasn't shown the maturity. He'll always be an MLS bench/ bit player or CanPL starter.

    At 19 and 21 - Shaffelburg and Fraiser are in the prime for development. They will be getting playing time during Canadian Championship matches and when there is match congestion. They'll also see action when the team is comfortably leading / owning a game.

    That's the first step - if they can come in to those situations and consistently do the job - not be above and beyond, just do the job - and show progress - then you'll start to see playing time shift in their favour.

    That's 2-3 years away IMO

    Shaffelburg could be a starter at 22. Fraiser at 24

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Don't forget - Oso was playing on a really crappy TFC club in those early years. Collectively TFC was shit and because of that situation, his faults and failures were not seen as detrimental to the clubs success.
    Marky Delgado had 2 solid years of first team action with crappy Chivas before he came to TFC. So he too was able to fuck up at the first team level without much issue.

    In those early years - Marky and Oso showed quality whenever they were called upon. Rarely did we sit there and think they were the odd men out.

    On the other hand Hamilton at 23 years old rarely showed quality - missing clear cut chances or just being invisible altogether. His progress stagnated and regressed last year under the pressure of an under maned team.

    Chapman at 25 just hasn't shown the maturity. He'll always be an MLS bench/ bit player or CanPL starter.

    At 19 and 21 - Shaffelburg and Fraiser are in the prime for development. They will be getting playing time during Canadian Championship matches and when there is match congestion. They'll also see action when the team is comfortably leading / owning a game.

    That's the first step - if they can come in to those situations and consistently do the job - not be above and beyond, just do the job - and show progress - then you'll start to see playing time shift in their favour.

    That's 2-3 years away IMO

    Shaffelburg could be a starter at 22. Fraiser at 24
    Pretty good argument for loaning Fraser out to get starts, TBH. We aren't a developmental team now like we were when Osorio broke in.

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    My main concern for Shaff is his safety. Guy plays with no fear whatsoever and seems to go for challenges others shy away from. That and he gets hacked a lot.

    He needs to look after himself because he has the potential to be a legend here.

  22. #2872
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    Pretty good argument for loaning Fraser out to get starts, TBH. We aren't a developmental team now like we were when Osorio broke in.
    CanPL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magmadragon View Post
    My main concern for Shaff is his safety. Guy plays with no fear whatsoever and seems to go for challenges others shy away from. That and he gets hacked a lot.

    He needs to look after himself because he has the potential to be a legend here.
    you are so right. He had the sh*t kicked out of him a couple of games ago.

  24. #2874
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Don't forget - Oso was playing on a really crappy TFC club in those early years. Collectively TFC was shit and because of that situation, his faults and failures were not seen as detrimental to the clubs success.
    Marky Delgado had 2 solid years of first team action with crappy Chivas before he came to TFC. So he too was able to fuck up at the first team level without much issue.

    In those early years - Marky and Oso showed quality whenever they were called upon. Rarely did we sit there and think they were the odd men out.

    On the other hand Hamilton at 23 years old rarely showed quality - missing clear cut chances or just being invisible altogether. His progress stagnated and regressed last year under the pressure of an under maned team.

    Chapman at 25 just hasn't shown the maturity. He'll always be an MLS bench/ bit player or CanPL starter.

    At 19 and 21 - Shaffelburg and Fraiser are in the prime for development. They will be getting playing time during Canadian Championship matches and when there is match congestion. They'll also see action when the team is comfortably leading / owning a game.

    That's the first step - if they can come in to those situations and consistently do the job - not be above and beyond, just do the job - and show progress - then you'll start to see playing time shift in their favour.

    That's 2-3 years away IMO

    Shaffelburg could be a starter at 22. Fraiser at 24
    i think this is harsh on Chapman. He has played very well this year

  25. #2875
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    Quote Originally Posted by bought with blo View Post
    If Bradley moves in MLS we get compensated.
    This is the last year of his contract - we would get nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    wut?
    Sorry, typo. I meant LW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    This is the last year of his contract - we would get nothing.
    Only if Bradley opts for the reentry draft (which would not allow him to choose where to go), otherwise TFC continues to hold Bradley's MLS rights. Bradley doesn't have enough MLS experience to be a free agent. I think he wants to stay in North America and wants to choose where he goes so TFC has some leverage.

    Of course Bradley would still have options outside of MLS worldwide as a USMNT player, and there would be no transfer fee for that. I don't think that's the most likely scenario.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-20-2019 at 08:12 AM.

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    At the end of the day if Bradley wants to continue to play in MLS and has a preferred destination the league will make it happen.

    You can still get away with holding the smaller players hostage on bargaining rights but stars, not so much.

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    We're playing Houston tonight. it's calling for rain. The only logical strategy would be bring back Andy Welsh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Only if Bradley opts for the reentry draft (which would not allow him to choose where to go), otherwise TFC continues to hold Bradley's MLS rights. Bradley doesn't have enough MLS experience to be a free agent. I think he wants to stay in North America and wants to choose where he goes so TFC has some leverage.

    Of course Bradley would still have options outside of MLS worldwide as a USMNT player, and there would be no transfer fee for that. I don't think that's the most likely scenario.
    I just watched the Montreal game, where Bradley was immense. I think Manning is softening us up to let him go but in the end they will bring him back, possibly something like 1 year DP at an inflated salary but then TAM. The financial challenge is that he is worth more than TAM but less than what he is paid now - this or some other creativity would be a way to average what he might get elsewhere and that way he could retire a Red. There is a lot of value in that as a club statement. For example, if he is worth 2.5 million/ yr on a three year deal elsewhere Toronto could pay him something like 4 million next year and the 1.5 and 1.5 so he is TAM thereafter.

    My my main point being there is a deal to be made if the parties are willing.

    And that the club should keep Bradley.

 

 

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