CCL Rnd of 16 Leg 2 - Independiente @ TFC Tuesday Feb 26 8pm - What Now?

[OgtheDim]

I don't.

I do know we had grass in March before. As I said, if this pitch is this bad on March 17th, they are not good enough.

[SirBobSaget]

Okay all you horticultural experts - what do you think they should have done?

I mean seriously. You're all complaining and some are actually calling for a man to be fired, so if all knew exactly how to grow grass in -10 degree weather please enlighten the rest of us.

Should have played the game at the Ontario Soccer Center and refund tickets. What a disgrace getting run over by a Panama team when Preki and Winter got passed Panama teams easily with way inferior squads.

[James17930]

Should have played the game at the Ontario Soccer Center and refund tickets. What a disgrace getting run over by a Panama team when Preki and Winter got passed Panama teams easily with way inferior squads.

This has nothing to do with the BMO pitch. We were already basically out of it from the last match.

[69Chevy396]

I’ll give you Mrky never quit. But you are being incredibly hard on Oso. I was west side N end first half, E side south end second, and he played right in front of me the whole game. Played very well and almost brought off some very tricky tap and goes near the penalty area, which was needed against the camel defense. Fair to say he didn’t pull it off but he linked up very well and made the aggressive efforts - exactly what he should have been doing. I wouldn’t even agree with ineffective but that’s as strong as would be a fair criticism, particularly on a pitch and with a ball that both hampered skill.

Everybody played on the same horrible pitch, and for sure, it made dribbling difficult, but watching Osorio doing the same unproductive and predictable moves throughout the game was annoying. He needed to step up and execute, and he didn’t. He seemed to lose the ball whenever he got too close to a defender, and none of his attempts at goal were any good. I got used to that pre 2018, and applauded his surprising turnaround last year. But tonight he looked lost.

[MightyDM]

Everybody played on the same horrible pitch, and for sure, it made dribbling difficult, but watching Osorio doing the same unproductive and predictable moves throughout the game was annoying. He needed to step up and execute, and he didn’t. He seemed to lose the ball whenever he got too close to a defender, and none of his attempts at goal were any good. I got used to that pre 2018, and applauded his surprising turnaround last year. But tonight he looked lost.

Tonight he was playing against 1-1-8, as was the whole team. This made them look both in control and devoid of ideas. To me it’s harsh to criticize Oso (or Marky or DeLeon) who tried very hard to create against a mass defense. It’s also hard to take anything away from the game, except for Hamilton and Akinola, for the same reason - playing against 1-1-8 it is very easy to keep possession but hard to penetrate the defense. ( even for Seba. And none of them are Seba. )

[ag futbol]

Not his greatest game but some people search for the “Osorio sucks” narrative as often as they can. I don’t think he was the biggest issue out there.

This team misses Edwards. Our wide play still sucks. For the one or two times Morrow gets a shot on net or finds Hamilton in the box, 20 other times he simply cycles the ball backwards when he should take the chance to attack. Auro plays around on the ball too much and kills every play. Something has to change if we are going to break the standard “beat TFC” game plan of defending centrally and leaving tons of space in wide areas (knowing we’ll never use it).


I thought Hamilton was encouraging and showed initiative. It’s not like anybody really occupied their attention attack wise and he still found space. Not the easiest header to score either.

I pray the Ciman I thought I saw for other clubs does not continue to appear. Still waiting for that “defender of the year” form.

[Gringo Starr]

Hamilton looked good, hopefully he finds minutes and can finally put together a breakout season. I thought Endoh looked good in his brief time on the pitch, he looked like a much more confident player and maybe a decent depth guy.

[DinamoTFC]

Positive signs from Hamilton and deleon tonight.

Will re evaluate the rest after Philly match on a better field (hopefully) and now having 2 games under our belt.

[Auzzy]

Yes. Fuck that pitch. When's this hybrid supposed to be installed?

I have to admit one thing, at least I didn't see any chunks of grass come up tonight. However I just don't understand why they had to put so much sand on it.

Sadly the hybrid won't help with the (lack of) thickness of the grass; nor will it deal with the excessive sand. I wonder if they can vacuum up some of the sand? Just guessing, maybe they're hoping that more grass will grow & the pitch will get more lush by the home opener.

They hybrid is supposed to be installed in April; groundskeeper confirmed it in a reply to a tweet yesterday. Hybrid will help make the surface stronger; & prevent chunks from coming up. Beyond that the grass just has to grow thicker. Fingers crossed it gets better within a few weeks.

One thing I did not understand tonight, especially on a slow / sandy surface: TFC players were making many of their passes way too close to the CAI players. Latter didn't do much overall, but they were good at intercepting those lame passes.

[Derko]

At least last nights match was watchable, even with the pitch conditions, everything had to be perfect for a miracle, and it wasn't, so farewell to CCL, looking forward to the new season with
our new players. Past successes and players are good memories to recollect over a beer, not hinder my support for the new season, and a changed team

[69Chevy396]

Not his greatest game but some people search for the “Osorio sucks” narrative as often as they can. I don’t think he was the biggest issue out there.

This team misses Edwards. Our wide play still sucks. For the one or two times Morrow gets a shot on net or finds Hamilton in the box, 20 other times he simply cycles the ball backwards when he should take the chance to attack. Auro plays around on the ball too much and kills every play. Something has to change if we are going to break the standard “beat TFC” game plan of defending centrally and leaving tons of space in wide areas (knowing we’ll never use it).


I thought Hamilton was encouraging and showed initiative. It’s not like anybody really occupied their attention attack wise and he still found space. Not the easiest header to score either.

I pray the Ciman I thought I saw for other clubs does not continue to appear. Still waiting for that “defender of the year” form.

I have said it often, Osorio had a great year in 2018. It followed many years of mediocrity. He was rewarded with a big contract based on 2018. But, the question remains, did mgmt sign that cheque with the belief that his surprising accomplishments were a predictor of future years success? Did they rule out the possibility (my view) that he (like Morrow in 2017), benefited from playing with a less selfish Seba, and VV who threaded him exquisite passes all year?
Hopefully, thisnew player Poz will pick up where VV and Seba left off, and Osorio will return to 2018 form. But, no way anyone can observe Osorio’s performance in these past 2 games, and not compare it to 2017.

[James17930]

At least last nights match was watchable, even with the pitch conditions, everything had to be perfect for a miracle, and it wasn't, so farewell to CCL, looking forward to the new season with
our new players. Past successes and players are good memories to recollect over a beer, not hinder my support for the new season, and a changed team

Yes, at least we looked something like our old selves (though still a long way to go, obviously).

[flambe]

I have to admit one thing, at least I didn't see any chunks of grass come up tonight. However I just don't understand why they had to put so much sand on it.

Sand on the surface typically prevents the formation of mud and leads to an increase in the tolerance of wear on the grass roots. I'm guessing they figured so much sand would help counteract the roots being ripped out, and considering the conditions are great for regrowth right now. I did seem a little "beachy" though, maybe they thought the more sand the better and just went crazy.

[flatpicker]

While it's disappointing the way these two games played out, I'm also sort of relieved that the team doesn't have to split its attention between CCL and MLS. They are going through big changes as a team and it's probably best to just focus on that and the regular season. I love Champions League, and it would have been a high priority for me if this team was stable and strong. But that's simply not the case right now.

[Hamilton_Red]

we should have had 3 goals in the first half. if we had for the second - momentum would have built. Hamilton tried hard and was promising & I really hope he makes it. there were bad misses Morrow through on goal... etc. maybe the pitch was the reason for the dificulty scoring. IMO it was a huge lack in quality. without Jozy and Seba in the line-up this team over thw last few years would have always struggled. We really need those TAM players.

[69Chevy396]

we should have had 3 goals in the first half. if we had for the second - momentum would have built. Hamilton tried hard and was promising & I really hope he makes it. there were bad misses Morrow through on goal... etc. maybe the pitch was the reason for the dificulty scoring. IMO it was a huge lack in quality. without Jozy and Seba in the line-up this team over thw last few years would have always struggled. We really need those TAM players.

More than a few are needed. Without Seba, VV,, Cheyrou, Beit, Edwards, and younger version of Bradley, and Moor, this current team is correctly placed at 7-9th in the East division. If Altidore misses many games due to injury, it will be very ugly. Aside from Mavinga, and potentially the new Poz, do any of our players start on a Redbulls, Atlanta team?

[Still Kicking]

There was a moment, early in the game against CAI, that I saw a rare thing on my tv, Michael Bradley high up in attack actually deep in the other's team goal area. It gave me hope for the game. Alas, it faded.
A persistent problem for TFC is the lack of creative attack, shots on target and goals, from the midfield. If I was preparing to defend against TFC, I would say worry not about Osorio, Delgado and Bradley taking ANY shots from distance. They will ALWAYS defer to one more pass forward, into close quarters, into the crowd of defenders. They will NEVER make a move to create space for their own shot. When your strikers are 19 year old Akinola and 22 year old Hamilton (who is running out of chances to stick to the TFC roster) the forever hopeful passing of the midfield trio just seemed against the odds.
I thought that DeLeon showed some attack creativity, Morrow made many left wing runs and Endoh provided some late game spark moments.
I understand defending and tracking back. But the game vs CAI was clearly a test of TFC's offensive capacity. They failed. Anyone thinking that Altidore and Alejandro Pozuelo can be the only providers of goals and shots and creativity going forward is going to be let down. Something has to give with the TFC midfield. A change will be required...

[Canary10]

Call me crazy, but I felt relieved after that game. I saw signs in our midfield of the team that could control the play and the possession. I think a string-puller in the mid, and Jozy back will make a massive difference. No sky falling comments from me.

I think we need to figure out our formation. I don't see this being a a 4-3-3 team unless we get two quality wingers, and I'm not sure even then. But let's figure that out so these TAM signings we are supposedly getting aren't wasted.

Then let's figure out the backline. I don't think Ciman and Mavinga make a good pair. This will ultimately lead to a hard decision for Vanney to sit one of them regularly. But I just don't think together they are solution. Which means a lot will ride on Drew Moor and his health.

[Cas87]

Call me crazy, but I felt relieved after that game. I saw signs in our midfield of the team that could control the play and the possession. I think a string-puller in the mid, and Jozy back will make a massive difference. No sky falling comments from me.

I think we need to figure out our formation. I don't see this being a a 4-3-3 team unless we get two quality wingers, and I'm not sure even then. But let's figure that out so these TAM signings we are supposedly getting aren't wasted.

Then let's figure out the backline. I don't think Ciman and Mavinga make a good pair. This will ultimately lead to a hard decision for Vanney to sit one of them regularly. But I just don't think together they are solution. Which means a lot will ride on Drew Moor and his health.

I felt the same.
DeLeon in the midfield really seemed to help last night, just needed a better finishing presence in the box (Jozy or even Hagglund!).

Pozzo coming in with a healthy Jozy will be a shot in the arm for sure for this team.
Ciman (bone-headed mistake last night aside) seems to be getting better chemistry with Mavinga (and Morrow for that matter).
Moor coming back in to the backline would help as well (3-5-2, or 5-3-2 the first few games in MLS will be great)

[GerMc]

Like a few have said already, I think this was a vast improvement over last week. There was a spark and drive to the players that was absent a week ago, and we could easily have been up 2 or 3 goals at the half with some more clinical finishing. The 4-4-2 made a lot more sense and there were some promising performances last night, like Delgado and Hamilton, any my hope is that they build on this. I also thought DeLeon brought some urgency to the field, which we sorely needed.

I also agree with the view that we are probably better off out of the CCL at this point, given where we are. Let's get Poz on the field, as well as Altidore (and maybe a TAM signing), and then let's take stock. I do think that we need to do something about the defence--maybe it is Moor being back or some coaching for Ciman and Mavinga about how to play better together. I am not a huge fan of Zavaleta, but it would be interesting to see if he can shake off last year and get back his 2017 form, which while not great, was better than what we are seeing on the field now.

BTW, one other point about the many comments about how some players only looked good because of Seba and VV. I don't think this is fair. While it sounds obvious, most players will play better when on the field with high quality talent (Osorio and Delgado in particular). And when the team is struggling, most players will struggle, particularly mid-fielders like Osorio and Delgado. I think the test for them is when we do have Poz and Jozy back out on the field, so see if the midfield can risk to their level of play. As I note above, the defence is a whole different kettle of fish.

I think we will need to take a slightly longer view--hope we hit our best form in the second half of the year and then take some momentum into the playoffs.

Just my two cents.

[OgtheDim]

Akinola - put himself about - not the finished product but has the makings of a servicable MLS banger. Was always trying to play off the shoulder of the last defender, and was open a lot for that pass. I suspect on a proper pitch where you can weight the pass, he'd get those chances.

He had to be accounted for & that is an important measure for a young striker.

[Hamilton_Red]

We will have a real view of the team on Saturday. The reality is that we need a big look at the back 4. We gave up the most goals in the league last year & it is possible that we are weaker now than before.
Independiente took 5 goals from us in the first ever two games in CONCACAF play.

We've lost Van der Wiel and Haglund, Drew Moor is 35 and coming back from only played 8 games last season, Morrow has had a noticeable drop in form.

We have Auro, Mavinga, Zavaletta, Morrow and now Ciman(33) that make up the defence. We needed a CB last season and now we need even more drastic surgery.

This is the most difficult issue for Vanney/Ali to sort out. On top of that we have Bono who has regressed substantially and lost confidence. It is not clear that the back-ups are serious options - they have no track record of it.

We need to really sort out the defence as a priority over luxury wingers.

[Red CB Toronto]

Guess in some ways the team that was fielded in the last two games was TFCII ( :

[MightyDM]

I have said it often, Osorio had a great year in 2018. It followed many years of mediocrity. He was rewarded with a big contract based on 2018. But, the question remains, did mgmt sign that cheque with the belief that his surprising accomplishments were a predictor of future years success? Did they rule out the possibility (my view) that he (like Morrow in 2017), benefited from playing with a less selfish Seba, and VV who threaded him exquisite passes all year?
Hopefully, thisnew player Poz will pick up where VV and Seba left off, and Osorio will return to 2018 form. But, no way anyone can observe Osorio’s performance in these past 2 games, and not compare it to 2017.

There is no comparison whatsoever. Go back and look at the tapes of 2016 and 2017. Oso has a confidence he did not have then and he is a very different player. I also don’t get the piling on him when he is the least of our problems - he was head and shoulders our best player in the first half in Panama and did well last night, particularly given a frozen ball and a sandy pitch make his skill - skill - harder to use than say, Boyd’s (running and physical presence). He’s one of ours too, we should be supporting him.

[MightyDM]

Overall, last night we were an adequate MLS team. We completely controlled the game and surrendered only one or two chances. On the other hand, our opposition wasn’t trying to create chances. So that doesn’t tell us too much. The biggest takeaway? Losing an elite goal scorer has seriously damaged this team. The second biggest? Defense still needs work and given 1, we better be solid at the back. The third? We have decent players for a 4-2-3-1 or a 5-3-1-1 or a 4-4-2, but not for a 4-3-3. Jozy renewing his contract and Poz coming don’t really change this fact. We are more like Seattle of 2016 than TFC of 2017

[ensco]

We only “controlled” the game because the Panamanians parked the tanker (which they did pretty well). Half the time they just hoofed the ball anywhere.

There is zip we can learn from last night. That was a travesty, TFC charging money for that speaks poorly of them.

The field was a joke, the conditions were a joke, it shouldn’t have been played at all.

[69Chevy396]

There is no comparison whatsoever. Go back and look at the tapes of 2016 and 2017. Oso has a confidence he did not have then and he is a very different player. I also don’t get the piling on him when he is the least of our problems - he was head and shoulders our best player in the first half in Panama and did well last night, particularly given a frozen ball and a sandy pitch make his skill - skill - harder to use than say, Boyd’s (running and physical presence). He’s one of ours too, we should be supporting him.

I get it. However, until Altidore returns, Osorio, of all people, becomes our best player. At least, that is how he has been regarded,and treated by mgmt. Whenever Seba had a rare poor outing, or yelled at an official, or got a dumb card, everybody ganged up on him. Even now, prior fans are only remembering his emotional side and antics, and because he was thebest player, he remained the target when things went wrong. If Osorio is our best player, he needs to show it every game, and should not be forever protected as our Canadian wonderboy..the Panama forwards and attacking mids were better than him when they opened up, and despite freezing to death, they were handling the ball pretty well. Even Mavinga showed the occasional dribbling wizardry that was completely lacking in Osorio’s game. Having said this, Osorio will improve once better players are recruited.

[Red CB Toronto]

We only “controlled” the game because the Panamanians parked the tanker (which they did pretty well). Half the time they just hoofed the ball anywhere.

There is zip we can learn from last night. That was a travesty, TFC charging money for that speaks poorly of them.

The field was a joke, the conditions were a joke, it shouldn’t have been played at all.

Last night was one of the first times I wondered why I went. It was not compfortable at all even though I was bundled up. It was not that I was really all that cold, it was simply I was not having a good time. It is not the way I like to watch this team. Having been to Grey Cups, MLS Cups etc and the fact we are in Canadian, it get that weather will be a part of it. The 1996 Grey Cup in Hamilton was memorable but last night was one I want to forget, which I am sure I will. Play this game at the dome or elsewhere, simply as that.

[Smokecell]

Are the iniebriatti back? Thought I saw their flags/scarves after the first goal

I was a bit surprised by this myself. They were definitely there, albeit a bit thinner than usual. As an unbiased third party I have to give them some kudos, a team of about 10 or so of them somehow carried/pushed the capo stand from 117 to their section. Feeling the cold and seeing the forklift slots on the stand I thought they were nuts (I imagine they are crazy heavy). At the risk of hurting some feelings here it has to be said that their passion for supporting is second to none, they definitely brought it. For the sake of southend support I do hope the better behaved members can return in some capacity.

[Red CB Toronto]

I was a bit surprised by this myself. They were definitely there, albeit a bit thinner than usual. As an unbiased third party I have to give them some kudos, a team of about 10 or so of them somehow carried/pushed the capo stand from 117 to their section. Feeling the cold and seeing the forklift slots on the stand I thought they were nuts (I imagine they are crazy heavy). At the risk of hurting some feelings here it has to be said that their passion for supporting is second to none, they definitely brought it. For the sake of southend support I do hope the better behaved members can return in some capacity.

Essentially they have taken cover of the Original 109. The actually group itself is still no longer sanctioned by TFC, but when they returned the tickets to many of the indivials there is nothing they can do to stop them from joining/ working with another group. That is exactly what has happened.