Manning Failure listing Thread (formerly evaluation thread)

[ag futbol]

I was told quite specifically "we're looking domestic first, and at several up-and-comers." So it sounds very much like either a first-time MLS coach (I think they want another Nancy or Sartini) or a younger coach.



My sense is he has been working on changing Manning's approach from one of trust and connections to one based on analytics and hard numbers for several months. When Dodd left I was told Hernandez thought the scouting department was absolutely reliant on colleague recommendations, and doing very little based on statistical analysis.

Given that Bob also made light of the value of analytics, it sounds like the entire department was being ignored or neglected, despite its rep in the league.

Really, we had just become the archtype of an MLS 1.0 team, because that's who filled the front offices once he put Ali in charge.

The fact we were allowed to drift backwards and regress in the first place is concerning. But leaving that aside, my observation is that neither Hernandez or Manning have clearly articulated a vision of what they want to do with the analytics beyond "it's going to help us make decisions". It reminds me of so many scenarios in businesses these days where you have weak leadership but they try to stay topical by dropping buzzwords and superficially hoping people turn their brains off once they hear the message.

Almost every team in MLS is using analytics. Why is TFC's approach to analytics going to give us an advantage? That's the real question here.

[jloome]

Almost every team in MLS is using analytics. Why is TFC's approach to analytics going to give us an advantage? That's the real question here.

Not in scouting. A lot of MLS runs on who you know and who they know. It's why some teams have leaped ahead in terms of the quality of their middle-range salary foreign players.

And we quite specifically didn't rely on past successes as indicators of future potential success. We largely went with "who do we know who's seen him, what do they think."

Look at our youth "potential", these kids that were supposed to be so good Europe would be all over them. For the most part, they weren't producing goals, assists and wins at youth levels. Yeah, there was the odd run or good season relative to other kids (Peruzza had 15 goals one season in USL II) but there wasn', from the start of their teens on, relentless production.

There WAS that from players like Buchanan, Larin and Davies. They were all, to the eye, immediately competitive. The only ones of ours who meet that are probably DeAndre Kerr (who left and went to college in the States first) and Kobe Franklin, and I'd argue both will eventually be worth starters, rather than just guys who should be backups at this stage but are pushed forward.

And yet our people seemed assured they were going to "unlock" all that talent they saw. It's arrogant and foolish to assume kids who aren't stepping up during actual gameplay -- as opposed to raw shows of technique or skill -- are going to suddenly start doing it. Kids that have great potential tend to produce from a pretty early age. They may have other knocks against them -- size, strength, speed, intensity -- but their production levels are still high and they, crucially, do not seem overawed by changes in the game's speed.

They may have one down year or eighteen months as a 'blip' where we see that they can make the speed adjustment. But they have to be exceptionally talented at the "key" functions to be successful by the time their in their 20's, or they're likely journeymen footballers, relative to the level. And that's measurable in all sort of stat outputs.

[ag futbol]

I agree with you, our youth scouting is cooked. Everything about the way we train and bring youth players through looks flawed. Jacen Russell-Rowe is the most recent example I have to shake my head at. Not only is he superior to any youth striker we have currently, he's arguably as effective as any striker we have on the main roster and he's still only 20.

[Ultra & Proud]

Not only is he superior to any youth striker we have currently, he's arguably as effective as any striker we have on the main roster and he's still only 20.

To be fair we could re-sign Zavaleta & put him at striker and he would be no more useless than the rest of them.

[OgtheDim]

Considering TFCII has had 1 decent season ever, I would be open to a different approach to looking at talent.

[Red CB Toronto]

Considering TFCII has had 1 decent season ever, I would be open to a different approach to looking at talent.

I do not think TFC II is going anywhere as MLS Next Pro just launched at least in the near future, kind of wonder how long it will take for some teams to decide its not worth running a team in it similar to when Vancouver bailed on USL after a few seasons. Thing is you do not have the option to affiliate with a USL team anymore. DC, which recently sold their USL team is looking at joining MLSNP and Montreal marching to their own drummer fields theirs in the PLSQ.

I have always said that you are never developing 11 MLS ready players at one time, so while not sign a few veteran type players to help get the younger players to a better place.

[Ultra & Proud]

Can we change the topic title to Manning Failure Thread so we can just keep a running record of his misteps?

Like, the evaluation period is over and the results were not good.

[CorrwgBach]

Can we change the topic title to Manning Failure Thread so we can just keep a running record of his misteps?

Like, the evaluation period is over and the results were not good.

Making a Death Watch thread for Bradley worked out pretty well so either that or the "Failure"

[Oldtimer]

Can we change the topic title to Manning Failure Thread so we can just keep a running record of his misteps?

Like, the evaluation period is over and the results were not good.

Good idea! Done.

[Oldtimer]

Funny how the LA Galaxy can win their derby match against LAFC (81K in attendance! ) with all of those TFC castoffs: Chris Mavinga, Marky Delgado, Raheem Edwards... oh and yes, Greg Vanney.

Remember when TFC got attention in our city and won games? Seems like so long ago. Thanks Bill Manning.

[Oldtimer]

From ensco's initial post:

Things he did on his own

Hits

- staying with Bez, would have been easy to change him out
- staying with Vanney, didn’t move him out for his own guy (eg Kreis)

Misses

- poor field conditions at BMO Field
- All things Argos and ground share

Things he did with Curtis and Vanney

Hits

- identifying Pozuelo (I think, this may be premature)
- trading Hagglund for a boatload of assets (impossible to evaluate Deleon, Ciman deals yet)

Misses

- starting process to acquire Pozuelo on our own by triggering release without understanding situation
- general lack of readiness for 2019 season

Bottom Line

We went to three finals in 18 months and never lost any of them. That may not happen again in MLS in 50 years. He has a lot of goodwill stored up (for me anyways). But he is definitely depleting it.

In retrospect since this 2019 post he's done much worse than the original impression. He lost Bez and Vanney, and brought in his own people (who have been disastrous for the club). BMO Field and ground share still are problems. Got rid of Pozuelo (and I give Vanney, not Bill credit for getting him in the first place. Clearly Bill can't identify talent). Deleon and Cimon weren't great acquisitions (keeping Hagglund would have been much better). He doesn't deserve any credit for 2017-2019, he was just fortunate/clever to run into the excellent situation that Tim L. set up and didn't immediately destroy it -- that took time. The depletion of goodwill is pretty well complete.

[Ultra & Proud]

Funny how the LA Galaxy can win their derby match against LAFC (81K in attendance! ) with all of those TFC castoffs: Chris Mavinga, Marky Delgado, Raheem Edwards... oh and yes, Greg Vanney.

Not to compare current LAG to us because we are now easily the worst team in MLS, but LAFC is in complete and total freefall mode. They'll be counting down the minutes until this League's Cup break starts.

Any decent team could take LAFC down at the moment. They're slowly becoming us as fatigue is making the good old Bob style system difficult to run effectively.

And I would say I remember us getting attention and winning games but I really think that was 2019. There hasn't been much since then.

[jloome]

Not to compare current LAG to us because we are now easily the worst team in MLS, but LAFC is in complete and total freefall mode. They'll be counting down the minutes until this League's Cup break starts.

Any decent team could take LAFC down at the moment. They're slowly becoming us as fatigue is making the good old Bob style system difficult to run effectively.

And I would say I remember us getting attention and winning games but I really think that was 2019. There hasn't been much since then.

It's not just fatigue from the constant 7-on-7s. Heath Pierce made the point on his podcast with Jimmy Conrad that Bob's personality just wears people down after two or three years of intensity, intensity, intensity. That team ran largely on decent player and Carlos Vela. And now Vela is aging out. Bouanga is having a tougher time than when he first arrived, just like Fede, and if you watch them making a lot of the same mistakes in thinking he can beat everyone. That was good for seven or eight goals, but now they press him quickly, knowing he'll always take the selfish option.

[Ultra & Proud]

just like Fede, and if you watch them making a lot of the same mistakes in thinking he can beat everyone. That was good for seven or eight goals, but now they press him quickly, knowing he'll always take the selfish option.

Looking forward to see how Messi does when he is flypapered by a bunch of over aggressive, 'lesser' defenders too. I am expecting him to be displeased about it but probably not until next year. People will be star struck for the last 12 matches here.

[JoesphNdo]

Looking forward to see how Messi does when he is flypapered by a bunch of over aggressive, 'lesser' defenders too. I am expecting him to be displeased about it but probably not until next year. People will be star struck for the last 12 matches here.

Messi has spent his whole career being pressed by hatchet men - nobody in MLS is comparing to Joses Real, or Simeones Atleti, or Bilbao at any time, or any other teams like that. I don't see that as a concern. His biggest issue will be he's used to close control interplay with world class players and will probably get frustrated when 1-2s aren't coming back to him. That and, obviously, his age + travel, and maybe a general lack of motivation

[Graeme]

His biggest issue will be he's used to close control interplay with world class players and will probably get frustrated when 1-2s aren't coming back to him.

I see this happening to Insigne almost constantly. He gets the ball, passes off and moves into space that leaves him room to run, but the ball has already gone backwards. Franklin is the worst at this, although he is still one of the brighter lights this season.

[jloome]

I see this happening to Insigne almost constantly. He gets the ball, passes off and moves into space that leaves him room to run, but the ball has already gone backwards. Franklin is the worst at this, although he is still one of the brighter lights this season.

Yeah, our young players have zero confidence in their passing. Every time someone under age 25 touched the ball agianst Orlando, it went backwards. It was very frustrating to watch, as I know it's ingrained cowardice, but my brain kept referencing Terry as a midfielder. He spent a lot of time shoveling the ball three yards, mostly backwards.

[Ultra & Proud]

Messi has spent his whole career being pressed by hatchet men - nobody in MLS is comparing to Joses Real, or Simeones Atleti, or Bilbao at any time

No but our refs aren't like theirs either and there will be days when gets manhandled and won't get the calls he was expecting.

[ag futbol]

No but our refs aren't like theirs either and there will be days when gets manhandled and won't get the calls he was expecting.

Oh I would suspect the intimidation factor for refs and players here is going to be large. Like, career-ending stuff if you manage to severely blow a call or cripple the league’s golden boy.

[JoesphNdo]

Oh I would suspect the intimidation factor for refs and players here is going to be large. Like, career-ending stuff if you manage to severely blow a call or cripple the league’s golden boy.

Yeah I don't see Messi getting the Seba treatment from officials, I suspect the league will correct the other way and you'll be giving away free kicks for looking at him

[ensco]

From ensco's initial post:



In retrospect since this 2019 post he's done much worse than the original impression. He lost Bez and Vanney, and brought in his own people (who have been disastrous for the club). BMO Field and ground share still are problems. Got rid of Pozuelo (and I give Vanney, not Bill credit for getting him in the first place. Clearly Bill can't identify talent). Deleon and Cimon weren't great acquisitions (keeping Hagglund would have been much better). He doesn't deserve any credit for 2017-2019, he was just fortunate/clever to run into the excellent situation that Tim L. set up and didn't immediately destroy it -- that took time. The depletion of goodwill is pretty well complete.

Thanks for finding and reposting that. Always interesting to look back and see how the thinking moves over time…

I agree with how you see it.

[Blindside16]

To be fair we could re-sign Zavaleta & put him at striker and he would be no more useless than the rest of them.

Bring back Ben Spencer