Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 456789 LastLast
Results 211 to 240 of 255
  1. #211
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    278
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    Manning has to go for the idiotic choice to make Curtis the GM in the first place. Why would you get "two shots"? So you are saying he gets a free pass on hiring his way over his head and red bulls reject here and destroying the team? This is gross incompetence from him and also Curtis. They both must go.
    My view on the 'two shots' is that it isn't great for culture to fire someone for every mistake. Given that, like i said, I am totally good with him being canned as well for the reasons you state. It has been one long, colossal screw up!

    As for some more explanation on my "two shots" view, for example:

    Vanney had a rough season in 2018, some were calling for him to be fired. I am glad he wasn't because as a coach that was one of his two shots, and he obviously turned it back around.

    For Curtis, he has made bad signings and poor coaching decisions, he needs to be gone asap. I don't think a single person sees this any other way.

    For Manning, his job is to oversee so mainly to bring in a competent GM. But to clarify again, this is just me saying I am on the fence of him going. I would be content either way, he let Curtis go for too long the same way Curtis let Armas go for too long.


    Edit: Thinking about more, Manning hired Curtis and then actually extended him while the wheels were starting to fall off. That may be two shots now that I think about it more. I'll lean more towards he should be gone now too.

  2. #212
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Posts
    38
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrillos View Post
    My view on the 'two shots' is that it isn't great for culture to fire someone for every mistake. Given that, like i said, I am totally good with him being canned as well for the reasons you state. It has been one long, colossal screw up!

    As for some more explanation on my "two shots" view, for example:

    Vanney had a rough season in 2018, some were calling for him to be fired. I am glad he wasn't because as a coach that was one of his two shots, and he obviously turned it back around.

    For Curtis, he has made bad signings and poor coaching decisions, he needs to be gone asap. I don't think a single person sees this any other way.

    For Manning, his job is to oversee so mainly to bring in a competent GM. But to clarify again, this is just me saying I am on the fence of him going. I would be content either way, he let Curtis go for too long the same way Curtis let Armas go for too long.


    Edit: Thinking about more, Manning hired Curtis and then actually extended him while the wheels were starting to fall off. That may be two shots now that I think about it more. I'll lean more towards he should be gone now too.
    Agreed fully. They both need to go.

    Its shocking how bad we are now. Their heads must roll. And for the love of God, no more Red Bulls related coachs and players for that matter as well. Its a club that has never one anything but for some reason we think they are to be emulated somehow.

  3. #213
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    278
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hala Hrvatska View Post
    Agreed fully. They both need to go.

    Its shocking how bad we are now. Their heads must roll. And for the love of God, no more Red Bulls related coachs and players for that matter as well. Its a club that has never one anything but for some reason we think they are to be emulated somehow.

    Agreed, and it is funny how it is clear that Jesse Marsch was the main and only reason for their strong contention for a couple seasons. Just like it is becoming quite clear Vanney was the main part of our dominance up until now. Sadly the NYRB were smart enough to see Marsch for what he is and Curtis for what he is, we didn't... and did the opposite.

  4. #214
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    5,482
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Up until this morning I was still down for giving Manning another shot. All I can say now is that if he signs Giovinco to a January deal before we have a new GM & manager then Manning should be out too. Everyone out then. Even the janitors and cooks. Burn it to the ground and start over.

  5. #215
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    5,305
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Up until this morning I was still down for giving Manning another shot. All I can say now is that if he signs Giovinco to a January deal before we have a new GM & manager then Manning should be out too. Everyone out then. Even the janitors and cooks. Burn it to the ground and start over.

    The cooks, noooooooo

  6. #216
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,680
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I just finished Simon Kuper's new book on Barcelona, and it has a passage that I thought must describe the thought process of Manning/Curtis in hiring Armas, and the serious error they made in trying to implement an elite system in a secondary league with aging players (key sentences bolded)...

    ______

    "Gegenpressing, the Germans called the latest version: chasing up the opposition the moment you lose possession, so as to win the ball near their goal, before their defense could organize. It was Ajax’s “hunting” of the 1970s on fast-forward—a game so rapid it should be called “storming.” ... Whereas Guardiola’s Barça had hated losing the ball, for teams like Klopp’s Liverpool, losing the ball and then winning it back was the strategy. In 2014, Germany’s 1–7 thrashing of Brazil with rapid forward pressing had seemed like a hilarious one-off. It turned out to be the portent of a new phenomenon: blowout wins by teams playing at a pace that would have seemed impossible as recently as 2010. By 2020, storming had become the orthodoxy, practiced even by traditionally cautious teams like Juventus and Chelsea. Wing-backs pelted forward nonstop. Midfielders pulled sprints when their team won the ball, and also when they lost it....The Champions League had never averaged three goals per game in any season between 2003–2004 (when the competition’s new format was adopted) and 2015–2016. Between 2016 and 2020, the average exceeded three for three seasons out of four...

    Teams like Barça, which pass out from defense, can be caught in storms. Used to having the ball in the other team’s half, Barcelona got confused when they lost it in their own. One oddity of storming is that the method tends to work best against skillful attacking teams like Barcelona. It’s hard to storm a defensive team, because they keep ten men back. It’s also hard to storm a long-ball team, because they will go long, bypassing the storm.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  7. #217
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    11,894
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I just finished Simon Kuper's new book on Barcelona, and it has a passage that I thought must describe the thought process of Manning/Curtis in hiring Armas, and the serious error they made in trying to implement an elite system in a secondary league with aging players (key sentences bolded)...

    ______

    "Gegenpressing, the Germans called the latest version: chasing up the opposition the moment you lose possession, so as to win the ball near their goal, before their defense could organize. It was Ajax’s “hunting” of the 1970s on fast-forward—a game so rapid it should be called “storming.” ... Whereas Guardiola’s Barça had hated losing the ball, for teams like Klopp’s Liverpool, losing the ball and then winning it back was the strategy. In 2014, Germany’s 1–7 thrashing of Brazil with rapid forward pressing had seemed like a hilarious one-off. It turned out to be the portent of a new phenomenon: blowout wins by teams playing at a pace that would have seemed impossible as recently as 2010. By 2020, storming had become the orthodoxy, practiced even by traditionally cautious teams like Juventus and Chelsea. Wing-backs pelted forward nonstop. Midfielders pulled sprints when their team won the ball, and also when they lost it....The Champions League had never averaged three goals per game in any season between 2003–2004 (when the competition’s new format was adopted) and 2015–2016. Between 2016 and 2020, the average exceeded three for three seasons out of four...

    Teams like Barça, which pass out from defense, can be caught in storms. Used to having the ball in the other team’s half, Barcelona got confused when they lost it in their own. One oddity of storming is that the method tends to work best against skillful attacking teams like Barcelona. It’s hard to storm a defensive team, because they keep ten men back. It’s also hard to storm a long-ball team, because they will go long, bypassing the storm.
    Yeah, that’s pretty telling. We moved immediately into a low block from offense against Nashville. If you look at the possession, we ceded the centre of the pitch so greatly that they outpossesed us overall, eve though we had more possession than them in both the offensive and defensive ends.

    Total clearances were 33-7 in our our favor.

    So we did the exact opposite of our old build from the back: we only countered, we cleared the ball at any hint of danger and when they changed tactics to a 433 and tried to boss possession, we pressed.

    Basically the defensive version of the press and low block.

  8. #218
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    F5
    Posts
    12,879
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Yeah, that’s pretty telling. We moved immediately into a low block from offense against Nashville. If you look at the possession, we ceded the centre of the pitch so greatly that they outpossesed us overall, eve though we had more possession than them in both the offensive and defensive ends.

    Total clearances were 33-7 in our our favor.

    So we did the exact opposite of our old build from the back: we only countered, we cleared the ball at any hint of danger and when they changed tactics to a 433 and tried to boss possession, we pressed.

    Basically the defensive version of the press and low block.
    It’s almost like the strategy we said we wanted but Armas wasn’t smart enough to implement

  9. #219
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    5,305
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    It’s almost like the strategy we said we wanted but Armas wasn’t smart enough to implement
    Perez might not be the right fit for future coach but he is no slouch tactically.

  10. #220
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,680
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    It’s almost like the strategy we said we wanted but Armas wasn’t smart enough to implement
    I think it’s more like Armas said: “Look at Bayern, look at Chelsea, look at Juve, this is the future” and sold that to these guys.

    They said “yup” but the correct response of course was: “Look at this team and roster construction. Look at this league. Look at our salary structure and roster rules.“
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  11. #221
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    F5
    Posts
    12,879
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I think it’s more like Armas said: “Look at Bayern, look at Chelsea, look at Juve, this is the future” and sold that to these guys.

    They said “yup” but the correct response of course was: “Look at this team and roster construction. Look at this league. Look at our salary structure and roster rules.“
    There was a certain element of being over ambitious with that strategy, for sure. Now that said, playing guys out of position and hearing multiple snippets from players about “clear instructions” when Perez started really makes me think Armas’s flaws go well beyond any preference in tactical style

  12. #222
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    645
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    It’s almost like the strategy we said we wanted but Armas wasn’t smart enough to implement
    I had the same thought while watching the game. My guess is that Armas was only teaching the press, but couldn’t figure out the corresponding tactics. Maybe Perez was given the temp coaching job because Manning and Curtis believe he has the know how to implement what Armas couldn’t?

  13. #223
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    11,894
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamp Berg View Post
    I had the same thought while watching the game. My guess is that Armas was only teaching the press, but couldn’t figure out the corresponding tactics. Maybe Perez was given the temp coaching job because Manning and Curtis believe he has the know how to implement what Armas couldn’t?
    The system we ran was more a “reverse” press or counterpress. They countered and bunkered and only pressed when the outlet players were isolated. It was much more conservative than what Armas was trying, which was more like the “hunter” system the Dutch used to use in Cruyffks days (a modern press without a low block positionally, basically.)

    As Ensco mentioned Armas’ press was basically a gamble that our roster was advanced enough to play Man City’s system, which they clearly weren’t.

  14. #224
    RPB Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    1,130
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    His interview was so painful... finally watched it after 3rd attempt... to save people 15 minutes of their time.

    * One of the big reasons why we were having so many issues keeping DPs on the Field (No solutions or causes offered, nothing about training tactics or benching of Jozy)
    * Piatti and Ciman Leadership/Glue Void (what did Morrow, Bradley, OSO etc. bring then)
    * Away from BMO (Legit)
    * Xavier (Wait and See)
    * Canadian Championship (More important because of failures this year, CONCACAF & Trophy)
    * We want to play for Trophies (Stressed it like Winning Canadian championship makes it ok "my interpretation)
    * Off Season Significance (Urgency to re-build but right decision before expediency, January window incredibly important)
    * After this season, there will be change (Q: Does change come on and off the pitch? - reviewing everything, but especially on the field (need guys healthy and on the field, mentioned Ayo... but no Jozy and no mention at all of Curtis) but he stressed I know how to put together a championship team, i have done it before. (no "we" on that one)
    * Seba (Favorite son, maintained relationship... would be a nice story but need to see if there is a way, there is a willingness)
    * Winning Makes it all better (we have been away for too long) (Poz we have only seen live for one season and he is in this third year, fans make it better)
    * Has COVID reduced his ability to spend (Ownership have taken care of everything they have been asked, took care of the players... can blame ownership)

    We are going to be BOLD in the Off season.

  15. #225
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    F5
    Posts
    12,879
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    He mentioned Ciman in addition to Piatti? I missed that … Dude is just downright desperate and grasping at straws.

  16. #226
    RPB Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    1,130
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Could barely make it out.... the real thing is he was pure PR. As a RBP and a SSH, I would have respected him more if he said. We made some mistakes and we are going to fix them....it was a fluff piece.

  17. #227
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    11,894
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmancan View Post
    Could barely make it out.... the real thing is he was pure PR. As a RBP and a SSH, I would have respected him more if he said. We made some mistakes and we are going to fix them....it was a fluff piece.
    Also... what Champion team has Manning ever built!? He literally parachuted into RSL with the roster that won a) getting into the playoffs on the last day due to our collapse 5-0 at NY and b) with the entire team already there when he arrived. He added zero important pieces.

    That was the last and only time they were close.

    He doesn't know how to build fuck all.

    Delusional is right if he thinks that load of horseshit is going to convince TFC fans. We have an imbalanced, old roster without enough competitive backup in key positions.

  18. #228
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    So my feelings about Manning… his past and present efforts….
    To use the words of another less shorter Southern Italian ‘baller…
    Gattuso, who has a little more prestigious silverware then Insigne…
    https://youtu.be/WVxWA4FfD2M

    Regarding Insigne… Manning’s story about how he identified the acquisition, what was suggested and stated by him is a little convenient for me. It may be more nuanced. I think he may be playing a little loose and fast, a bit of a shell game, with some of those facts. Apart from the corporate self posturing which is to be expected and alright.

    I get it, that for many on these Forums it just doesn’t matter. We should be happy… celebrating and giving praise. It should be a mantra thread. Sure, Manning’s the point person on this that got Insigne signed. Full-stop. His achievement, yet conversely… his corporate albatross. To an extent I will agree his role was significant, yet also part of a daisy chain; for instance, let’s not forget the critical roles very experienced DiCuollo and go-getter agent D’Amico most likely played.

    I am happy and I have celebrated. I am not ready to give praise. I get the feeling Manning is not being forthcoming with the real genesis of how Insigne was landed; hence, the simpleton Transfermarkt remark. There is more to it then what is being reported; that it started with a basic list.

    My speculative and alternate reality?

    Insigne was less per se initially targeted and more fell, God sent by circumstances even, into Manning’s, TFC’s and us supporters’ fortunate laps. He was probably more of a by product of Criscito’s interaction with TFC than anything else.

    Let me explain. I have no concern that as suggested by Manning, in SEP21 a plan was created, presented to MLSE Board and greenlit. That plan most likely involved a framework of generalities- execution markers, maybe even some specifics- names on a list. If not, without a doubt, players were eventually identified with Transfermarkt or other aggregators. I will concede Insigne may have even been on any such list. However, I am not able to reasonably believe that at that time he was among the primary or more realistic of targets initially aspired for and sought. For those, I believe one was Destro. This would explain his and teammate Criscito’s suggested early commitment after a visit during an international break; likely the first full week of October but between 03OCT21 and 16OCT21 and supported by information from a poster on another thread. As well as, the notion that they are as good as signed; were now?

    Follow the convergence of factors at play; the bouncing ball. According to Transfermarkt, how ironic is that!... Destro’s contract ends this season, Criscito’s end of season 2023. Genoa’s season was already trending the wrong way by OCT21; towards relegation. Destro may have said something to his Captain Criscito about TFC’s connect. I believe Destro is known to Michael Bradley. Bob Bradley may have even had an inclination by OCT21 that he was moving on from LAFC; an opinion at least maybe was even shared with son. Criscito is represented by D’Amico. It may have even happened in reverse; D’Amico, Criscito then Destro.

    Nonetheless, my understanding is that Criscito is good friends with Insigne. Perhaps Criscito visited here as Insigne’s proxy, but it is more likely he came and saw because of D’Amico and any initial reach out to the agent by Manning. Criscito then may have mentioned to his friend, “hey if it looks like Napoli is stringing you along, you may want to consider this… given the idea you will not play for another SerieA team if you are compelled to leave, for legacy reasons”; enter D’Amico.

    According to another post in another thread of this RPB Forum, the first sports paper to have likely reported on TFC’s interest in Insigne may have been La Gazzetta dello Sport on 13OCT21; with a meeting between party representatives confirmed. If there was any communication between Criscito before and / or during his visit to TFC's facilities with Insigne and any sort of interest was expressed, D’Amico would likely have acted immediately and with DiCuollo on the development and for that meeting.

    I think Insigne’s targeting was more happenstance and a by product than Manning cares to admit. Still, fantastic fortune for him, TFC, us supporters, MLS and the beautiful game in our region.

    Without question Manning worked his ass off on this.
    More than happy to be completely wrong with my fantasy.
    To take a bucket of egg on the face.
    We got Il Magnifico!
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-11-2022 at 07:05 AM.

  19. #229
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Posts
    30
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Inbetween View Post
    So my feelings about Manning… his past and present efforts….
    To use the words of another less shorter Southern Italian ‘baller…
    Gattuso, who has a little more prestigious silverware then Insigne…
    https://youtu.be/WVxWA4FfD2M

    Regarding Insigne… Manning’s story about how he identified the acquisition, what was suggested and stated by him is a little convenient for me. It may be more nuanced. I think he may be playing a little loose and fast, a bit of a shell game, with some of those facts. Apart from the corporate self posturing which is to be expected and alright.

    I get it, that for many on these Forums it just doesn’t matter. We should be happy… celebrating and giving praise. It should be a mantra thread. Sure, Manning’s the point person on this that got Insigne signed. Full-stop. His achievement, yet conversely… his corporate albatross. To an extent I will agree his role was significant, yet also part of a daisy chain; for instance, let’s not forget the critical roles very experienced DiCuollo and go-getter agent D’Amico most likely played.

    I am happy and I have celebrated. I am not ready to give praise. I get the feeling Manning is not being forthcoming with the real genesis of how Insigne was landed; hence, the simpleton Transfermarkt remark. There is more to it then what is being reported; that it started with a basic list.

    My speculative and alternate reality?

    Insigne was less per se initially targeted and more fell, God sent by circumstances even, into Manning’s, TFC’s and us supporters’ fortunate laps. He was probably more of a by product of Criscito’s interaction with TFC than anything else.

    Let me explain. I have no concern that as suggested by Manning, in SEP21 a plan was created, presented to MLSE Board and greenlit. That plan most likely involved a framework of generalities- execution markers, maybe even some specifics- names on a list. If not, without a doubt, players were eventually identified with Transfermarkt or other aggregators. I will concede Insigne may have even been on any such list. However, I am not able to reasonably believe that at that time he was among the primary or more realistic of targets initially aspired for and sought. For those, I believe one was Destro. This would explain his and teammate Criscito’s suggested early commitment after a visit during an international break; likely the first full week of October but between 03OCT21 and 16OCT21 and supported by information from a poster on another thread. As well as, the notion that they are as good as signed; were now?

    Follow the convergence of factors at play; the bouncing ball. According to Transfermarkt, how ironic is that!... Destro’s contract ends this season, Criscito’s end of season 2023. Genoa’s season was already trending the wrong way by OCT21; towards relegation. Destro may have said something to his Captain Criscito about TFC’s connect. I believe Destro is known to Michael Bradley. Bob Bradley may have even had an inclination by OCT21 that he was moving on from LAFC; an opinion at least maybe was even shared with son. Criscito is represented by D’Amico. It may have even happened in reverse; D’Amico, Criscito then Destro.

    Nonetheless, my understanding is that Criscito is good friends with Insigne. Perhaps Criscito visited here as Insigne’s proxy, but it is more likely he came and saw because of D’Amico and any initial reach out to the agent by Manning. Criscito then may have mentioned to his friend, “hey if it looks like Napoli is stringing you along, you may want to consider this… given the idea you will not play for another SerieA team if you are compelled to leave, for legacy reasons”; enter D’Amico.

    According to another post in another thread of this RPB Forum, the first sports paper to have likely reported on TFC’s interest in Insigne may have been La Gazzetta dello Sport on 13OCT21; with a meeting between party representatives confirmed. If there was any communication between Criscito before and / or during his visit to TFC's facilities with Insigne and any sort of interest was expressed, D’Amico would likely have acted immediately and with DiCuollo on the development and for that meeting.

    I think Insigne’s targeting was more happenstance and a by product than Manning cares to admit. Still, fantastic fortune for him, TFC, us supporters, MLS and the beautiful game in our region.

    Without question Manning worked his ass off on this.
    More than happy to be completely wrong with my fantasy.
    To take a bucket of egg on the face.
    We got Il Magnifico!
    I agree whole heartedly with how this went down , this basically fell on Manning, and that Gattuso is hilarious. Well written Mr In between , sounds like you got this Manning joker all figured out.

  20. #230
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,680
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ^^My favourite type of post: a credibly explained, highly speculative theory about what happened!
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  21. #231
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    575
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i never felt confident with manning.

    The fact TFC was unprepared handling, Seba's contract, not addressing equal productive players as replacement for VV and then panicking and giving Altidore a huge contract.

    I believe as we speak, poz effectively replace VV, dont think TFC ever had a replacement for Seba.


    I was not happy and was going to let my rep know and make sure it got to someone important.

    This doesnt change much in my eyes, he has been in self preservation mode since the press conference with Curtis.

    Highlighting all his achievements during TFC's worst season ever.

    He cannot get a pass for providing Curtis the key to destruct the foundation that was built- TFC once again became the laughing stock of the league.

    I have to question his knowledge of soccer, his ego as he tried to will Seba to play out his contract like other north american sports - instead of addressing contracts like the rest of the world does.

    Even to this very moment, paying to address error's his right hand man created - not to mention the turmoil/tension caused with Laryea and blocking him- We all see how he is on the field- imagine how he was feeling when he felt like his dreams were being blocked.


    I am not too impressed as the next set of moves prove to be important.

    He could miss out and get no one else like last season or look like an idiot for causing issues with Genke- this all shows me the incompetence - Someone of his resume as he pointed out shouldnt be learning how to management other teams they are vetting players for.

  22. #232
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,680
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ^You beat me to it (some of it anyway....)
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  23. #233
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,680
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Open Letter to Larry Tanenbaum

    Hi Larry.

    Some people here (well, me, anyway) think it’s time for Bill Manning to just 100% stuck to the business/admin side of TFC, and the Argos or whatever else you want him to do. That is a big, full-time job. Then give the soccer keys to Bob, and let Bill gracefully step out of the picture.

    First off, I want to say that I think Bill Manning is an incredibly decent person. My only interaction with him ever was in the line at YYZ to board the AC flight to Seattle on the Friday night before MLS Cup 2019. He was very gracious with myself and others.

    I am not blind to his significant success here. Manning inherited a powerhouse on the verge, and he did a very impressive thing, he didn’t mess with it, and he got it across the finish line (mostly). He has a title, three Cup finals. Most important, his team came by far the closest of anyone in MLS history to achieving the MLS dream, which is, to walk into Mexico and beat their biggest and best teams in their fabled stadiums (which TFC pretty much did). I am sure I speak for most when I say we are all very grateful for this.
    ________

    Intelligence, integrity and energy, all things I think Bill has, are the most important things in hiring senior people. Just ask Warren Buffett, you can look it up, he has said exactly that numerous times. Buffett once was asked a follow up question: how important is subject matter expertise? His answer was, actually not that important, because (i) I have lots of people in all my companies that have that, it's not that scarce, and (ii) if you get the right individual with the right level of intelligence, they will learn what they need to know.

    Unfortunately I think Buffett was not 100% right about that, and I think Bill’s recent years here are evidence of this. Manning is having repeated serious problems on the soccer side, and isn’t learning from mistakes.
    ________

    I think the head of the soccer operation (call him President, GM, Sporting Director, whatever) has more of less the following things to manage:

    • Hiring the manager/leadership of the team on the field
    • Running the youth development/academy system
    • College scouting for MLS draft
    • USL(and now CPL) scouting
    • Leading the pro scouting function (ie scouting other MLS teams for trades/signings)
    • Identifying targets, negotiating with, and signing players (and resigning players)
    • Having a vision for the future (who might come to MLS, and why, and when), watching for opportunities created elsewhere
    • Mentoring and building a team


    It’s a huge, tough job. How do you think Manning has done? Here is my take:

    Hiring the Manager/Leadership. This has been pretty bad. Curtis and Armas were horrific grease fires. But Vanney's departure spoke also volumes. Greg left a job where he had near Wenger-like job security and status, and went into a situation with little/no job security (the GM at LAG that hired him is already gone). I get that Vanney went home, the pandemic was tough etc … but still, in retrospect, his leaving was a major warning sign. Greg obviously saw through Curtis, and the question for you is, fine, Manning got the Curtis hire wrong, but why didn’t Manning, even after two years, see what Vanney saw? How on earth could Manning give Curtis an extension in 2021? (BB looks like a much better hire of course but I really hope it is you and the Board that hired and will ultimately evaluate BB, and not just Manning.)

    Youth Development/Academy. This has been a fail. Manning has had seven years to fix this. If there was one thing we all thought he could do, this was it. Ontario produces a ton of talent and virtually none of it winds up at TFC.

    College Scouting/MLS Draft. This is also a fail. Who have we acquired in the draft over the last seven years? Alex Bono. That's it. Nobody in the last five years. We have been horrible at this.

    USL scouting. Another fail. This is becoming a major source of low cost talent in MLS. But not for TFC.

    Pro Scouting. This is not bad, sort of. TFC had been very good at this on Manning's watch. Laryea, DeLeon, going even back to Beitashour and Will Johnson. But it sure looks to me like Vanney owns this success more than Manning does. Vanney leaves and brings in to his team Vazquez, who has by all accounts a very decent year in LA in a supporting role. Manning without Vanney brings in Dwyer…

    Identifying targets, signing and managing contracts. Pretty poor overall. Vazquez to TFC was a massive success. Insigne, our thanks go to you Larry, but i think we all know Manning had little to do with that, it was about an open chequebook (but he did get it done, it's not nothing). Pozo is a bit of a complex story, a question mark, it all depends on what happens next. He cost a lot, $20M all in, he has been great at times, others not so much. Covid has also messed up the Pozo accounting. Against those two are many failures: a “head in the sand” stance on contract expiries, which led to the 2019 Gio/Altidore contract fire drills, and the 2020 Vanney departure. Then there’s van der Wiel, Aketxe, Dwyer of course….

    Having a vision and judgment. This has been bad, and is getting worse. Manning doesn’t seem to understand enough about the business. The evidence for this is mostly highlighted above, but the capper is this Dwyer farce. Manning cannot have allowed TFC to have been in a position to have to give up a top Superdraft pick because we took a flyer on a player as meaningless as Dom Dwyer. Does the Board understand that the odds are something like 50/50 that in three years the player Dallas picks will be a more important on field contributor than Insigne? (No one is arguing that Insigne won't be selling more jerseys, though!)

    The lack of vision is also what my problem was with the transfermarkt thing, Larry. Of course everybody in the TFC office uses transfermarkt, and other tools like it, every day, same as every team everywhere. But as an idea generating tool for the head of the business? TFC is the biggest spending team in MLS by far, and the head of the business should always have a decent idea of who might be available and who might make sense. It shouldn't just be a figment of my imagination that the head of TFC’s soccer business should be walking around with a top 10 target list in Europe. (Shouldn't you be able to call him on Christmas morning at 3am and have him rattle off, in his sleep, an informed, detailed discussion of all ten possible targets? Isn't that table stakes in this game?)

    What made that transfermarkt thing even sillier is that contract expiries are only one piece of the puzzle, the world market mostly works on transfers 18 months out from expiries (something that eludes Manning, it seems, not withstanding the fact that Pozo and Yefe were ... transfers!) You paid a lot of money for those guys, that’s how they got here. Is it just possible that for $75M you might have done something different? Did you ask him? Now maybe you just told Bill to sign the best Italian on an expiring contract that he could , but if so, what does that say about your faith in him? (An objective observer might note that you could have potentially bought any of 20 world class players for that level of commitment.)

    Worst of all is the people side. The key people Manning inherited are gone. Who has Manning hired or developed internally? Is there anyone? Doesn’t look like it from the outside. Does having the boss google for the answer, then telling people that is what you did, inspire the people who work for him? Nobody is going to want to work for anyone who isn’t helping them be better or they cannot really learn from. The younger people should be doing the database searches but you, the boss, should bring it all together, the judgment, the connections, the thinking based on decades of experience, to figure out the short list, and then to get to the answer. A lot of this is the part around fit (knowing people that you trust who know the player, style of play, family situation, etc). The Soteldo thing, anyone could see before he came that he might have trouble playing with Pozo, they play the same game. 20 people here did. What did Manning say to you about that before spending $6.5M on him? Anything?

    Maybe I am wrong. Maybe all those things are actually happening behind the scenes here. You will all say they are if asked. Only you really know. But based on the evidence, it doesn’t look like it.


    Finally, Manning is repeatedly papering mistakes with your money. Whether it’s the extra $2M needed to pacify Genk after triggering Poz’s release clause without talking to the club, or giving Curtis an extension and then firing him a few months later, or the bath you are about to take on Soteldo and Jozy … maybe a trend is emerging?

    Manning is not doing enough of the things he needs to do well enough. It may be that you have given him too much to do. Maybe ask him to focus on things he has a track record of success in.


    Respectfully…
    Last edited by ensco; 01-11-2022 at 01:50 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  24. #234
    RPB Member
    Moderator

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    On the Interwebs
    Posts
    17,839
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FootBallAZ View Post

    I have to question his knowledge of soccer, his ego as he tried to will Seba to play out his contract like other north american sports - instead of addressing contracts like the rest of the world does.
    He owns putting Curtis in charge, that's on him.

    I don't blame him for gambling with Seba and losing. No regular league would have matched his salary from TFC. Who would think he'd want to go to a place like Saudi just for the cash where the quality of life is objectively very difficult for most westerners? (Seba hated it so much he fired his agent). Compare to Napoli who gambled much worse, trying to cut their captain Insigne's salary and losing him.

    I'm on the fence about Manning. Not impressed but I'll give him a chance. Mainly he should let Bob Bradley do his job with adequate support.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 01-11-2022 at 01:57 PM.


  25. #235
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    575
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Hi Larry.

    Some people here (well, me, anyway) think it’s time for Bill Manning to just 100% stuck to the business/admin side of TFC, and the Argos or whatever else you want him to do. That is a big, full-time job. Then give the soccer keys to Bob, and let Bill gracefully step out of the picture.

    First off, I want to say that I think Bill Manning is an incredibly decent person. My only interaction with him ever was in the line at YYZ to board the AC flight to Seattle on the Friday night before MLS Cup 2019. He was very gracious with myself and others.

    I am not blind to his significant success here. Manning inherited a powerhouse on the verge, and he did a very impressive thing, he didn’t mess with it, and he got it across the finish line (mostly). He has a title, three Cup finals. Most important, his team came by far the closest of anyone in MLS history to achieving the MLS dream, which is, to walk into Mexico and beat their biggest and best teams in their fabled stadiums (which TFC pretty much did). I am sure I speak for most when I say we are all very grateful for this.
    ________

    Intelligence, integrity and energy, all things I think Bill has, are the most important things in hiring senior people. Just ask Warren Buffett, you can look it up, he has said exactly that numerous times. Buffett once was asked a follow up question: how important is subject matter expertise? His answer was, actually not that important, because (i) I have lots of people in all my companies that have that, it's not that scarce, and (ii) if you get the right individual with the right level of intelligence, they will learn what they need to know.

    Unfortunately I think Buffett was not 100% right about that, and I think Bill’s recent years here are evidence of this. Manning is having repeated serious problems on the soccer side, and isn’t learning from mistakes.
    ________

    I think the head of the soccer operation (call him President, GM, Sporting Director, whatever) has more of less the following things to manage:

    • Hiring the manager/leadership of the team on the field
    • Running the youth development/academy system
    • College scouting for MLS draft
    • USL(and now CPL) scouting
    • Leading the pro scouting function (ie scouting other MLS teams for trades/signings)
    • Identifying targets, negotiating with, and signing players (and resigning players)
    • Having a vision for the future (who might come to MLS, and why, and when), watching for opportunities created elsewhere
    • Mentoring and building a team


    It’s a huge, tough job. How do you think Manning has done? Here is my take:

    Hiring the Manager/Leadership. This has been pretty bad. Curtis and Armas were horrific grease fires. But Vanney's departure spoke also volumes. Greg left a job where he had near Wenger-like job security and status, and went into a situation with little/no job security (the GM at LAG that hired him is already gone). I get that Vanney went home, the pandemic was tough etc … but still, in retrospect, his leaving was a major warning sign. Greg obviously saw through Curtis, and the question for you is, fine, Manning got the Curtis hire wrong, but why didn’t Manning, even after two years, see what Vanney saw? How on earth could Manning give Curtis an extension in 2021? (BB looks like a much better hire of course but I really hope it is you and the Board that hired and will ultimately evaluate BB, and not just Manning.)

    Youth Development/Academy. This has been a fail. Manning has had seven years to fix this. If there was one thing we all thought he could do, this was it. Ontario produces a ton of talent and virtually none of it winds up at TFC.

    College Scouting/MLS Draft. This is also a fail. Who have we acquired in the draft over the last seven years? Alex Bono. That's it. Nobody in the last five years. We have been horrible at this.

    USL scouting. Another fail. This is becoming a major source of low cost talent in MLS. But not for TFC.

    Pro Scouting. This is not bad, sort of. TFC had been very good at this on Manning's watch. Laryea, DeLeon, going even back to Beitashour and Will Johnson. But it sure looks to me like Vanney owns this success more than Manning does. Vanney leaves and brings in to his team Vazquez, who has by all accounts a very decent year in LA in a supporting role. Manning without Vanney brings in Dwyer…

    Identifying targets, signing and managing contracts. Pretty poor overall. Vazquez to TFC was a massive success. Insigne, our thanks go to you Larry, but i think we all know Manning had little to do with that, it was about an open chequebook (but he did get it done, it's not nothing). Pozo is a bit of a complex story, a question mark, it all depends on what happens next. He cost a lot, $20M all in, he has been great at times, others not so much. Covid has also messed up the Pozo accounting. Against those two are many failures: a “head in the sand” stance on contract expiries, which led to the 2019 Gio/Altidore contract fire drills, and the 2020 Vanney departure. Then there’s van der Wiel, Aketxe, Dwyer of course….

    Having a vision and judgment. This has been bad, and is getting worse. Manning doesn’t seem to understand enough about the business. The evidence for this is mostly highlighted above, but the capper is this Dwyer farce. Manning cannot have allowed TFC to have been in a position to have to give up a top Superdraft pick because we took a flyer on a player as meaningless as Dom Dwyer. Does the Board understand that the odds are something like 50/50 that in three years the player Dallas picks will be a more important on field contributor than Insigne? (No one is arguing that Insigne won't be selling more jerseys, though!)

    The lack of vision is also what my problem was with the transfermarkt thing, Larry. Of course everybody in the TFC office uses transfermarkt, and other tools like it, every day, same as every team everywhere. But as an idea generating tool for the head of the business? TFC is the biggest spending team in MLS by far, and the head of the business should always have a decent idea of who might be available and who might make sense. It shouldn't just be a figment of my imagination that the head of TFC’s soccer business should be walking around with a top 10 target list in Europe. (Shouldn't you be able to call him on Christmas morning at 3am and have him rattle off, in his sleep, an informed, detailed discussion of all ten possible targets? Isn't that table stakes in this game?)

    What made that transfermarkt thing even sillier is that contract expiries are only one piece of the puzzle, the world market mostly works on transfers 18 months out from expiries (something that eludes Manning, it seems, not withstanding the fact that Pozo and Yefe were ... transfers!) You paid a lot of money for those guys, that’s how they got here. Is it just possible that for $75M you might have done something different? Did you ask him? Now maybe you just told Bill to sign the best Italian on an expiring contract that he could , but if so, what does that say about your faith in him? (An objective observer might note that you could have potentially bought any of 20 world class players for that level of commitment.)

    Worst of all is the people side. The key people Manning inherited are gone. Who has Manning hired or developed internally? Is there anyone? Doesn’t look like it from the outside. Does having the boss google for the answer, then telling people that is what you did, inspire the people who work for him? Nobody is going to want to work for anyone who isn’t helping them be better or they cannot really learn from. The younger people should be doing the database searches but you, the boss, should bring it all together, the judgment, the connections, the thinking based on decades of experience, to figure out the short list, and then to get to the answer. A lot of this is the part around fit (knowing people that you trust who know the player, style of play, family situation, etc). The Soteldo thing, anyone could see before he came that he might have trouble playing with Pozo, they play the same game. 20 people here did. What did Manning say to you about that before spending $6.5M on him? Anything?

    Maybe I am wrong. Maybe all those things are actually happening behind the scenes here. You will all say they are if asked. Only you really know. But based on the evidence, it doesn’t look like it.


    Finally, Manning is repeatedly papering mistakes with your money. Whether it’s the extra $2M needed to pacify Genk after triggering Poz’s release clause without talking to the club, or giving Curtis an extension and then firing him a few months later, or the bath you are about to take on Soteldo and Jozy … maybe a trend is emerging?

    Manning is not doing enough of the things he needs to do well enough. It may be that you have given him too much to do. Maybe ask him to focus on things he has a track record of success in.


    Respectfully…

    very well written long but easy to digest.

    You a writer or make business reports? lol

  26. #236
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    F5
    Posts
    12,879
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ensco I feel like you are going to get your wish but Larry isn’t going to do it. If you look at Manning’s track record he never plays his last role of the dice. He leaves before that happens.

    I bet you he makes all the signings this off season, takes credit for turning things around (before the results are in) and uses that to get his next job. If he stays and we flop, he’s finished as an exec. If he leaves, he prolongs his career.

    Leaving all that aside, the vision thing does trouble me a bit. His articulation of what he’s doing is so poor for someone of his position, makes you wonder if he knows what he’s doing. His story about Insigne makes it sound like he read he paper one day, clued into the fact Italians live in Toronto, and then decided this was his way to pick up ticket sales / satisfy his bosses. Let’s hope there’s more to it.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 01-11-2022 at 03:05 PM.

  27. #237
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Section 111 Row 8
    Posts
    9,069
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ensco again.

    Simply masterfully written.
    RPB Road Warrior: supporting Toronto FC anywhere on planet earth

    TM: YYZ Red Patch Army #18, FC

  28. #238
    RPB Member
    Moderator

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    On the Interwebs
    Posts
    17,839
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post


    I think the head of the soccer operation (call him President, GM, Sporting Director, whatever) has more of less the following things to manage:

    • Hiring the manager/leadership of the team on the field
    • Running the youth development/academy system
    • College scouting for MLS draft
    • USL(and now CPL) scouting
    • Leading the pro scouting function (ie scouting other MLS teams for trades/signings)
    • Identifying targets, negotiating with, and signing players (and resigning players)
    • Having a vision for the future (who might come to MLS, and why, and when), watching for opportunities created elsewhere
    • Mentoring and building a team

    I mostly agree with your post, ensco, but I think the bolded areas should be delegated, not run directly by Manning.


  29. #239
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,680
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ^^^Yeah agfutbol, mightydm also made a similar point a few days ago. Seems like a very good theory to me.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  30. #240
    RPB Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Somewhere, Anywhere.
    Posts
    10,734
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I mostly agree with your post, ensco, but I think the bolded areas should be delegated, not run directly by Manning.
    From what I understood, he was suggesting that the lists responsibilities would be overseen by the proposed head of soccer operations rather than Manning.
    Last edited by Red CB Toronto; 01-11-2022 at 03:41 PM.

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •