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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    We are at the fork in the road that is the riddle of supporter life. Fair weather fans drive a lot more change than the hardcores (who are mostly taken for granted, because of their loyalty).

    Leiweke was a radical solution, born of real failure of all the teams. But now that it's really just TFC failing, the mindset of the bosses will govern what happens here. Which means nothing good, I am afraid.

    We are yelling into the void, I am afraid. Even before you factor in the pandemic.
    Is the overlooked but interesting observation here that the Argos are a tire-fire too? To be fair, they had a lot of issues that pre-date Manning but he certainly hasn’t righted the ship.

    I hope whatever extension they gave him, it was a short one. But my gut tells me we are back to having sleepy corporate governance from people who really don’t understand how this team is supposed to work.

    This is the core issue here throughout TFC’s history. We got lucky on account of accidentally having appointed a president who was given a long leash and had an actual vision. Now we’re back to having a bunch of corporate lizards who probably make great PowerPoint presentations but are useless when it comes to achieving things.

    But again, the issue is the board is useless. Curtis and Manning should never have been hired. They are b-minus executives at best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I agree with a lot of your takes, ensco, but I can't agree with you on this statement, it's a bit too extreme a characterization.

    He is a minority shareholder, and he has a lot less power than he have be if Bell and Rogers were less chummy and he was the "tie-breaker" in board votes. It seems like Bell and Rogers disagree on almost nothing. However, Bell and Rogers have pretty well agreed to let him be the representative of MLSE's ownership, he sits on the important league boards of various sports as a part-owner, including the MLS Board of Governors. He has real decision-making power in those roles, he's not just a figurehead.

    As far as the team goes, for decisions like DP hires, player budget, etc. I think all three entities (Bell, Rogers, Larry T) have to be in agreement. However, if Larry T wanted to ditch Manning, he would probably get his way. Manning knows this, so there is real accountability there.
    I think you are right that calling him just a figurehead is unfair. But he is often a figurehead, how often is not known.

    This is a corporate structure, a Chairman has limited day to day influence. If Bogers are letting Tanenbaum have operational influence, ie calling the shots on Manning, that would be a breakdown.

    I think the bigger question is, what does Friisdahl do all day? How can it be that we literally never see or hear from the guy? He runs all the sports teams in this community… god the papers are awful here. They deserve to lose all their readers. You think the President of MSGin NY would just get ignored like this?

    Friisdahl is Manning's actual boss. It would or should have been Friisdahl's decision/recommendation to extend Manning. If it wasn’t, that is worth knowing.

    Perhaps we will learn some things as the Masai situation resolves…
    Last edited by ensco; 07-05-2021 at 06:59 AM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Is the overlooked but interesting observation here that the Argos are a tire-fire too? To be fair, they had a lot of issues that pre-date Manning but he certainly hasn’t righted the ship.

    I hope whatever extension they gave him, it was a short one. But my gut tells me we are back to having sleepy corporate governance from people who really don’t understand how this team is supposed to work.

    This is the core issue here throughout TFC’s history. We got lucky on account of accidentally having appointed a president who was given a long leash and had an actual vision. Now we’re back to having a bunch of corporate lizards who probably make great PowerPoint presentations but are useless when it comes to achieving things.

    But again, the issue is the board is useless. Curtis and Manning should never have been hired. They are b-minus executives at best.
    Manning was given a five year extension.

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    Manning is the least of our problems imo.
    I think we are grouping him with Ali too much. I personally like him, I like how direct he his with his answers, speaks with information, got pissed in the presser and took control and has the resume to back it up. I'll definitely give him a chance even if he made a mistake or two because I feel he can learn from it.
    Ali on the other hand hasn't proved anything to me...

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    Manning's fault was trusting Curtis too much (and maybe for hiring him in the first place). He won't let that happen again. I don't believe Manning is going anywhere, neither should he. Every team president is entitled to at least one mistake.


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    im shocked manning went along with the armas signing.im sure he was not too happy about going to the board and asking to pay off the rest of his contract after 15 games,and jozy getting paid to stay home,im sure ali is on a short leash and bill will be front and center on a new gaffer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Manning's fault was trusting Curtis too much (and maybe for hiring him in the first place). He won't let that happen again. I don't believe Manning is going anywhere, neither should he. Every team president is entitled to at least one mistake.
    He has made two bug mistakes. He owns the whole way Giovinco/Altidore were handled in 2018/2019.

    He also has a major success (not wrecking what Leiweke built, which would have been easy).

    Overall he is on pretty thin ice, for me.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    There a couple things that are puzzling to me relating to the press conference on Sunday.

    Manning's opening statement was only about 25 seconds long and it didn't give any indication of how they as leadership will move forward. Neither Manning or Curtis talked about who would be interm manager, if any other staff were let go or that the team was coming back to Toronto on Thursday.


    It took 11.5 minutes until John Molinario asked the staff question to find out who would be on the field with the players as coach.


    I can't understand why Manning or Curtis would not want to steer the agenda by providing that information or why it took 11.5 minutes for a journalist to ask. It took 23 minutes to talk about coming back to Toronto and no details were given until a follow up question was asked later.


    Does anyone else have thoughts on this?


    I am not sure but until the question was asked about interm manager by Molinaro I don't think it was official public knowledge. I know Molinaro tweeted it at 4:14 PM which is consistent with the presser questioning timeline.


    It must have been a deliberate choice not to give the information in the initial statement. I don't think someone who (to roughly quote Manning from the press conference) has been in MLS for 16 years, has been to 5 MLS cups, been to 7 conference finals, 12 playoffs, missed playoffs only 3 times, worked with 4 GM's and 4 head coaches coaches would forget to let the world know the short term path forward.


    Could they? Am I being naive about this?

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    If I could speak to Manning one on one this is what I would say to him
    https://youtu.be/vWCGs27_xPI

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevep View Post
    If I could speak to Manning one on one this is what I would say to him
    https://youtu.be/vWCGs27_xPI
    Perfect 👌🏻 🤣

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    He has made two bug mistakes. He owns the whole way Giovinco/Altidore were handled in 2018/2019.

    He also has a major success (not wrecking what Leiweke built, which would have been easy).

    Overall he is on pretty thin ice, for me.
    Did he mismanage the Gio situation? He didn't want to pay top dollar for an aging star. He then used that Gio money and got another MLS MVP. A younger one that took us to an MLS Cup Final.

    The Jozy thing - yes was mismanaged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodgesico View Post
    Manning's opening statement was only about 25 seconds long and it didn't give any indication of how they as leadership will move forward. Neither Manning or Curtis talked about who would be interm manager, if any other staff were let go or that the team was coming back to Toronto on Thursday.
    I don't think Manning was expecting things to be this bad. They didn't have another option in their pocket for manager like they did when Ryan Nelsen was let go. The only thing Manning knew was that this path wasn't working and it had to stop before it got worse/permanent damage was done

    To be honest, I don't think there were many good candidates available when Vanney resigned.

    I mean realistically who did they miss out on who could manage this clubs style and approach? and please don't name any big league EPL, Serie A etc managers (and yes, Crystal Palace is a better job than TFC)

    And if there are guys out there who do fit the mold - did TFC exert too much control for those managers liking and scared those guys off?
    Last edited by jabbronies; 07-06-2021 at 10:17 AM.

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    ^ I guess my issue is not really with the choices made but with the lack of information being presented.

    Manning basically said we had to let Armas go, he is a great guy, we need to move on and left it up to the reporters to dig for questions and answers.

    To me the press conference was either a missed opportunity to present the short term solutions or a deliberate attempt to avoid presenting a plan.

    These guys are just incredibly frustrating to listen to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodgesico View Post
    ^ I guess my issue is not really with the choices made but with the lack of information being presented.

    Manning basically said we had to let Armas go, he is a great guy, we need to move on and left it up to the reporters to dig for questions and answers.

    To me the press conference was either a missed opportunity to present the short term solutions or a deliberate attempt to avoid presenting a plan.

    These guys are just incredibly frustrating to listen to.

    Yes, their PR and messaging is extremely poor, it is even ok to say occasionally we don't know but dammit we will get a solution and then deliver.

    But this two weeks bullshit is exactly that. Talk is cheap, didn't someone say that once.

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    Look at it as a hastily assembled news conference after they realized they couldn't give the current guy any more time to turn it around.

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    My take is that Manning had left Curtis to do his job since hiring him, as he should have. The fact that Manning had to join the press conference at all shows how much his trust in Curtis has plummeted. Curtis should have had a better idea of an interim by now as well, and he was clearly arrogant or has an inability to prepare for anything other than his plan A.

    I think the lack of preparation for the press conference is on Curtis. My guess is Manning called Curtis that day and told him to fire Armas or he was going to fire them both. Obviously didn't feel like he could leave Curtis to handle the press conference on his own. I think it is actually smart not to call Perez the interim as this gives Perez and Curtis/Manning the ability to name him interim if he turns it around, or name an interim if he isn't able to. Maybe they didn't do that on purpose, but if it was me that is what I would have done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodgesico View Post
    There a couple things that are puzzling to me relating to the press conference on Sunday.

    Manning's opening statement was only about 25 seconds long and it didn't give any indication of how they as leadership will move forward. Neither Manning or Curtis talked about who would be interm manager, if any other staff were let go or that the team was coming back to Toronto on Thursday.


    It took 11.5 minutes until John Molinario asked the staff question to find out who would be on the field with the players as coach.


    I can't understand why Manning or Curtis would not want to steer the agenda by providing that information or why it took 11.5 minutes for a journalist to ask. It took 23 minutes to talk about coming back to Toronto and no details were given until a follow up question was asked later.


    Does anyone else have thoughts on this?


    I am not sure but until the question was asked about interm manager by Molinaro I don't think it was official public knowledge. I know Molinaro tweeted it at 4:14 PM which is consistent with the presser questioning timeline.


    It must have been a deliberate choice not to give the information in the initial statement. I don't think someone who (to roughly quote Manning from the press conference) has been in MLS for 16 years, has been to 5 MLS cups, been to 7 conference finals, 12 playoffs, missed playoffs only 3 times, worked with 4 GM's and 4 head coaches coaches would forget to let the world know the short term path forward.


    Could they? Am I being naive about this?
    I agree with you. It was very odd indeed. Normally you'd make the statement first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Look at it as a hastily assembled news conference after they realized they couldn't give the current guy any more time to turn it around.
    They must have no PR advice. Its pretty basic to say "we fired the coach this morning. he took it with class. we are considering options for an interim but in the meantime javie Perez will be coach. We are confident in Javier who has a strong background from Real Madrid, USMNT and NYCFC, and his UEFA A licence"

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    They must have no PR advice. Its pretty basic to say "we fired the coach this morning. he took it with class. we are considering options for an interim but in the meantime javie Perez will be coach. We are confident in Javier who has a strong background from Real Madrid, USMNT and NYCFC, and his UEFA A licence"
    Well exactly.

    I don’t think it’s over-blowing it to say they did themselves a major disservice with that presser on the weekend. Your results are through the floor and you’re firing a guy you just hired a few months ago after a prolonged search. You hesitated getting rid of him to the point where the results were so farcical you were basically forced to step in. Unmitigated disaster.

    The surface level thing is dousing the fire and buying yourself some breathing room with fans and the press. Underneath that, you have to sell your credibility to those in the organization and potential hires.

    Can you imagine being a potential coaching candidate and seeing the guys who could be your bosses hastily and incoherently explain what happened here and what the plan was? I wouldn’t answer the phone if they called.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Can you imagine being a potential coaching candidate and seeing the guys who could be your bosses hastily and incoherently explain what happened here and what the plan was? I wouldn’t answer the phone if they called.
    I would. If they will give a completely out of his depth boob this much time then even someone mediocre would be given a lot of leeway to implement their system. Thing is a smart manager would have looked at the squad, listened to what Curtis wanted, and then told him it's not feasible but "this idea" is. That's where they are now and now Curtis has learned via trial by fire. Next guy gets to do things his way like Vanney did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post

    The surface level thing is dousing the fire and buying yourself some breathing room with fans and the press. Underneath that, you have to sell your credibility to those in the organization and potential hires.
    This is how I would think about the situation also.

    Everyone had a feeling a change was coming, they must have been atleast thinking of contingencies for a week or more. I can't see any excuse why they could not have handled that press conference better.

    The press conference is a huge red flag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I would. If they will give a completely out of his depth boob this much time then even someone mediocre would be given a lot of leeway to implement their system. Thing is a smart manager would have looked at the squad, listened to what Curtis wanted, and then told him it's not feasible but "this idea" is. That's where they are now and now Curtis has learned via trial by fire. Next guy gets to do things his way like Vanney did.
    I’m sure Curtis had a 1000 page plan he was
    Implementing, Manning probably burned it on Sunday 🤣

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Did he mismanage the Gio situation? He didn't want to pay top dollar for an aging star. He then used that Gio money and got another MLS MVP. A younger one that took us to an MLS Cup Final.

    The Jozy thing - yes was mismanaged.
    I posted about this a lot at the time. You don't let elite players with options get inside 18 months of contract expiry without understanding that it's unstable and that all hell will inevitably break loose.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    In my opinion the handling of Perez could be a sign that Manning has not managed Friisdahl/Tanenbaum/TFC Board on this.

    He may not have in reality (whatever his contract may say) the “authority” to just appoint a new manager, and he may not have socialized this it all. Coaches don’t ever get fired after three months in the other MLSE sports.

    That is one explanation for the weird tap dance.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    In my opinion the handling of Perez could be a sign that Manning has not managed Friisdahl/Tanenbaum/TFC Board on this.

    He may not have in reality (whatever his contract may say) the “authority” to just appoint a new manager, and he may not have socialized this it all. Coaches don’t ever get fired after three months in the other MLSE sports.

    That is one explanation for the weird tap dance.
    He probably does have that authority. Should be a standard part of his duties however, doing a mis-hire to the catastrophic level of Armas will undoubtedly cause some waves. First embarrassment, second the financial hit of the Armas contract for nothing, and last explaining who thought changing a successful style that got us within a game of the shield needed to be changed so abruptly. That hiring was as much of an abject failure as you'll ever see. Even De Boer was better.

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    I figure this is where Manning makes his MLS career bones. He's had some success at other places but often walking into sweetheart deals, like here.

    Now, he has to fix this. He has to nail the manager hire, realizing it's easier to find front office guys who can pull the right strings than it is a tactician who can guide a roomful of athletic egos to victory. He has to weigh how long Curtis has, as any manager coming in has to like him. That won't happen unless he fixes the roster, which is tough.

    So he probably has to find a coach and a manager or someone who can do both roles along with a director of operations.

    There are some decent guys out there, guys who've won a few games. He needs this to be someone who has cachet, but also appears a savvy buy, as well as a consistent producer of winning teams.

    Anyone matching that description isn't going to brook a lot of interference from Ali.

    Curtis is going to have to bring the roster into competitive shape in record time. Any new manager is going to use their early muscle to demand it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Curtis is going to have to bring the roster into competitive shape in record time. Any new manager is going to use their early muscle to demand it.
    And this is where I get concerned.

    His hit rate of capable players vs. duds generally seems okay. But he does a poor job of assessing what the team’s most pressing needs are. And we all have seen the issues with timeliness and negotiations.

    To me he’s more of a talent scout than a full GM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    He probably does have that authority. Should be a standard part of his duties however, doing a mis-hire to the catastrophic level of Armas will undoubtedly cause some waves. First embarrassment, second the financial hit of the Armas contract for nothing, and last explaining who thought changing a successful style that got us within a game of the shield needed to be changed so abruptly. That hiring was as much of an abject failure as you'll ever see. Even De Boer was better.
    The simple fact is that Curtis hired his friend, despite the style being unsuitable. Manning trusted Curtis, but that trust is now gone after such a horrible fiasco. Manning has a lot of capital based on his history, but he knows that things need to go right for TFC. His reputation depends on it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The simple fact is that Curtis hired his friend, despite the style being unsuitable. Manning trusted Curtis, but that trust is now gone after such a horrible fiasco. Manning has a lot of capital based on his history, but he knows that things need to go right for TFC. His reputation depends on it.
    I can’t help but wonder if Manning has the ability to hire someone that can steer a club through change or is his only plan to preach stability? Manning has always done well stepping into situations where stability makes sense, that has no bearing on how well he navigates change.

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    I am catching up here but I don’t buy the narrative that has emerged that Armas was 100% Curtis' hire. Like, I don’t buy it whatsoever. Manning knew Armas but even if he didn’t…sorry, he owns it too.

    All of it.

    It's Manning's responsibility to see that this level of decision is done right. NFW does he get to pretend otherwise, with clever body language.

    He hired Curtis. You buy the ticket, you take the ride.

    I get that something was very off in that press conference but I would be very careful jumping to conclusions based on body language.

    Manning's a survivor.
    Last edited by ensco; 07-07-2021 at 01:37 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

 

 

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