Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 255
  1. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,713
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Funny how little traction this thread got.

    Both Ali and Armas have the smell of something off around them. The results aren't really the issue, but they don't help.

    To say that both hires are poor communicators doesn't quite cover it - they both really come off as vacuous and insincere. If they do it with us, imagine how it must seem to the MLSE bosses ....

    I think Manning is in a bit of a tight spot here. He can't just move on, but it isn't working.....
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  2. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    738
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ^ Shouldn't be that surprising. It's hard for a fan to effectively evaluate a president. Too much that goes on outside of the public eye that we'll never know. All we see is what happens on the field, and as in other sports, the coach and GM are the ones who take the heat.

  3. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    5,320
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Funny how little traction this thread got.

    Both Ali and Armas have the smell of something off around them. The results aren't really the issue, but they don't help.

    To say that both hires are poor communicators doesn't quite cover it - they both really come off as vacuous and insincere. If they do it with us, imagine how it must seem to the MLSE bosses ....

    I think Manning is in a bit of a tight spot here. He can't just move on, but it isn't working.....
    What they are doing to Jozy smells the same way.They could have fined him, had him train for a day on his own, suspended for one game, etc - done something to assert Armas authority - but picking a massive public fight with a club legend (and still the best striker) smacks of insecurity. And its stupid. The fight is a destabilizing distraction when the club is teetering on the edge of a disaster of a season.

  4. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    11,915
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Funny how little traction this thread got.

    Both Ali and Armas have the smell of something off around them. The results aren't really the issue, but they don't help.

    To say that both hires are poor communicators doesn't quite cover it - they both really come off as vacuous and insincere. If they do it with us, imagine how it must seem to the MLSE bosses ....

    I think Manning is in a bit of a tight spot here. He can't just move on, but it isn't working.....
    I read a few threads on Manning from RSL fans last year in which they were not complimentary. They felt he coasted as president. They had success, and he benefited from it, but as soon as certain coaches moved on it was clear he was just taking credit. They didn't develop their DP or player base after their win in 2009 and the club languished.

    He was let go by RSL three months before we hired him as part of a complete front-office reshuffle.

    Twice, the guy has won "MLS executive of the year" only to be let go within two years of the award. In 2002 he presided over the Tampa Bay Mutiny, which had to contract.

    So he seems good at attaching himself to success but he doesn't really produce anything or add anything. IN all three clubs he's been at, he's come in right before a winning year or something noteworthy then the club has slid continually.
    Last edited by jloome; 06-16-2021 at 11:10 AM.

  5. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    4,071
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Who evaluates Manning? Is it the airline bean counter CEO still? MLSE has changed so much since Tim left.

    They're now the usual bog standard faceless corporation. At least when Anselmi or Tim was here we had someone to scapegoat haha.

    Seems like TFC doesn't have anyone at the corporate level giving a shit, say what you will about Anselmi at least tried, he even built us world class facilities, and of course Tim was best thing to ever happen to MLSE.

  6. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    F5
    Posts
    12,889
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Little hard to say, but in general I’m underwhelmed. There’s nothing particularly inspired about his leadership and his choices for the people below him are mediocre.

    If this club truly envisions itself as a leader in North America or has broader ambitions , we’re not going to get there with Manning and company guiding the ship.

    To be frank, MLS has purposely been insular to provide Americas with opportunities, which we sort of have to accept but... it has the side effect of re-treading a lot of experienced people and not providing enough chances for better candidates to step in.

    Did Armas and Ali really deserve second chances in MLS? With a club like TFC? Does Bill Manning really have the chops to be the president? I would say no in all cases. This team needs to look for it’s own Masai, not settle for a bunch of 3rd choice selections, likely offered up by the league.

  7. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,713
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I kind of expect him to quit in the not too distant future. Seems easier than figuring this out. Move on to some big USSF job or something.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  8. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,713
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    say what you will about Anselmi at least tried, he even built us world class facilities, and of course Tim was best thing to ever happen to MLSE.
    No, that's not really right. Anselmi did back grass at BMO (but only with the Edu proceeds, which you could argue was a way for him to not use the sale proceeds to buy other players, which is what should have happened). Leiweke is the one who got Downsview Park done (and that, together with the Raptors facility, is what got Leiweke sideways with MLSE, as that was $50M+ for both)
    Last edited by ensco; 06-16-2021 at 12:20 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  9. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    11,915
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    No, that's not really right. Anselmi did back grass at BMO (but only with the Edu proceeds, which could argue was a way for him to not use the sale proceeds to buy other players, which is what should have happened). Leiweke is the one who got Downsview Park done (and that, together with the Raptors facility, is what got Leiweke sideways with MLSE)
    My social instinct is always to avoid the salesmen/showmen types as being ephemeral hype. But that guy really got shit done.

    Bez was a great GM, too. Man, MLSE is the one really dropping the ball here.

    We had Lieweke, Vanney and Bezbatchenko and now we're looking at 2009 Redux.

  10. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    4,071
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    No, that's not really right. Anselmi did back grass at BMO (but only with the Edu proceeds, which could argue was a way for him to not use the sale proceeds to buy other players, which is what should have happened). Leiweke is the one who got Downsview Park done (and that, together with the Raptors facility, is what got Leiweke sideways with MLSE)
    Ok maybe my memory is failing me. I thought it Anselmi was the one who got the ball rolling on training facilities visiting international teams.

  11. #41
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    5,495
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    For me all the judgement is based on how our upper management handle their direct subordinate.

    So my judgment on Curtis is how long he decides to let Armas run the team into the dirt results wise and how much damage he is allowed to cause in the locker room before making that call. His player acquisitions have been slow but fine and the pieces are clearly there to win so it's all about the Armas apppointment and how long that's forced to last that decides his fate and probably legacy.

    For Manning it's how long he lets Curtis doddle and not do what's necessary in regards to Armas and the the next managerial hire that will be his judgement measuring stick.

    It's a trickle up causality instead of the usual shit rolls downhill way.

  12. #42
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,713
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    For me all the judgement is based on how our upper management handle their direct subordinate.

    So my judgment on Curtis is how long he decides to let Armas run the team into the dirt results wise and how much damage he is allowed to cause in the locker room before making that call. His player acquisitions have been slow but fine and the pieces are clearly there to win so it's all about the Armas apppointment and how long that's forced to last that decides his fate and probably legacy.

    For Manning it's how long he lets Curtis doddle and not do what's necessary in regards to Armas and the the next managerial hire that will be his judgement measuring stick.

    It's a trickle up causality instead of the usual shit rolls downhill way.
    I would amend that to say that Manning clearly had a role in Armas' hiring, possibly even the decisive role

    #Armasout solves nothing, it's peeing in your pants to stay warm, if that isn't the actual root cause problem.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  13. #43
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    5,495
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I would amend that to say that Manning clearly had a role in Armas' hiring, possibly even the decisive role

    #Armasout solves nothing, it's peeing in your pants to stay warm, if that isn't the actual root cause problem.
    I think his role was trusting the guy he directly hired, Curtis to use his MLS/NYRB "knowledge" to hire a manager that can run the team seamlessly after Vanney as is without a major overhaul. That was probably his involvement and also his mistake. Technically his word is the decisive one as he's the one to greenlight or kaibosh any major decisions at the club but I think Manning is a lot less hands on TFC now as MLSE have him juggling all sorts of crap.

    However, I bet Munoz was a Manning hire as he would know him from the RSL connection much like Curtis & Armas.

  14. #44
    RPB Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    1,138
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It is about the vision of your club...

    Do you aspire to be Real Salt Lake or to be one of the three or four big clubs in North America. Right now, i think they are happy with the former, Leweike wasn't.... I think we all demand on this board, we must aspire to more.

    Letting ego's run wild and humiliating a club legend is wrong (If Jozy was wrong, I expect Jozy to step up as well.)... it is time for Manning to step in. Sitting Jozy when when he should be in your lineup is just egos out of control.... until he is sold he needs to be in the lineup or an explanation to fans.

    Clearly they are at an impasse... time for the President to do his job, because the others cannot.

  15. #45
    RPB Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northwest Territories (Section 226)
    Posts
    7,831
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I have to wonder how much negative effect it had to put the Argos under Manning's control as well. I mean that team also has lots of issues, many very different from TFC. Seems like a dumb arrangement.

  16. #46
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,713
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I think his role was trusting the guy he directly hired, Curtis to use his MLS/NYRB "knowledge" to hire a manager that can run the team seamlessly after Vanney as is without a major overhaul. That was probably his involvement and also his mistake. Technically his word is the decisive one as he's the one to greenlight or kaibosh any major decisions at the club but I think Manning is a lot less hands on TFC now as MLSE have him juggling all sorts of crap.

    However, I bet Munoz was a Manning hire as he would know him from the RSL connection much like Curtis & Armas.
    "One day into the job and new Toronto FC coach Chris Armas is already feeling right at home.

    The former New York Red Bulls boss has extensive ties to his new club. Toronto GM Ali Curtis was sporting director at the Red Bulls while Armas was an assistant coach prior to getting the top job there.

    Back in the early '90s, Armas played for Puerto Rico alongside current Toronto president Bill Manning. Both men spent time in the USL with Armas at the Long Island Rough Riders and Manning — who went on to become the Rough Riders GM prior to working in MLS — at the New York Fever. ..."

    https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/mls...o-fc-1.5873813
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  17. #47
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    273
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well congrats to Armas on getting a job where his two direct superiors were already his buddies.

    I think the predictions of Armas staying put until there's no chance of us making the playoffs are correct. We're screwed until 2022

  18. #48
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,373
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavemTFC View Post
    Well congrats to Armas on getting a job where his two direct superiors were already his buddies.

    I think the predictions of Armas staying put until there's no chance of us making the playoffs are correct. We're screwed until 2022
    I think exactly the same.
    Nobody is getting fired here until TFC-s record (and club image) will be stomped so deeply into the mud, that it's beyond any repair for 2021.
    And then we'll lose another 1/3 - 1/2 season next year adjusting to new coach/style of play, etc.
    Last edited by PizzaEatingYeti; 06-17-2021 at 05:12 AM.

  19. #49
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    F5
    Posts
    12,889
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DavemTFC View Post
    Well congrats to Armas on getting a job where his two direct superiors were already his buddies.

    I think the predictions of Armas staying put until there's no chance of us making the playoffs are correct. We're screwed until 2022
    Let’s see the size of the face plant they have to deal with. At a certain point, this is damage mitigation for Ali and Bill. They might like Armas and be familiar with him, but neither is going to take a bullet for him.

    Imagine authorizing extra spend to continue to make your team the highest paid side in MLS and reading headlines about the type of things we’ve seen this year. Then, seeing your high paid side sitting close to last place, next to recent expansion sides and thrifty spenders.

    Our BoG might be stupid, but they aren’t that stupid.

  20. #50
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Burlington
    Posts
    4,118
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    No, that's not really right. Anselmi did back grass at BMO (but only with the Edu proceeds, which you could argue was a way for him to not use the sale proceeds to buy other players, which is what should have happened). Leiweke is the one who got Downsview Park done (and that, together with the Raptors facility, is what got Leiweke sideways with MLSE, as that was $50M+ for both)
    Training ground was opened before Tim L was hired. Think you are mixing it up the BMO renos.

    In April 2011, Toronto FC unveiled plans to develop a state-of-the-art facility and soccer program that will look to develop the next generation of Canadian players through coaching, training, technology, equipment and support.
    BMO Training Ground and the Toronto FC Academy opened its doors the summer of 2012.
    Located on 14 Acres of land at Downsview Park, BMO training ground represents a $21 Million investment made by Toronto FC and Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment in the future of Canadian soccer.
    https://www.torontofc.ca/academy/teams/about/bmotg

    April 26, 2013: MLSE hires Tim Leiweke as president and CEO. In his run at Los Angeles-based AEG, Leiweke had built a reputation as a visionary, a big-picture thinker and a skilled leader.
    https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs...t-mlse.html?rf

  21. #51
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,713
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ^You are right. My bad.

    I take it back Tom Anselmi, wherever you are!
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  22. #52
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    646
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The more I think and mull over the present situation, the more I think Ensco is right. Manning needs to be the one to take the fall. I don’t think anything will happen until the team is back home, but the issues with the team appear to be systemic and those sorts of problems can only be fixed by changing the head of the organization. If Armas and Ali can survive a change in leadership, then good for them, but I highly doubt it.

  23. #53
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    3,036
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    One of the things I'm beginning to suspect is that Manning is a coat-tail rider. I think most teams have these members of the front office, but just having one or two members of the front office that are exceptional can cover them up. But if the President, General Manager, and Coach are all coat-tail riders, then you see problems with the organization. Kind of like TFC the past year - Little communication, team dynamics askew, and no answers.

    Manning got the job based on his experience in the RSL Front Office. In hindsight, I think we can all see that he was riding the coat-tails of Lagerway and when Seattle headhunted him, he immediately jumped onto the coat-tails of Bez and Vanney at TFC. I think we could see the cracks after Bez left, and the hire of Curtis is directly on Manning, and the hire of Armas is indirectly on Manning through Curtis. I think you need to start with the best at the top and while Manning was a top executive in MLS 1.0, the league may have passed him by. I think TFC needs a Masai Ujiri-type leader who started as GM and was promoted to president and appointed a new GM. I think that would help provide some continuity and organizational history.

  24. #54
    RPB Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northwest Territories (Section 226)
    Posts
    7,831
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    One of the things I'm beginning to suspect is that Manning is a coat-tail rider. I think most teams have these members of the front office, but just having one or two members of the front office that are exceptional can cover them up. But if the President, General Manager, and Coach are all coat-tail riders, then you see problems with the organization. Kind of like TFC the past year - Little communication, team dynamics askew, and no answers.

    Manning got the job based on his experience in the RSL Front Office. In hindsight, I think we can all see that he was riding the coat-tails of Lagerway and when Seattle headhunted him, he immediately jumped onto the coat-tails of Bez and Vanney at TFC. I think we could see the cracks after Bez left, and the hire of Curtis is directly on Manning, and the hire of Armas is indirectly on Manning through Curtis. I think you need to start with the best at the top and while Manning was a top executive in MLS 1.0, the league may have passed him by. I think TFC needs a Masai Ujiri-type leader who started as GM and was promoted to president and appointed a new GM. I think that would help provide some continuity and organizational history.
    Actually reminds me of Kevin Payne. When he came to TFC, I got a serious warning from a close friend in DC who is very knowledgable about the local scene there. He also knew a number of people who worked for a long time at DCU. Payne had a good reputation externally, mostly as he was one of the first execs to work with supporters groups. At DC he failed at things he was supposed to do (like building a stadium and selling tickets), yet got involved with things where he had no clue whatsoever (like player scouting and transactions).

    Perhaps another one of those situations where TFC didn't know who to hire, and asked the league for a recommendation. So MLS sends you somebody that has been around a long time, probably knows too much about the skeletons in the closets, and needs to be kept happy. Like Mo Johnston, Kevin Payne and Bill Manning.

  25. #55
    RPB Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    221
    Posts
    18,247
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Manning to me has done really good at the business side & the game experience.


    His two biggest hires though when it comes to the team on the field have not been good enough.

  26. #56
    RPB Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northwest Territories (Section 226)
    Posts
    7,831
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Manning to me has done really good at the business side & the game experience.

    His two biggest hires though when it comes to the team on the field have not been good enough.
    Really, what's gotten much better on the business side and game experience? Seems like most of the big changes were triggered by Leiweke.

    I don't think he's done well on the Argo's business side. Not sure if that's a hopeless undertaking though.

  27. #57
    RPB Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    221
    Posts
    18,247
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Really, what's gotten much better on the business side and game experience? Seems like most of the big changes were triggered by Leiweke.

    Its been awhile since we've been there but I remember the pregame was static & stale & there was no attempt to bring in modern conveniences.

  28. #58
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    15,713
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    So Armas is going to have to go. I doubt he lasts 48 hours…

    Tanenbaum cannot allow Manning and Curtis to do anything other than an interim hire here.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  29. #59
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Scarborough
    Posts
    4,071
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The team needs an honest and open discussion regarding the Jozy situation. Part of the reason we are so abysmal is because our DP striker is not playing, whether that's his own fault, or the egos in management, we need clarity.

    The team cannot be allowed to just sweep our talisman under the rug. Tanenbaum, and the board need put everyone under a microscope, this is horseshit.

  30. #60
    RPB Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    221
    Posts
    18,247
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    So Armas is going to have to go. I doubt he lasts 48 hours…

    Tanenbaum cannot allow Manning and Curtis to do anything other than an interim hire here.
    I hope you are right.

    I think in a normal world you would be right.


    I still get the feeling management firmly believes this is all due to not being at home. Until tonight, I agreed with that. But what I saw tonight was waaaay deeper in terms of coach capability.


    Manning isn't stupid though & he knows where this is going. He almost fired Vanney in 2018 after that year. The Manning that thought that one through would make the decision tonight. Do we still have that Manning though?

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •