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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I mostly agree with your post, ensco, but I think the bolded areas should be delegated, not run directly by Manning.
    Sure, but the thing is, Manning owns the outcomes, whether he hires someone to do them for him or not. The head sets the strategy, participates and approves the decisions, gets the applause, and faces the music.

    In the specific case of Curtis, this is even more true - he had almost no managerial experience. If you left him alone to make big decisions, you don’t get to act surprised at what happens afterwards

    (There can be extenuating circumstances- eg when a critical employee is hired away or gets sick)
    Last edited by ensco; 01-11-2022 at 03:42 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  2. #242
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    Manning's transfermarket comments are trending today on Soccer reddit.

    These comments are gold.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comm..._on_insigne_i/

    The big Sam scouting tactic
    FM tactics right here lol.
    Just load the editor and see which player has the highest PA lol
    A lot of people in here laughing at this process, but this is an example of a hands-on president doing research. You may not agree entirely with the research (e.g, going off how marketable a player is vs. how good they are competitively), but damn a lot of clubs here could only dream of having management - a president no less - that was in-tune to the sporting side.
    That's the kind of stuff you do as a kid, building a team writing on paper looking at transfermarkt
    This is what I do on FM. Look at the NTs and throw money at end of contract players.
    Crazy that nobody thought of this before. Outsmarted a whole continent of clubs.
    Dude is playing fifa career mode in real life, Brand exposure +10
    In all seriousness, Football manager has a very extensive database of players and many clubs use it.
    Last edited by Richard; 01-11-2022 at 06:36 PM.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Sure, but the thing is, Manning owns the outcomes, whether he hires someone to do them for him or not. The head sets the strategy, participates and approves the decisions, gets the applause, and faces the music.

    In the specific case of Curtis, this is even more true - he had almost no managerial experience. If you left him alone to make big decisions, you don’t get to act surprised at what happens afterwards

    (There can be extenuating circumstances- eg when a critical employee is hired away or gets sick)
    Don't disagree there.


  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Manning's transfermarket comments are trending today on Soccer reddit.

    .

    Soccer reddit is filled with people who don't realise either

    a) they really should be asking themselves the AITA question

    b) even if they did, they would get the AITA response wrong

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Soccer reddit is filled with people who don't realise either

    a) they really should be asking themselves the AITA question

    b) even if they did, they would get the AITA response wrong
    Sorry, but you lost me lol.

    Had to google what that is....did not know there was whole sub section for that.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Section 223 View Post
    I agree whole heartedly with how this went down , this basically fell on Manning, and that Gattuso is hilarious. Well written Mr In between , sounds like you got this Manning joker all figured out.
    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^^My favourite type of post: a credibly explained, highly speculative theory about what happened!
    Section 223 and ensco, as a newbie I appreciate the comments and welcome the kind feedback.
    Section 223... IMO the best 'seats' at BMO; vantage wise. Certainly miss the view from the West Stands towards the east and of Toronto's cityscape since the East Stand upgrade.
    ensco... my catalyst, wait until you read my speculative post about MU/MLSE/TFC/BOGERS. Collecting my thoughts on the matter; hopefully... one day... soon.
    ensco what you said, what you apologized for ... I think you have an idea about my feelings and position.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Hi Larry.

    Some people here (well, me, anyway)...


    ...and me...

    Boy oh boy, ensco, man on man, step away from the board for a day... talk about going for the jugular!
    What happened to the other thread, other day's, am paraphrasing...
    'Let me collect my thoughts on Manning, maybe, sometime later, in an appropriate thread, I'll let everyone know what I think'.
    Thoughts quick and aplenty. Do not disagree. Well stated.

    Points by Oldtimer, as well as, ag futbol, MightyDM, about delegating... sure... agree with...
    But in the end, when your the guy, with a team of underlings, you must supervise meaningfully...
    It's macro-manage v micro-manage, trust but verify, delegate with oversight.
    Manning on occasions seems to wander from this corporate principal for whatever reasons.
    In the end, his fiefdom, his head... he is responsible.
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-12-2022 at 10:30 AM.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Manning's transfermarket comments are trending today on Soccer reddit.

    These comments are gold.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Soccer reddit is filled with people who don't realise either

    a) they really should be asking themselves the AITA question

    b) even if they did, they would get the AITA response wrong
    Richard great post.

    OgtheDim, lol, AITA was the registered user name I was originally going to go with for this RPB Forum.

  9. #249
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    I am surprised at how much people put on Manning for responsibility. This is corporate, there’re RACI models for a reason. The President is not Responsible for everything. There is an entire team of back office people driving a lot.

    For example Manning is not responsible for the academy. He says “make sure we have good players” and then is Informed of progress. There is an entire structure in the academy alone filled with people Responsible and Accountable for various aspects of it.

    Grouping the GM and President as the same role is like saying the CEO is just as responsible for all of the COO’s responsibilities. Just doesn’t happen. The CEO (president/manning) brings in a COO (GM/sporting director/Curtis/Bb) to manage the operations.

    If the operations start to fall apart, it is the CEO’s responsibility to reassess who is responsible for it. In the same way you don’t fire the COO for bringing in a sales person. You don’t fire the CEO for bringing in a bad COO. You fire the COO if he brings in an entire team of bad personnel. And you fire the CEO after he brings in an entire bad team of executives.

    To me, we have to judge manning on the big picture exclusively and we start to assess him if BB shits the bed as much as Curtis did.

    I agree with the review, I guess I just think it should be directed to Curtis and others in the back office. Manning saw what we started to see, waited too long though, then acted to correct.

  10. #250
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    Plus Manning is the president of the Argos…

    duel role provides more security for the botch Curtis hiring and the attempted retool of an aging squad

  11. #251
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    I have said a few times, months ago, that latest at the end of the 2021 season Manning should have been shown the door (together with his buddy Curtis).

    I do vehemently agree to disagree with all those giving a passing note for Manning, and those saying that he has been giving too many other areas to lead/being busy with (like "saving" the Argos, general marketing) to have time/being really responsible for the disaster that 2021 was for TFC.

  12. #252
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    ^
    I don't think anyone is giving him a pass. I think everyone sees the Curtis hire as a massive failure, as well as giving him enough authority to wreck the team.
    The only question is at what point do you fire a guy? Usually a team president is given 2 GMs failing before they are shown the door. However, is the Curtis disaster enough to let go of Manning after 1 fail? Is there any compensating offset by how well he is correcting things? How would the board see things?

    The great thing is that football is a game of opinions and we can have a robust discussion.


  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    ^
    I don't think anyone is giving him a pass. I think everyone sees the Curtis hire as a massive failure, as well as giving him enough authority to wreck the team.
    The only question is at what point do you fire a guy? Usually a team president is given 2 GMs failing before they are shown the door. However, is the Curtis disaster enough to let go of Manning after 1 fail? Is there any compensating offset by how well he is correcting things? How would the board see things?

    The great thing is that football is a game of opinions and we can have a robust discussion.
    After 1 fail….. ahhhh ok. Ensco’s letter above to Larry Tannenbaum spells out all of Manning’s failings. My humble opinion is that Tannenbaum is calling all the shots now, Larry instructed Manning to go out and get a world class name player, “here’s the money”

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Sure, but the thing is, Manning owns the outcomes, whether he hires someone to do them for him or not. The head sets the strategy, participates and approves the decisions, gets the applause, and faces the music.

    In the specific case of Curtis, this is even more true - he had almost no managerial experience. If you left him alone to make big decisions, you don’t get to act surprised at what happens afterwards

    (There can be extenuating circumstances- eg when a critical employee is hired away or gets sick)
    Who would be firing Manning or re-structuring his role if it comes to that, does he report directly to the board or to Michael Friisdahl? Would it be the same for all the team president for that matter. On another related note til this day I do not believe I have ever seen him speak publically on MLSE matters.

    Recently I looked at the current makeup of the MLSE board and noticed that Melinda Rogers-Hixon had joined, taking up on of Rogers three seats. Her brother Edward has been on it since day one of the Bell Rogers partnership. Maybe I am putting too much thought into this. But with the Rogers powerplay that has gone on with the two siblings on opposite sides of this fight, could this cause issues for the board? I have always wondered if many things on the day to day basis are bounced off Larry before it went to the full board, a sounding board of sorts?

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

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    Everything seems to have come apart by the seams the last few years, Manning has to be on very thin ice. And he should be, he decided to sit back and see how things played out.

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrillos View Post
    I am surprised at how much people put on Manning for responsibility. This is corporate, there’re RACI models for a reason. The President is not Responsible for everything. There is an entire team of back office people driving a lot.

    For example Manning is not responsible for the academy. He says “make sure we have good players” and then is Informed of progress. There is an entire structure in the academy alone filled with people Responsible and Accountable for various aspects of it.

    Grouping the GM and President as the same role is like saying the CEO is just as responsible for all of the COO’s responsibilities. Just doesn’t happen. The CEO (president/manning) brings in a COO (GM/sporting director/Curtis/Bb) to manage the operations.

    If the operations start to fall apart, it is the CEO’s responsibility to reassess who is responsible for it. In the same way you don’t fire the COO for bringing in a sales person. You don’t fire the CEO for bringing in a bad COO. You fire the COO if he brings in an entire team of bad personnel. And you fire the CEO after he brings in an entire bad team of executives.

    To me, we have to judge manning on the big picture exclusively and we start to assess him if BB shits the bed as much as Curtis did.

    I agree with the review, I guess I just think it should be directed to Curtis and others in the back office. Manning saw what we started to see, waited too long though, then acted to correct.
    Been thinking about your post for a while; brewing on it. Decided to circle back and comment.
    May not be understanding the gist correctly; we may be agreeing with each other in our own ways after all.
    Without a doubt, in a ‘typical’ corporate flow chart- RACI models- sense I would have to agree with you and all your points.
    However, I am just not so sure MLSE is ‘typical’ in that sense; it is nuanced.

    In a ‘Sporting’ side verses a ‘Business’ daily operational side I believe Manning’s focus could be much narrower.
    His oversight could be more immediate, clear and constant then most would presume.
    That is why I would hold Manning essentially accountable for any and all on-field product issues.
    Thus his chances or strikes should be in check; more limited.

    IMO, what sets this organization apart from a ‘regular’ business, not in principle but in pragmatics, is that it is a corporate umbrella entity consisting of several local horizontally integrated ‘sporting’ franchises. A unique resource business with and often relying on some intangible metrics. Much of its operational aspects seem to me to be top down siloed with a lot of cross-sectional synergies and integration. To be honest, in such a case, I do not think Manning or any of the other team presidents are too devoted to or dealing with the daily grind for instance of merchandising, concessions, facility outsourcing, marketing, ticket sales or advertising etc.; not part of their immediate duties or mandate. MLSE would have its own departments and leaders for such; across the umbrella. Although, it is common sense that any presidents would be apart of, have regular input, receive reports and be updated through meetings on those matters; all within each owns’ purview.

    IMO, in such a set up, the president of each sports franchise team’s primary concern is really the on-field product et al.; on a sharp sliding scale of the professional team down to any subsidiary feeders. On-field product being the engine that drives all other aspects. My understanding of how sports franchises run seems that they involve a basic chain of command and responsibility… Ownership, Team President, Team General Manager and Team Coach; with some of those levels in descendance with their own exponential work entourages. This is evident in many of the cases of poor performance and the proverbial ‘cleaning of house’. Usually, the Coach and his immediate team, then the General Manager and maybe a few immediate assistants, while less frequently, the President or all three or some sort of combination there of; depending on the situation and sport.

    Accordingly, for me, Manning must be judged not only on the big picture but the details as well... regarding the on-field product.
    Last edited by Mr. Inbetween; 01-24-2022 at 12:22 AM.

  17. #257
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    Reposted from the roster spec thread

    **********

    Ok, lets go back a bit & look at the various FA & the like signings & think about all this for a moment (not going to look at homegrowns etc)

    In terms of just getting along with people signings

    2013

    Caldwell - good
    Earnshaw - good
    Cesar - good
    Laba - good
    Rey - middling but rumours of
    Elmer - not so good
    Urruti - unknown


    2014

    Morrow - good
    Jackson - middling
    Gilberto - good
    Defoe - the POSTER BOY FOR NOT FITTING IN
    Bradley - the POSTER BOY FOR ALL THINGS GOOD ABOUT A TEAMMATE
    Nakajima-Farran - bad
    Warner - good
    Oduro - middling
    Creavalle - good

    2015

    Delgado - good
    Bono - good
    Jozy - good
    Zavs - good
    Perquis - middling but rumours of
    Cheyrou - good
    Seba - good
    Kantari - middling
    Williams - good
    Herc Gomez - good

    2016

    Moor - good
    Beitashour good
    Johnson - good
    Irwin - good
    Ricketts - good

    2017
    Mavinga - good
    Vasquez - good
    Hernandez - good
    Hasler - good (the guy is now a TFC meme for caring during dissapointment)

    2018

    VDW - BAD
    Aketke - bad
    Bakero - good
    Auro - good

    2019

    DeLeon - good (apart from vax thing)
    Ciman - good
    Boyd - unknown
    Westberg - good
    Pozuelo - good
    Laryea - good
    Gonzalez - good
    Gallardo - middling but rumours of bad training habits
    Mullins - good
    Benezet - good

    2020
    Piatti - good


    2021
    Soteldo - rumours of bad
    Lawrence - unknown
    Dwyer - unknown


    **************

    Point is looking at this that MOST of the people signed have gotten along with their teammates. TFC usually doesn't sign people who are disruptive. But, when they do...oh boy

  18. #258
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    ^I think 98% of pro athletes know how to get along. Their livelihoods depend on it.

    It's the stars, former stars, highly paid or formerly highly paid, that have their FU money, that cause problems. vdW had banked millions and he didn’t give a crap. Giovinco was uncoachable but nobody cared, because he did try/care (and there is a pretty serious risk that is still true). Jozy, well, probably the same as Gio (no need to discuss ad nauseum)

    MB is the exception, not the rule.

    (There is real risk with Insigne and Salcedo along these lines too.)
    Last edited by ensco; 01-29-2022 at 01:28 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  19. #259
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    This is a fireable offense. Zero excuse for something like this to happen.

    We are led to believe that TFC gave Jozy 4 years, and included a player option near the end?

    Both of these scenarios(player/team option exercise) is incredibly incompetent on managements part.




    Manning should have been packing his bag along with Curtis.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post


    This is a fireable offense. Zero excuse for something like this to happen.

    We are led to believe that TFC gave Jozy 4 years, and included a player option near the end?

    Both of these scenarios(player/team option exercise) is incredibly incompetent on managements part.




    Manning should have been packing his bag along with Curtis.


    strongly agree- tried to strong arm Seba- when standard practice is to resolve situation with 1 year remaining - seba signed else where- manning panicked - over paid jozy-.

    Dont kid yourself if manning wasnt aware of curtis and armas plan and how they planned to handle strong personalities- tried to save face to have jozy return for what reason? probably thought TFC could still make the playoffs.

    His ego almost burned this club to the ground. regardless if there is a team of others involved, his ultimate decision making and trust into hiring without even doing any due diligence is huge red flag.

    at this point he escaped the any backlash.

    Signs 1 big star and increased pricing by 43% during the highest inflation era .lol

  21. #261
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    I don't really think Manning is in "charge" anymore. Not in the true meaning of the word.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  22. #262
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    Well I can tell you he is in Austin. Was just on his flight.

 

 

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