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  1. #211
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    The only way to compare leagues (such as Belgium vs MLS) non-subjectively is competitive coefficients. Since that only occurs in the Club World Cup, and neither Belgium nor MLS has teams good enough yet to make it there, we're left discussing subjective valuations, which is impossible to prove or refute.


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    The best non bias player rating system that I know of is FIFA the video game.

    They have over 9000 members physically watch and rate players. They range from players to coach’s to professional scouts and season ticket holders.

    They consider the feedback which includes the data on over 18,000 players and 700 clubs. It’s then given to editors and combined and reviewed with their own data points.

    It seems a bit ridiculous that a video game could be a tool for player ratings, but when I analyze their rating formula they are seriously accurate. There really isn’t a whole lot to dispute in regards to TFC ratings for example. There will always be debate but it’s always within a couple points and it gets it pretty close to bang on.

    Obviously they aren’t perfect but as a general consensus they give you pretty good idea

    They have the average MLS player at 67
    The average Belgium league A player at 68
    The average Liga MX player is at 69

    If any one knows a better model let me know but these guys do a pretty good job and pass my eye test.

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    I will add that the Football Manager series has the #1 database if you want to compare leagues and players, it's actually used by professional clubs to scout players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I will add that the Football Manager series has the #1 database if you want to compare leagues and players, it's actually used by professional clubs to scout players.
    FM is much better. FIFA ratings are notoriously dubious to the point where it’s become an inside joke online.

    I’m with Oldtimer to an extent. There are statistics and coefficients to be used to determine this. They’re problematic as well (some leagues have caps or bizarre rules that make it difficult to compare them in any case), but a subjective opinion is probably the worst way to look at the issue.

    Another way to look at it is that Toronto FC’s 2018 average salary puts us near clubs like Girona, Eibar, Shanghai Shenua, and Nice. So, for the money we spend we could be a bloated Chinese team (they’re up there for the same reason TFC is) or a mid-table La Liga or French team. In fact, TFC spent more than the average salary for every league other than China and the Big 5.

    Houston in 2018 spent as much on average as SPL teams like Aberdeen or Hearts, and the cheaper J.League teams, and like half the MLS average spend. They’re also half the salary bill of the average in the Belgian league which includes teams playing in front of 1,000 fans.

    Makes you wonder.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defoe View Post

    They have the average MLS player at 67
    The average Belgium league A player at 68
    The average Liga MX player is at 69

    If any one knows a better model let me know but these guys do a pretty good job and pass my eye test.
    I wonder what the median would be - I suspect the MLS is lower then LigaMx or the Jupiter League.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    FM is much better. FIFA ratings are notoriously dubious to the point where it’s become an inside joke online.

    I’m with Oldtimer to an extent. There are statistics and coefficients to be used to determine this. They’re problematic as well (some leagues have caps or bizarre rules that make it difficult to compare them in any case), but a subjective opinion is probably the worst way to look at the issue.

    Another way to look at it is that Toronto FC’s 2018 average salary puts us near clubs like Girona, Eibar, Shanghai Shenua, and Nice. So, for the money we spend we could be a bloated Chinese team (they’re up there for the same reason TFC is) or a mid-table La Liga or French team. In fact, TFC spent more than the average salary for every league other than China and the Big 5.

    Houston in 2018 spent as much on average as SPL teams like Aberdeen or Hearts, and the cheaper J.League teams, and like half the MLS average spend. They’re also half the salary bill of the average in the Belgian league which includes teams playing in front of 1,000 fans.

    Makes you wonder.
    Looking at TFC player ratings is there even one player rating that doesn’t seem accurate ? If so, let me know. I don’t have bias’ because at the end of the day it’s about the truth and nothing else. Who on TFC has an inaccurate rating ?

    Over 9000 people, a blend of scouts, season ticket holders and actual coach’s rate players and give them to EA. These aren’t nobody’s guessing. I find them pretty good if you’re using it as a guideline. Name a player on TFC who has a wildly inaccurate or unfair rating who has been in the league longer then 2 years

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defoe View Post
    Looking at TFC player ratings is there even one player rating that doesn’t seem accurate ? If so, let me know. I don’t have bias’ because at the end of the day it’s about the truth and nothing else. Who on TFC has an inaccurate rating ?

    Over 9000 people, a blend of scouts, season ticket holders and actual coach’s rate players and give them to EA. These aren’t nobody’s guessing. I find them pretty good if you’re using it as a guideline. Name a player on TFC who has a wildly inaccurate or unfair rating who has been in the league longer then 2 years
    It’s a video game designed to make money through microtransactions. Their player data is very superficial and lacks granularity, and everyone complains about ratings incessantly.

    Remember Robben no finesse shot? Lewandowski’s wank penalty rating? Cavani’s bad finishing stats, etc. They also place more emphasis on celebrity and past exploits rather than current form.

    You do realize that you can apply to be a “FIFA Talent Scout,” just like anyone else? It’s not complicated. Spend 5 minutes watching highlights and submit your rankings, and get a free copy of FIFA. They’re under an NDA but I know a few data editors and scouts for various teams and you may be confused as to who is actually providing the data... The large majority of the rankings are done by hobbyists essentially for free or very little monetary compensation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    It’s a video game designed to make money through microtransactions. Their player data is very superficial and lacks granularity, and everyone complains about ratings incessantly.

    Remember Robben no finesse shot? Lewandowski’s wank penalty rating? Cavani’s bad finishing stats, etc. They also place more emphasis on celebrity and past exploits rather than current form.

    You do realize that you can apply to be a “FIFA Talent Scout,” just like anyone else? It’s not complicated. Spend 5 minutes watching highlights and submit your rankings, and get a free copy of FIFA. They’re under an NDA but I know a few data editors and scouts for various teams and you may be confused as to who is actually providing the data... The large majority of the rankings are done by hobbyists essentially for free or very little monetary compensation.
    Yeah the ratings are pretty terrible for ex Jonathan David is a 70 and Osorio is a 71 right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    It’s a video game designed to make money through microtransactions. Their player data is very superficial and lacks granularity, and everyone complains about ratings incessantly.

    Remember Robben no finesse shot? Lewandowski’s wank penalty rating? Cavani’s bad finishing stats, etc. They also place more emphasis on celebrity and past exploits rather than current form.

    You do realize that you can apply to be a “FIFA Talent Scout,” just like anyone else? It’s not complicated. Spend 5 minutes watching highlights and submit your rankings, and get a free copy of FIFA. They’re under an NDA but I know a few data editors and scouts for various teams and you may be confused as to who is actually providing the data... The large majority of the rankings are done by hobbyists essentially for free or very little monetary compensation.
    That's pretty redundant, we know that. As a macro tool, ratings are in the ball park which is what you would expect.

    People that are watching the game, none the less are gathering data on players and making pretty rational judgements. I look at TFC's ratings and the overall ratings are on point. Not perfect but I wouldn't expect granularity.

    It's a good tool to see the approximate value of a player within 2 years.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikmacdo View Post
    Yeah the ratings are pretty terrible for ex Jonathan David is a 70 and Osorio is a 71 right now.
    Osorio had a better 2018 than a lot of players.

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    I am not a game player but there are certain things in life that don’t lend themselves to crowdsourcing. Player ratings in sports would be high on that list.

    As a for instance: England are always among the “likeliest” teams to win any World Cup they are in, regardless of form. It's a factor of the sheer number of English punters in the world betting/casino ecosystem.

    Market ranking in terms of FIFA sales has to be a strong co-efficient in those FIFA ratings. I would bet my hat on that.
    Last edited by ensco; 03-27-2019 at 05:55 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defoe View Post
    That's pretty redundant, we know that. As a macro tool, ratings are in the ball park which is what you would expect.

    People that are watching the game, none the less are gathering data on players and making pretty rational judgements. I look at TFC's ratings and the overall ratings are on point. Not perfect but I wouldn't expect granularity.

    It's a good tool to see the approximate value of a player within 2 years.
    That’s changing what you said though. The “scouts, coaches, season ticket holders” really aren’t.

    Overall ratings are actually the least meaningful part of FIFA ratings as they’re basically made up and factor in intangibles (and marketing). There’s no difference between two players rated 94? What’s the difference between two central defenders with a 70? If you want a speedy winger, is the guy who is slow but has a better overall rating better?

    What was Giovinco’s FIFA rating before he came to TFC? Why was Howard the best GK in MLS?

    IMO looking at FIFA ratings for judging players is missing the point and being lazy. Very few people take FIFA ratings as even plausible and it’s pretty much an inside joke where you laugh at the guy who judges players based on their FIFA cards at this point...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I am not a game player but there are certain things in life that don’t lend themselves to crowdsourcing. Player ratings in sports would be high on that list.

    As a for instance: England are always among the “likeliest” teams to win any World Cup they are in, regardless of form. It's a factor of the sheer number of English punters in the world betting/casino ecosystem.

    Market ranking in terms of FIFA sales has to be a strong co-efficient in those FIFA ratings. I would bet my hat on that.
    Pardon me, but are you sure Modric isn’t the best player ever? He has a card with a 99 rating...

    Oh... sorry, I forgot that Reus previously partnered with FIFA and had a 100 rated card.

    Reus = best footballer ever, QED via FIFA video game card ratings.

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    So Osorio et al vs Bradley et all twice in the Fall for Concacaf Nations League.

    Here's to a game vs. the US at BMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    So Osorio et al vs Bradley et all twice in the Fall for Concacaf Nations League.

    Here's to a game vs. the US at BMO.
    Those games are going to be fun, but a little weird, to watch.

    Imagine cheering against Bradley and Jozy at BMO. Crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    Those games are going to be fun, but a little weird, to watch.

    Imagine cheering against Bradley and Jozy at BMO. Crazy.
    My first thoughts too

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    Quote Originally Posted by DinamoTFC View Post
    My first thoughts too
    Me too. Still not sure I can train my brain to do that for a game but I am sure I will. Will be really odd though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    Those games are going to be fun, but a little weird, to watch.

    Imagine cheering against Bradley and Jozy at BMO. Crazy.
    We already did in 2007. I'm not sure that they will be playing - US seem to be more focussed on youth for the next WC.

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    I'll just picture Clint Dempsey when the two of them get the ball, it will make it easier for hateful things to spew out of my gob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton_Red View Post
    We already did in 2007. I'm not sure that they will be playing - US seem to be more focussed on youth for the next WC.
    Dont let the haters fool you. Jozy is more of a question mark, just because of health .... but the US has no other strikers right now. Bradley is still one of the key players on the team. He still goes 90 minutes every time. From Tuesday:

    https://twitter.com/torontofc/status...028092416?s=21
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Dont let the haters fool you. Jozy is more of a question mark, just because of health .... but the US has no other strikers right now. Bradley is still one of the key players on the team. He still goes 90 minutes every time. From Tuesday:

    https://twitter.com/torontofc/status...028092416?s=21
    Agreed, as much as the fans love to hate them both for what happened vs T&T, I don't see either being dropped from the MNT roster any time soon.

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    I think they move on from Bradley after either the Gold Cup or this round of the Nations League. Altidore is their man up top though. IF he's fit, he'll play in that game somewhere here in Canada - it would be kinda interesting to see it here in Toronto but I suspect that fixture pressure on the pitch might preclude a match.

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    Our eSports guy got suspended for the rest of the season:

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/...etitive-season

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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    Our eSports guy got suspended for the rest of the season:

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/...etitive-season
    What did he do, take PEDs? Lol.

  25. #235
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    Do we get any cap relief?

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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    Those games are going to be fun, but a little weird, to watch.

    Imagine cheering against Bradley and Jozy at BMO. Crazy.
    I’m not going to. I will cheer against The USA, for Canada, but will never boo Bradley or Altidore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Do we get any cap relief?
    good one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    What did he do, take PEDs? Lol.
    Got caught coin buying. Don’t really blame him though.

    You joke, but everyone in esports is taking PEDs like adderall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I think they move on from Bradley after either the Gold Cup or this round of the Nations League. Altidore is their man up top though. IF he's fit, he'll play in that game somewhere here in Canada - it would be kinda interesting to see it here in Toronto but I suspect that fixture pressure on the pitch might preclude a match.
    I'm betting on Edmonton at Commonwealth Stadium - it's as about as far as you can get from the US border next to the least populated US states, and Cascadia fans would have to thread the transcanada through the Rockies. It's about as much of a home advantage as we can get, so long as the people of Edmonton don't try to make the visitors "feel at home" like they did for Jamaica a couple of decades ago...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I am not a game player but there are certain things in life that don’t lend themselves to crowdsourcing. Player ratings in sports would be high on that list.

    As a for instance: England are always among the “likeliest” teams to win any World Cup they are in, regardless of form. It's a factor of the sheer number of English punters in the world betting/casino ecosystem.

    Market ranking in terms of FIFA sales has to be a strong co-efficient in those FIFA ratings. I would bet my hat on that.
    Crowdsourcing remote contractors is one data set of a multi-varied analysis they use.

    I don’t play the game either, but I would look up a player rating to get a general idea if he’s decent. If he’s a 64 rating, and old... probably he’s pretty bad. If he’s a 75 and 28 years old, he’s probably MLS quality. If he’s an 84 rating and 25 years old, he’s probably pretty damn good.

    Again just want to be clear, you wouldn’t use it for any thing other then that and you wouldn’t want to form strong opinions on players or league quality from their rankings. Just want to be clear on that. But if you want to guesstimate a players worth in about 15 seconds you can google x player - fifa 19 and just get a very quick idea

 

 

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