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  1. #2281
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie View Post
    i think we have reached the peak for ticket sales with seba,its all about winning.losing team 20k..winning team 27k to sellouts
    I agree with this. It's all about winning no matter who is on the pitch. But you have to have somebody out there good enough to actually win and I will feel a lot better when we get some players who might be able to do that.

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    I don't know - I often specifically have heard the phrase "He is worth the price of admission" from casuals and that's always Seba.

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    Anyone who drops the team 1 full season removed from being the best MLS team of all time when it's still in the top spenders in the league (maybe still top in terms of wage spend!?) with a very strong squad compared to the rest of the league isn't worth worrying about - the team can't dominate every year so fans like that were going to drop off at some stage and there's no stopping it. I wouldn't make a bad deal on Seba to appease those 'supporters'

    Besides which he will be replaced, it's not like they just get rid blindly and proceed as is

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    Anyone who drops the team 1 full season removed from being the best MLS team of all time when it's still in the top spenders in the league (maybe still top in terms of wage spend!?) with a very strong squad compared to the rest of the league isn't worth worrying about - the team can't dominate every year so fans like that were going to drop off at some stage and there's no stopping it.
    This is obtuse, like there were no injury-related circumstances. Sure the casuals won't be acutely aware but the storyline was known even amongst them. And Seba not only continued to create goals, he did it with flourish that was entertaining.

    I'm amazed at how many people are writing off Seba as not worth it because we gave up 64 league goals last year instead of 37 the year before. SMH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    It will only have an effect if no one new is brought in and we struggle. If we get a few players and do well then it'll all be forgotten. Winning does that in this city. For example the swath of folks dropping the Raptors because they traded DeRozan. How's that going now?
    If I am a 23-26 year old player of Giovinco’s caliber, why would I consider a move to Toronto FC? We forget that MLS is a second or third tier league, and likely a deadend if I have higher aspirations (national team). This leaves the money as the principal factor (ok, Ciman is an exception).

    If Seba departs, finding a like replacement, in his prime, will be very difficult. MLSE would have to shell out a lot more than what they are paying Giovinco, and there are no guarantees that he will ever do, what Seba has accomplished here.....

    and the age issue is ridiculous...again, they are on a different planet, but Ronaldo is older than him, and signed an historic contract.......fans come out to watch star players, players like Giovinco, who, in a creative attacking Higuain role, could excel for years.

    Except for the diehard supporters, a lot of soccer fans will not buy into a team that only features players like Morrow, Delgado, Osorio and an injury ridden Altidore....

  6. #2286
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    If I am a 23-26 year old player of Giovinco’s caliber, why would I consider a move to Toronto FC? We forget that MLS is a second or third tier league, and likely a deadend if I have higher aspirations (national team). This leaves the money as the principal factor (ok, Ciman is an exception).
    It's fairly established that South American talent is available for non-exorbitant DP money and that young players are looking to MLS as a stepping stone to Europe. For a lot of them it is not a dead end to their national teams (so far) either depending on what country they are from obviously. As for the caliber, you have to see. No one knew Giovinco would be what he was when we signed him either and if TFC is willing to shell out for legit transfer fees then the quality level raises significantly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    It's fairly established that South American talent is available for non-exorbitant DP money and that young players are looking to MLS as a stepping stone to Europe. For a lot of them it is not a dead end to their national teams (so far) either depending on what country they are from obviously. As for the caliber, you have to see. No one knew Giovinco would be what he was when we signed him either and if TFC is willing to shell out for legit transfer fees then the quality level raises significantly.
    After Seba’s signing, I am bewildered that MLS has virtually ignored talented Italian, German, Croatian players etc...the South American experiment has not always succeeded....and you are correct, in their prime, they tend to put MLS behind them...there are so many players in Serie B who are young and hungry...and very talented

  8. #2288
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoesphNdo View Post
    Anyone who drops the team 1 full season removed from being the best MLS team of all time when it's still in the top spenders in the league (maybe still top in terms of wage spend!?) with a very strong squad compared to the rest of the league isn't worth worrying about - the team can't dominate every year so fans like that were going to drop off at some stage and there's no stopping it. I wouldn't make a bad deal on Seba to appease those 'supporters'

    Besides which he will be replaced, it's not like they just get rid blindly and proceed as is
    we have seen no evidence of planning for a Seba departure, let alone a pre season departure, let alone bringing in two or three talented players (there wont be another Seba, lets be realstic).

    I still want plan A. Seba appears to still have it and I'd hope they can bridge the gap.
    Last edited by MightyDM; 01-29-2019 at 04:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    If I am a 23-26 year old player of Giovinco’s caliber, why would I consider a move to Toronto FC? We forget that MLS is a second or third tier league, and likely a deadend if I have higher aspirations (national team). This leaves the money as the principal factor (ok, Ciman is an exception).

    If Seba departs, finding a like replacement, in his prime, will be very difficult. MLSE would have to shell out a lot more than what they are paying Giovinco, and there are no guarantees that he will ever do, what Seba has accomplished here.....

    and the age issue is ridiculous...again, they are on a different planet, but Ronaldo is older than him, and signed an historic contract.......fans come out to watch star players, players like Giovinco, who, in a creative attacking Higuain role, could excel for years.

    Except for the diehard supporters, a lot of soccer fans will not buy into a team that only features players like Morrow, Delgado, Osorio and an injury ridden Altidore....
    This is what I see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    If I am a 23-26 year old player of Giovinco’s caliber, why would I consider a move to Toronto FC? We forget that MLS is a second or third tier league, and likely a deadend if I have higher aspirations (national team). This leaves the money as the principal factor (ok, Ciman is an exception).

    If Seba departs, finding a like replacement, in his prime, will be very difficult. MLSE would have to shell out a lot more than what they are paying Giovinco, and there are no guarantees that he will ever do, what Seba has accomplished here.....

    and the age issue is ridiculous...again, they are on a different planet, but Ronaldo is older than him, and signed an historic contract.......fans come out to watch star players, players like Giovinco, who, in a creative attacking Higuain role, could excel for years.

    Except for the diehard supporters, a lot of soccer fans will not buy into a team that only features players like Morrow, Delgado, Osorio and an injury ridden Altidore....
    Very Difficult?

    Almiron and both Martinez’ at Atlanta are in their prime and all 3 were found by United in the last 2 years. Pity is the reigning South American Player of the Year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza_55 View Post
    Very Difficult?

    Almiron and both Martinez’ at Atlanta are in their prime and all 3 were found by United in the last 2 years. Pity is the reigning South American Player of the Year.
    Yes. And lots of failures too, across the league. Its not like football manager, someone working out is not a sure thing at all. we have as close to a sure thing as you can get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post

    If Seba departs, finding a like replacement, in his prime, will be very difficult. MLSE would have to shell out a lot more than what they are paying Giovinco, and there are no guarantees that he will ever do, what Seba has accomplished here.....
    I suppose you can think what you like but I can't help but point out Nacho Piatti was on 700K or so up until last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    Yes. And lots of failures too, across the league. Its not like football manager, someone working out is not a sure thing at all. we have as close to a sure thing as you can get.
    Because the failures were guys available on free transfers, were out of contract, or we offered a loans with a buy clause because those players couldn't crack their squads.

    It's different when you start tossing around legit transfer fees.

    Also for the Italy, Croatia, etc. mention. There are players there who would be great but because it's Europe they really look at MLS as a third tier league and figure why go there as a stepping stone to Europe when you are already in Europe? You lose that carrot. Also a good chunk of those players and agents overvalue their worth and you end up paying $500K for Zavaleta level trash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djking2 View Post
    I suppose you can think what you like but I can't help but point out Nacho Piatti was on 700K or so up until last year.
    How'd Montreal do in 2017?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Also for the Italy, Croatia, etc. mention. There are players there who would be great but because it's Europe they really look at MLS as a third tier league and figure why go there as a stepping stone to Europe when you are already in Europe? You lose that carrot. Also a good chunk of those players and agents overvalue their worth and you end up paying $500K for Zavaleta level trash.
    or their wage expectations were in excess of the player salary max until MLS came up with the TAM plan that allows teams to get more creative and competitive in building their rosters. Take a look at the winter signings in MLS this year

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    How'd Montreal do in 2017?
    Montreal did shit is shit and for fuck sake always will be shit.

    Piatti has a direct line to the Pope and by extension therefore GOD and it shows in his play

    or in your words

    How did TFC do in 2018?

    Bazing.....
    Last edited by djking2; 01-29-2019 at 02:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    How'd Montreal do in 2017?
    Atlanta did alright the past couple years and their 3 DPs combined made less than Altidore.

    Not taking away from our DPs but you can get players who are good to come to MLS and not overpay by millions & millions.

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    Does anyone know what / if there is a cap on the bonus structure in the CBA ?

    Why not offer Seba the opportunity to get 7M again if he hits the targets?

    I've said this before earlier.

    What are you willing to pay Seba if he bags 25 goals and 10 assists? 20 and 15? 15 and 15?
    I'm sure Curtis & Manning can structure something that entices him to take a second look.

    I for one am comfortable offering him 7 M again if he can hit his bonus targets.

    4-5mil base salary and see where he can go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Can anyone elaborate on bonus structure? Here's my offer.

    3 years 5.5 m per
    500k bonus at 17 goals
    1 million bonus at 23 goals
    250k bonus at 15 assists
    250k bonus at 2500 minutes played

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Atlanta did alright the past couple years and their 3 DPs combined made less than Altidore.
    Both Altidore and Giovinco came on free transfers. J Martinez came on $5m and Almiron came on $9m. (Atlanta has also just splashed $17m on Pity Martinez and $15M on Barco)

    If Seba returns a transfer fee to Toronto, you have to mark down his salary to reflect that change in value from $0 transfer fee.

    If TFC start to play the transfer fee game, I'm all for it. Seba is the one who can test the system for them ... Aside from Bradley, it's not like our brain trust has much experience in searching for transfer-fee-required talent, or developing and selling that talent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Does anyone know what / if there is a cap on the bonus structure in the CBA ?

    Why not offer Seba the opportunity to get 7M again if he hits the targets?

    I've said this before earlier.

    What are you willing to pay Seba if he bags 25 goals and 10 assists? 20 and 15? 15 and 15?
    I'm sure Curtis & Manning can structure something that entices him to take a second look.

    I for one am comfortable offering him 7 M again if he can hit his bonus targets.

    4-5mil base salary and see where he can go.
    Since MLS rules are stupid and frequently changing, I would say this is something they don't allow. It makes too much sense for them to have it as a rule.

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    But through all this, I still expect he will sign here. I think it's all gamesmanship from him and his agent to get the most from TFC. I think TFC will cave in a bit but they won't do $21M for 3 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Since MLS rules are stupid and frequently changing, I would say this is something they don't allow. It makes too much sense for them to have it as a rule.
    All the initial reports when he joined us said he had upwards of $3M in performance bonuses? Also, as to whether minutes played is a bonus category, wasn't there some sort of fuss about Brek Shea in Vancouver this year over triggering such a clause?

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    All the initial reports when he joined us said he had upwards of $3M in performance bonuses? Also, as to whether minutes played is a bonus category, wasn't there some sort of fuss about Brek Shea in Vancouver this year over triggering such a clause?
    Matches played/minutes I know they do but for him I think it just triggered an option year at the same rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    we have seen no evidence of planning for a Seba departure, let alone a pre season departure, let alone bringing in two or three talented players (there wont be another Seba, lets be realstic).

    I still want plan A. Seba still appears to still have it and I'd hope they can bridge the gap.
    We have seen no plan of anything because we don't work for TFC or are in any position to do so. New GM and New Pres, haven't had a chance to move on from Lieweke and Bez til now. I'm gonna give them a chance to prove themselves before I start freaking out
    Last edited by Ossington Mental Youth; 01-29-2019 at 03:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul-collins View Post
    Both Altidore and Giovinco came on free transfers. J Martinez came on $5m and Almiron came on $9m. (Atlanta has also just splashed $17m on Pity Martinez and $15M on Barco)

    If Seba returns a transfer fee to Toronto, you have to mark down his salary to reflect that change in value from $0 transfer fee.

    If TFC start to play the transfer fee game, I'm all for it. Seba is the one who can test the system for them ... Aside from Bradley, it's not like our brain trust has much experience in searching for transfer-fee-required talent, or developing and selling that talent.
    Technically Altidore came on a free.... but if that was a straight swap for Defoe a transfer fee is implied because in no way was Defoe’s market value equal to Altidore’s at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I agree with this. It's all about winning no matter who is on the pitch. But you have to have somebody out there good enough to actually win and I will feel a lot better when we get some players who might be able to do that.
    Agreed here.
    The opportunity will arise to get said players, then we can freak out if and when Manning/Curtis/Vanney don't do their jobs

  27. #2307
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    Not sure if the bonus system for performance targets and/or minutes played is allowed. I imagine there's quite a bit of flexibility for DP contracts specifically.

    However seems like that's a recipe for future headaches. Especially for a player that will be 32 to 35 during the contract; and for a team that doesn't have much quality depth (at least so far).

    Consider that after last season's injury disasters, TFC is planning to rotate players much more heavily, to avoid overuse and injury. Consider that the medical geeks might say: Seba needs a break to avoid problems. Seba says: you won't let me get my bonuses for performance or minutes played because of your sports science BS.

    And/or Seba plays very well; gets a bunch of goals & assists; carries the team on his back; then gets a serious injury. Maybe on some god-awful plastic turf; or on some Central American cow pasture in the CCL; or at -20 in KC or TO or some other god-forsaken place in February. You really want to pull his performance bonus as a result?
    Last edited by Auzzy; 01-29-2019 at 05:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Consider that after last season's injury disasters, TFC is planning to rotate players much more heavily, to avoid overuse and injury. Consider that the medical geeks might say: Seba needs a break to avoid problems. Seba says: you won't let me get my bonuses for performance or minutes played because of your sports science BS.
    I could see this happening. If he was rested or even subbed out down the stretch with an incentive clause in reach he would totally freak out.

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    Who really knows the bonus system is for the MLS?? When you look at the published salaries, you see the players base salary plus their total compensation. For most players, their base salary and total compensation are pretty close. And then there is Piatti... his base salary is $500,000 but his total compensations is $4,700,000.

    https://mlsplayers.org/resources/salary-guide

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Atlanta did alright the past couple years and their 3 DPs combined made less than Altidore.

    Not taking away from our DPs but you can get players who are good to come to MLS and not overpay by millions & millions.
    Yes, you can. But that certainly does not mean that we, or any other team, will. Including Atlanta

 

 

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