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  1. #91
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    I wouldnt mind picking up Waston. Waston - Mavinga CB pairing could be one of the best in the league. Would be interesting to see if Vancouver would trade to another Canadian team, but if the price is right, it’s worth a go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Would Waston be worth picking up? (ps the Whitecaps seem quite a mess)

    https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/mls...ston-1.4884976
    Last edited by Tunnelred; 10-31-2018 at 08:50 AM.
    Away trips: 2014 - Seattle. 2015 - Montreal. 2016 - Montreal x2. Playoffs - NYCFC, Montreal. 2017 - Salt Lake, Philly, Ottawa, Montreal, Chicago, LA, Atlanta. ​Playoffs - NYRB, Columbus. 2018 ​- Monterrey, MX (Tigres) CCL, Montreal, Ottawa, Montreal. 2019 - ​Philly, Montreal, Seattle (MLS Cup final)

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    We made a decision like this by moving Beitashour for vdW and it became a major issue in terms of cap space.

    I would seriously think about one more year of Moor/Hagglund at a combined cost of $400K than spend $700-800K (or more) on Watson and his backup, if Moor has a good bill of health.

    We need to be careful here. These are all bets. Almost every one of them in 2016-2017 era paid off (eg Vazquez for Will Johnson, Ricketts for Herc Gomez), but then almost every one of them in 2018 didn’t. But that doesn't make them necessarily dumb bets. A smart person could put the same bet on in 2019.

    You have an information advantage with Moor/Hagglund. You know what these guys can give you. You have a long history with the medical staff (so, hopefully, we get the best possible read on Moor)

    I am not saying that we should keep Moor/Hagglund. I am arguing for recognizing the reasonable possibility that doing so is a reasonable bet.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    We made a decision like this by moving Beitashour for vdW and it became a major issue in terms of cap space.
    Agree with the rest of your post, but I thought the reason we moved Beitashour was because we had a cap issue. If I recall (and understand) correctly, we couldn't afford to offer him the raise he was looking for and stay under the cap, because he was an existing player. Because vdW was new to the league, we were able to use funny money to supplement his salary. So even though his cost us more, he counts less to the cap. If my understanding is wrong, then I really don't understand that decision...

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    JonO, that was my recollection as well.

  5. #95
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    ^Beita claimed he was asked to take a pay cut, which offended him.

    No matter what, that decision cost us big time in terms of opportunity cost, because we could have signed Beita at a slight raise and used the TAM elsewhere mid season. We shot our bolt on a risky play there.

    But at the time, others were bringing in serious names (Barco, Kaku) and it rhymed with Vazquez for Will Johnson...
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Some blurbs about continuing to extend Aketxe’s loan deal. Let’s all hope we get free of that deal. What a miss that signing was.

  7. #97
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    Isn't he on a year long loan already?

  8. #98
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    Waston for Osorio, would benefit both teams.

  9. #99
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    Punt Zavaletta...sign Waston. If we are sure that Mavinga and Moor will be fit enough to play most of the season then that should be enough. Trading Jonathan for him would be criminal.

    Surely there would be a CB coming through the development process?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton_Red View Post
    Punt Zavaletta...sign Waston. If we are sure that Mavinga and Moor will be fit enough to play most of the season then that should be enough. Trading Jonathan for him would be criminal.

    Surely there would be a CB coming through the development process?
    Waston for Osorio not that crazy. Two very good players. Vancouver won’t expect less for their star defender, and, after losing their best midfielder, would want Osorio. Who else do we have as a trade asset? Delgado? They are going to want a good starting player......besides, always trade a guy a year early, not a year late...Osorio may never have another 2018 season, and TFC desperately needs a player like Waston.
    Besides. We saw the best of Osorio this year, and it was impressive. And, it made no difference in the end.
    Last edited by 69Chevy396; 10-31-2018 at 06:57 PM.

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    CB is the obvious void management has talked about

    But I didn't hear them talk about CAM. Can we survive another year with Victor Vazquez missing so many games?

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    Burn it down! Start fresh... park a bus outside and drive them all home!
    http://www.onesecondleft.com/ Please visit the one second left blog that I contribute to.

    My MLS now includes Montreal... we needed someone to hate.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    Waston for Osorio, would benefit both teams.
    Possibly the dumbest post of the past few offseasons. Trade a guy on ascendency for a guy on the decline for as much money as you'd pay to get a guy from abroad that's younger. And without losing the only TFC player who had an improved 2018. That is 2011 logic. Bring back Mariner!

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Possibly the dumbest post of the past few offseasons. Trade a guy on ascendency for a guy on the decline for as much money as you'd pay to get a guy from abroad that's younger. And without losing the only TFC player who had an improved 2018. That is 2011 logic. Bring back Mariner!
    Okay, notwithstanding he generally has an axe to grind with certain players, I do worry we overpaid for a contract-year-performance.

    Let’s hope it’s onward and upward from here. It’s not like management has shown to be overly sentimental when resigning guys. He’ll have to continue to put in the work.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 10-31-2018 at 08:34 PM.

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    This trade significantly undervalues Osorio in the current market. He actually counts as a US domestic under the MLS rules that came into play a couple of years ago. FWIW, he was the top scorer in the CCL.

    A lot of teams would take Waston. A lot more would take Osorio.


    As for a CB coming through - nobody at the USL level so at least 2 years until somebody might be ready.


    BTW, Waston isn't all that good a passer so he doesn't fit our style.
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 10-31-2018 at 10:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Okay, notwithstanding he generally has an axe to grind with certain players, I do worry we overpaid for a contract-year-performance.

    Let’s hope it’s onward and upward from here. It’s not like management has shown to be overly sentimental when resigning guys. He’ll have to continue to put in the work.
    He's young enough that if he has a down year we can probably get out from under his contract by selling him to Mexico. Probably not for as much as we'd have gotten had we done it midway last season, but there's an out there I bet. Anyways, love Osorio and even if his goal scoring dips I think he can play up to his contract by being a guy you can count on every day.

  17. #107
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    This is bizarre. Offensive talent is more valuable than defenders. There is a massive falloff in value at age 30. Waston is the epitome of a rental.

    The guy scored a goal in a World Cup game. That is very nice for him, but it doesn’t make him a special player
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    What TFC is a younger version of Drew Moor with better passing. A CB who can organize the defence and can pass out of the back. Very few of those in MLS. Not many CBs who can pass out of the back in this league.

    Mavinga has the physical tools, but I don't think he's a good organizer. Van der Wiel has been a FB most of his career, and considering how many times he's played CB for TFC this year, he's not a good organizer either.

    Even a CB who can half decently pass the ball out of the back would push Bradley a little further up the midfield and not have him play sweeper role.

    Waston isn't the CB TFC needs.

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    Hell is always loose here. It can't break loose again
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    I’m telling you guys, Walker Zimmerman is that CB (depending on contract expectations). He’s been unable to reach a deal with LAFC and could be an absolute rock in the middle for years to come. It sounds like if this doesn’t work out he’s off to Europe.

    Forget Waston, a guy who has discipline issues, can’t pass all that well, may well be a head case, and is 5 years older.

  20. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I’m telling you guys, Walker Zimmerman is that CB (depending on contract expectations). He’s been unable to reach a deal with LAFC and could be an absolute rock in the middle for years to come. It sounds like if this doesn’t work out he’s off to Europe.

    Forget Waston, a guy who has discipline issues, can’t pass all that well, may well be a head case, and is 5 years older.
    This times a million

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    I agree with the above that don't rate getting an older guy with disciple issues (Watson et al) for a fullback, especially if it means giving up prime younger talent in the process. That's the TFC mentality that we had from 2008-2012, and look where that got us. Also, older guys get injured more often, and D has been a rough place to be for us.

    For those that still advocate for blowing everything up, I ran the number based on todays released MLSPA salaries for the team. The difference between 2017 and 2018 was that injuries and the whiff of a signing of Aketxe cost us a full 25% of both our salary cap and team base salary. That is, 25% of our cap tied money went to guys that could not play due to injury. Unpossible to put together a winning team with that kind of handicap, in my opinion.

  22. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I’m telling you guys, Walker Zimmerman is that CB (depending on contract expectations). He’s been unable to reach a deal with LAFC and could be an absolute rock in the middle for years to come. It sounds like if this doesn’t work out he’s off to Europe.

    Forget Waston, a guy who has discipline issues, can’t pass all that well, may well be a head case, and is 5 years older.
    Is Zimmerman a free agent, or do we have to trade something to LAFC?
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Is Zimmerman a free agent, or do we have to trade something to LAFC?
    Not sure exactly, but apparently his contract is up this year. He currently makes $235k and is looking for more than $530k (which would make him a DP or require TAM). The article I got this from is a bit old, so I don't know if anything has developed since

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/...eighing-europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    Possibly the dumbest post of the past few offseasons. Trade a guy on ascendency for a guy on the decline for as much money as you'd pay to get a guy from abroad that's younger. And without losing the only TFC player who had an improved 2018. That is 2011 logic. Bring back Mariner!
    Emotions do not play a role in business, particularly sports entertainment. Nowhere in my post did I write anything negative about Osorio. We watched him sputter, get benched, and improve very little, for years. In 2018, he had his opportunity, because players brought in to replace him in, were either hurt, or a disaster, which gave him his shot, and, he took it. How good a player he is, or can be, has a lot to do with who he is playing with. Surrounded by the likes of Seba, Vaz and Altidore, he stepped in nicely, making up for the disappearance of Delgado and Morrow. If you think, he will have another 2018, you are inferring that all those prior seasons were an anomaly, just part of his maturation. That may be true. I am more interested in knowing where he went in the final months, after signing his contract, because his production, while acceptable, certainly wasnt stellar.

    TFC needs to correct the mistakes they made when shipping Beitishour and keeping Zavaleta and Morgan. If this guy Waston is as good a player as Mavinga, I would easily give up any of our non DP midfielders for him.

    And, furthermore, you have persistently insulted me over the years. It is time for you to stop.

  25. #115
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    You say he’s come good surrounded by Seba, VV and Jozy this season, but we played most the season without VV and Jozy was out for extended periods of time. If anything, he’s come good because he’s had to step in to the gap left by VV.

    While i I do think his goal scoring this year is an exception, everything else he brings will more than likely still be about come next season. He’s not worth trading.

    Also so his new deal kicks in next year. There won’t be many teams who will want to pick that up I’d assume.
    Away trips: 2014 - Seattle. 2015 - Montreal. 2016 - Montreal x2. Playoffs - NYCFC, Montreal. 2017 - Salt Lake, Philly, Ottawa, Montreal, Chicago, LA, Atlanta. ​Playoffs - NYRB, Columbus. 2018 ​- Monterrey, MX (Tigres) CCL, Montreal, Ottawa, Montreal. 2019 - ​Philly, Montreal, Seattle (MLS Cup final)

  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I’m telling you guys, Walker Zimmerman is that CB (depending on contract expectations). He’s been unable to reach a deal with LAFC and could be an absolute rock in the middle for years to come. It sounds like if this doesn’t work out he’s off to Europe.
    Good call - was suggesting him 4 years ago when our best CB was Caldwell. Not sure we can afford him but he's what we need.

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    I don’t think Osorio is untouchable, I don’t think anyone is.

    Oso for Zimmerman is the more realistic conversation. Not sure we or LAFC would do that, but Zimmerman is 25 and a domestic. Also the better player.

    I’d prefer we keep Oso, but I accept Chevy’s point that emotion is clouding our judgment on Oso, at least a bit. Guilty!
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Good call - was suggesting him 4 years ago when our best CB was Caldwell. Not sure we can afford him but he's what we need.
    That may well be the problem. Perhaps the play is to find the next great American CB, as oppposed to the one everybody already recognizes the value of.

    Won’t be cheap. But for a guy who could be your future captain, is domestic, and has a long runway in his career there is a lot to like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    Emotions do not play a role in business, particularly sports entertainment.
    I don't agree with this statement; I think there are some contexts in which the two paths shouldn't cross (probably most), but I also feel like, in others, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

    It shouldn't be your main guide, but I'm not sure it's completely wise to remove 100% of emotion from decisions to be made, when you have things like team chemistry to account for.

    There's also something to be said for Oso carrying the flag as the sole Canadian to have EARNED a place in our starting eleven; I don't feel like we should look to be an all-Canadian side, but I do appreciate having some Canadian content, where they are deserving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    I don't agree with this statement; I think there are some contexts in which the two paths shouldn't cross (probably most), but I also feel like, in others, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

    It shouldn't be your main guide, but I'm not sure it's completely wise to remove 100% of emotion from decisions to be made, when you have things like team chemistry to account for.

    There's also something to be said for Oso carrying the flag as the sole Canadian to have EARNED a place in our starting eleven; I don't feel like we should look to be an all-Canadian side, but I do appreciate having some Canadian content, where they are deserving.
    I suspect, mlse will do whatever they can, to keep Osorio, for the reasons that you give. However, if the team believes it has another shot at contention, before losing our current designated players, than they will do what is needed to bolster our weaknesses, at least in the short turn. If, they go the trade route, I cannot think of any player more attractive than Osorio. If Waston isn’t available, perhaps another, highly rated defender. What are the options? What would Delgado, or Chapman, or Auro fetch? We don’t want to give up on Moor or Morrow, do we? The team can pick up another offensive piece, or two, and hopefully, get lucky like Atlanta did. Finding a star defender is much harder, and would require a bit of a sacrifice.
    Otherwise, keep Osorio, keep Seba and Mavinga, start rebuilding, bust up the team abd work on a five year plan (that may be the preferred route).

 

 

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