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  1. #871
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    Long term everything is uncertain. The way we are posturing 2019, pretty much everything is on a one year lease. What happens after that is anyone’s guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    LAFC were sad to see him go. Montreal fans who are honest are sad he left - (gawd there's a lot of posturing on twitter by Impact fans). Ciman's a 2 year +1 player project, much like Moor was when he came. We have good reason to believe he will be an MLS quality CB next year.

    Two other aspects of all this:

    1) Wheeler indicating "somebody will have to go" - he's not always right about who and what fits but Wheeler usually knows something when talking about cap space - still think this is Haglund

    2) Our long term defensive future is really uncertain. We have pretty much bet 2020 & 2021 on an aging Morrow/Morgan, Ciman & Mavinga and , maybe,VDW & Auro. 2022 & 2023 are complete unknowns. This may seem like a long way away but 2022 is to 2019 what Seba's first season was to 2018. This team needs to start identifying decent young (under 20) CB & FB talents. We can't keep buying our defence.
    With Ciman, Moor has competition and/ or rotation. With Mavinga and Ciman/Moor, Hagglund and Zavaleta can both be competent because their weaknesses are prot3cted.

    I am cu4ious to see where VDW plays. Never really understood that acquisition.

    Also, re forwards, Bakero does nothing for me. H@milton does, but Vanney doesn’t seem to be @ble to get him to the next level. Glimpses....

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    I think the Toronto Star article detailed that they're going to get younger only after 2019. Coincides with Giovinco, Bradley, Jozy contracts. It's a win now mentality this season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    I think the Toronto Star article detailed that they're going to get younger only after 2019. Coincides with Giovinco, Bradley, Jozy contracts. It's a win now mentality this season.
    To preview an endless discussion we will be having in 2019 - I think (fear) MLSE say younger but mean cheaper. TFC will have probably spent cumulatively $50M more than Seattle or NYRB during 2015-19. Not sure Leiweke's value creation story has materialized.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I have zero expectations that Ciman will work out, however I will remain cautiously optimistic.
    He was in consideration for Belgium WC squad 6 months ago. Why would he not work out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    To preview an endless discussion we will be having in 2019 - I think (fear) MLSE say younger but mean cheaper. TFC will have probably spent cumulatively $50M more than Seattle or NYRB during 2015-19. Not sure Leiweke's value creation story has materialized.
    Seattle and NYRB do not concern me. They aren't as ambitious as us to warrant comparison.

    Atlanta United, on the other hand, are. If they shake up the strategy it's going to be in the direction that Atlanta is trying to go. Maybe a hybrid, where we have a long-term guy like Seba surrounded by appreciating high level assets.

    Honestly who knows, but change is coming and I doubt we have all 3 DPs in 2020.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I have zero expectations that Ciman will work out, however I will remain cautiously optimistic.
    Seems no one is mentioning in his last week in Dijon he was listed as out for indeterminate time with a knee injury . Older athelete with bad knee , And then we’ll get the surprise we’re overpaying . Hopefully not . And then who gets the most yellows him or Zav . Seems like a mediocre season at best . He is only valuable as a irregular starter or backing Moor .
    ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana

  8. #878
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    To preview an endless discussion we will be having in 2019 - I think (fear) MLSE say younger but mean cheaper. TFC will have probably spent cumulatively $50M more than Seattle or NYRB during 2015-19. Not sure Leiweke's value creation story has materialized.
    Yes. You are right. Although current MLSE is not Belgians taking over the World Series champion jays and completely dissaembling that team just to lower costs or even Rogers with current Blue Jays trying to win on the cheap - they have shown a propensity to invest in their sports assets. And all the players contracts together are equal to about two hockey players. So at the moment I think we are in with a chance of continued investment. But you are right Ensco, they will be looking closely at the numbers. Tough to subtract great players and sell tickets though.
    Last edited by MightyDM; 12-28-2018 at 07:31 AM.

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    I am glad we are going for in 2019. Being a Raps fan teaches you that you need to take it year by year.

    We definitely need to understand/address why we are not developing young players yet. It will sink us soon if left unaddressed.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I am glad we are going for in 2019. Being a Raps fan teaches you that you need to take it year by year.

    We definitely need to understand/address why we are not developing young players yet. It will sink us soon if left unaddressed.
    It's simple bad coaching and soccer philosophy. It's a crime to think about how much MSLE have invested in youth development and have only produced a less than a handful of decent players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Stick View Post
    It's simple bad coaching and soccer philosophy. It's a crime to think about how much MSLE have invested in youth development and have only produced a less than a handful of decent players.
    Why do you say bad coaching and soccer philosophy? What is it you are seeing ? I can not judge Danny dichios soccer coaching ability from where I sit although I would assume he knows what he is doing. The only thing I see is turnover in the youth development ranks - almost like the first team Was before. And Hamilton’s lack of improvement is down to the first team coaches or Hamilton - he has shown a knack for putting balls into the net; frustrating that he cannot so it every day.

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    Academy efforts are long term. Decent academy soccer development has you starting with kids who are under 10. The academy was a joke until Vanney was hired to run it in 2014 - even then it would take a couple of seasons to create a decent environment. So, realistically, we shouldn't expect anybody over 14 to be any good - if we get one, its a bonus.


    Manning knows the power of an academy better then anybody in the league - that was what powered RSL in his day. I'm sure the long term play is kids + stars. You don't fill a 31K arena without a league class striker.

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    I think something certainly is not right at the academy level to say the least. It’s pretty unanimous we have one of the best facilities in major league soccer and we run a second youth setup out of London. Good money is being invested by the club, where are the returns? It’s a shame because the organization deserves the credit for doing the right thing.

    The best “academy players” we have “produced” have typically spent a majority of their youth careers in other places (Edwards, Osorio, Kaye). The guys who have spent the most time in our youth system that did make it (Henry, Hamilton, Morgan) have serious limitations or unfulfilled potential. Recent crop of players are an unfinished story but if Canada’s performance at the recent U20 qualifiers is any indication, don’t hold your breath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I think something certainly is not right at the academy level to say the least. It’s pretty unanimous we have one of the best facilities in major league soccer and we run a second youth setup out of London. Good money is being invested by the club, where are the returns? It’s a shame because the organization deserves the credit for doing the right thing.

    The best “academy players” we have “produced” have typically spent a majority of their youth careers in other places (Edwards, Osorio, Kaye). The guys who have spent the most time in our youth system that did make it (Henry, Hamilton, Morgan) have serious limitations or unfulfilled potential. Recent crop of players are an unfinished story but if Canada’s performance at the recent U20 qualifiers is any indication, don’t hold your breath.
    I don’t disagree, but the comments earlier were quite precise, so I was curious if the person posting had some inside knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Academy efforts are long term. Decent academy soccer development has you starting with kids who are under 10. The academy was a joke until Vanney was hired to run it in 2014 - even then it would take a couple of seasons to create a decent environment. So, realistically, we shouldn't expect anybody over 14 to be any good - if we get one, its a bonus.


    Manning knows the power of an academy better then anybody in the league - that was what powered RSL in his day. I'm sure the long term play is kids + stars. You don't fill a 31K arena without a league class striker.
    If you look at a lot of the youth setups out there it’s not about identifying the best player a decade before they go pro. These places cut and bring on players every year along the way. You might get a diamond from a very early age but it’s more likely you identify someone later (14-18) because progression for youth players is not linear.

    My concern, in light of my last post decrying the lack of true academy players we’ve produced, is we seem to struggle to identify, properly train (or retain) enough players under the age of 18 that are good enough to go pro. But this isn’t a matter of searching playgrounds for 10 yr olds and polishing them up for a decade. We should be finding guys at all stages between 14-18 to bring through and see results along the way. It should not take a decade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyDM View Post
    I don’t disagree, but the comments earlier were quite precise, so I was curious if the person posting had some inside knowledge.
    No argument here. I’d be interested to hear from people with more hands-on experience what the problems are.

  17. #887
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    If you look at a lot of the youth setups out there it’s not about identifying the best player a decade before they go pro. These places cut and bring on players every year along the way. You might get a diamond from a very early age but it’s more likely you identify someone later (14-18) because progression for youth players is not linear.

    My concern, in light of my last post decrying the lack of true academy players we’ve produced, is we seem to struggle to identify, properly train (or retain) enough players under the age of 18 that are good enough to go pro. But this isn’t a matter of searching playgrounds for 10 yr olds and polishing them up for a decade. We should be finding guys at all stages between 14-18 to bring through and see results along the way. It should not take a decade.
    My son was playing competitive for a number of years and he is currently 14. I think he had very good potential and was playing a year up on a CSL team when he left just a couple months ago. I still really believe the main issue is financial as it was with us given our family situation. I am not necessarily saying I think my son would have gone pro for sure or anything but in my time in the competitive system I have seen lots of excellent players leave because they couldn't afford it any longer like us. It also comes down to the scouting of this age group. Our club director told us TFC academy won't come out to the east end to scout kids when our former club have told them they have a prospect. Not sure how true that is but that is what he told me and if it is true that is an issue. The TFC academy covers the costs for the kids to cover the financial part but their pool of players is not big enough to catch those diamonds. I am assuming leagues like EPL have almost all teams with academies that pay for lots of kids with potential to play. You can catch more with a bigger net. TFC's academy sample size is too small I think to ever produce more than the odd prospect and the other clubs/academies in Toronto will have the best of who can afford it only. If that doesn't change I think we will be relying on getting our talent elsewhere for years to come. Kids like my son who was doing very well will still continue to leave because there is no support to bring them up to a higher level. Hope we can truly rely on our academy one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    If you look at a lot of the youth setups out there it’s not about identifying the best player a decade before they go pro. These places cut and bring on players every year along the way. You might get a diamond from a very early age but it’s more likely you identify someone later (14-18) because progression for youth players is not linear.

    My concern, in light of my last post decrying the lack of true academy players we’ve produced, is we seem to struggle to identify, properly train (or retain) enough players under the age of 18 that are good enough to go pro. But this isn’t a matter of searching playgrounds for 10 yr olds and polishing them up for a decade. We should be finding guys at all stages between 14-18 to bring through and see results along the way. It should not take a decade.
    I think that Canada's entire soccer program needs to address the issue of not developing youth soccer, you can't just count on one team's (TFC's) youth program to improve an entire country's crop of youth players. I think I read in a previous post way back that Canada's program was more babysitting at the younger ages than actually playing the game. I know it may be the wrong comparison but look at what Iceland has done to it's program, and everyone from the kids and parents up have bought into it, Maybe I am wrong?

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    Bottom of this article has one source that says Bez is the next GM of Columbus.

    https://www.dispatch.com/sports/2018....co/IPGu3IiBIS

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    Interesting. Always figured he would end up there.

    What are the odds on Vanney pulling an Arena and becoming coach and GM if Bez does go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derko View Post
    I think that Canada's entire soccer program needs to address the issue of not developing youth soccer, you can't just count on one team's (TFC's) youth program to improve an entire country's crop of youth players. I think I read in a previous post way back that Canada's program was more babysitting at the younger ages than actually playing the game. I know it may be the wrong comparison but look at what Iceland has done to it's program, and everyone from the kids and parents up have bought into it, Maybe I am wrong?
    Sooccer Canada with Jason deVos and Ontario Soccer are trying

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Interesting. Always figured he would end up there.

    What are the odds on Vanney pulling an Arena and becoming coach and GM if Bez does go?
    Hopefully its just Porter like the other rumors, if Vanney went I would be afraid Manning appoints Kreis on a 5 year deal and the rest would be history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langilleski View Post
    Hopefully its just Porter like the other rumors, if Vanney went I would be afraid Manning appoints Kreis on a 5 year deal and the rest would be history.
    I meant if Bez goes, Vanney takes full control here at TFC akin to what Arena did at the Galaxy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langilleski View Post
    Hopefully its just Porter like the other rumors, if Vanney went I would be afraid Manning appoints Kreis on a 5 year deal and the rest would be history.
    I think Kreis officially added himself to the graveyard of MLS 1.0 & 2.0 coaches past. He has shown MLS has passed him by.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langilleski View Post
    Bottom of this article has one source that says Bez is the next GM of Columbus.

    https://www.dispatch.com/sports/2018....co/IPGu3IiBIS
    I remember TFC extending Vanney's and Bez's contract last year.

    https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-...rm-extensions/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    I meant if Bez goes, Vanney takes full control here at TFC akin to what Arena did at the Galaxy.
    This is what I would expect, especially in the short term. I do wonder if some bigger changes might occur beyond next season, given the current contracts. Big turnover in the roster along with FO changes might suggest to GV his time is up as well.

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    I could see if they made Bez President & GM - but otherwise, its not a lateral move. And, even if he was President, Columbus needs a relationship maker over the next few years - a small town version of Tim L, not Tim B. Is it Tim B's skill set to build a new stadium, restart business relationships, reconnect a team with its fans?

    To me, this is somebody in Columbus saying "We are going to be relevant - see who we will go after!" A lot like that Saudi team wishlist we were reading about back in November.


    That having been said, I would be surprised if Tim B doesn't move in the next 4 years - being second fiddle to Manning isn't what he wants to be doing - he's too ambitious for that. But go be President at a team with a lot less on its plate.

    ***

    And make no mistake, TFC is Manning's team now. Bez is seriously involved in the acquisitions & long term roster guy while Vanney is the coach to put all that together. But Manning is the boss.
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 12-28-2018 at 07:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Kool View Post
    My son was playing competitive for a number of years and he is currently 14. I think he had very good potential and was playing a year up on a CSL team when he left just a couple months ago. I still really believe the main issue is financial as it was with us given our family situation. I am not necessarily saying I think my son would have gone pro for sure or anything but in my time in the competitive system I have seen lots of excellent players leave because they couldn't afford it any longer like us. It also comes down to the scouting of this age group. Our club director told us TFC academy won't come out to the east end to scout kids when our former club have told them they have a prospect. Not sure how true that is but that is what he told me and if it is true that is an issue. The TFC academy covers the costs for the kids to cover the financial part but their pool of players is not big enough to catch those diamonds. I am assuming leagues like EPL have almost all teams with academies that pay for lots of kids with potential to play. You can catch more with a bigger net. TFC's academy sample size is too small I think to ever produce more than the odd prospect and the other clubs/academies in Toronto will have the best of who can afford it only. If that doesn't change I think we will be relying on getting our talent elsewhere for years to come. Kids like my son who was doing very well will still continue to leave because there is no support to bring them up to a higher level. Hope we can truly rely on our academy one day.
    The financials is still a huge hurdle for player development and it is hard to see how it will drastically change which is required. As you say, TFC can offer free play but that is a very limited reach of players. There are definitely loads of guys talented enough, especially in the Peel region, to have gone pro. I fully believe if half these kids were growing up in England or elsewhere in Europe they'd be making it pro. Similarly like your son, my brothers and I played for some top rep clubs in Brampton but shit is just too expensive and my family had 4 boys doing it not just 1. When you consider my brother walked into a semi-pro side in England and had various non-league clubs scouting him when he was there then you can only imagine what if he had a proper football development. He is a guy who spent probably 2-3 of his vital teenage development years taking the piss in house league because we couldn't afford the rep fees and then a couple more playing shit beer league football in Toronto. If he was playing a proper level the whole time and actually developing then what could have happened? Would he have been a Premier League footballer? Slim chance, but could he have had a shot at League Two or Conference level leagues? No doubt in my mind he could have. I've got a colleague now who came through the Millwall academy and is in the 7th tier making 400 pound a week. Good money for a part-time job. Thing is, I've seen plenty more talented players in my time throughout the GTA who either aren't playing anymore or at best in L1O.

    I've grown up playing with/against or watching my brothers play with/against the likes of the Oso brothers, Larin, Nana Attakora, Quillan, Keven Aleman, Massimo Mirabelli etc. and the list extends on and on. Some made it and some didn't. The one usual common theme of those who did make it or at least gave it a real go is that their entire families were devoted to them playing soccer and pretty much based their lives around it. Unfortunately, for most kids they aren't blessed with families that can afford that.

    Then in our time anyway you've additionally got to think about how you're spending a couple grand for a kid to play soccer and the coach is completely clueless. You can take a guy like Massimo Mirabelli who my brother played with for years and just look at the coaches he had for many of his years. Development for me mainly came from just playing against the best kids but that only leads to so possible improvement. Thousands of dollars to just have some kid's dad put the best players out there in a 442 and say get at it isn't exactly cutting edge training. The skill level of coaches from my experiences for the most part are atrocious and any of the good ones quickly give up after the rampant politics in clubs. Mind you this was all nearly 10 years ago now in the top rep clubs of Peel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langilleski View Post
    Bottom of this article has one source that says Bez is the next GM of Columbus.

    https://www.dispatch.com/sports/2018....co/IPGu3IiBIS
    If they take Bez off us while he's under contract I'd expect the Crew to compensate generously. Bez is a genius.

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    It's interesting. This is an outcome of the whole business of having separate GMs and Presidents of teams, which I have never understood.

    Bez may feel that while he has had the title, he has never been the actual GM. Face it he was Leiweke's capologist and kind of woke up one day as a bigger part of the picture. The head of the team was always Leiweke and then Manning. Plus Manning inherited him.

    So the Columbus job may in fact be a genuine promotion, if he gets true control, and may not require much compensation. Probably a first round super draft pick or something.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

 

 

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