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  1. #5191
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Co signed.

    They outsmarted themselves, got cocky because upgrading Johnson with Vazquez had worked so well.
    IIRC Beita had a clause to make a minimum of about $350,000 if they picked up his optiun, plus some guaranteed bonuses that would've pushed it into TAM range.

    Still should've done it. In this league he's a first-team fullback all day long.

    I have no doubt that a player of VDWs pedigree might've had tactical and motivational problems with how Vanney presents himsefl... because I have those and I'm not even a player, let alone one with his pedigree. Having said that, he did not put in the requisite effort last year. Vanney was right about that. He got beaten to the ball, was slow off the trigger, frequently lost his concentration. I'd say if we didn't have injuries in the back line we'd have had to move him to CB anyway because he was a liability out wide. But even in the middle h e had real coverage brain freezes, where he just played a guy too tight then lost track of him almost immediately.

    Won't be sorry to see him gone. I'm sure there's some team in the middle east that will pay him exorbitant sums to be a name.

  2. #5192
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    Quote Originally Posted by noimpactinmtl View Post
    They swung for the fences and struck out. Aketxe was a 22 year desperate for a chance to revive his career, Van der Wiel is a Dutch international fullback available on the cheap (compared to the likes of Lichtsteiner and Alves).

    They failed, not because of lack of ambition or throwing darts at the board. They failed because Aketxe couldn’t find his form and Van der Wiel is a cancer with a serious attitude problem that Vanney and Bradley couldn’t control.
    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Co signed.

    They outsmarted themselves, got cocky because upgrading Johnson with Vazquez had worked so well.

    That’s the problem with a lot of what happened last year. They got cocky. With Lots and lots of things. Including Sebas renewal. Hopefully rather more humble now.

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    I am tired of all this hindsight is 20/20 crap about beita. He was good. With the cap we couldn't afford to give him a raise. VdW was an upgrade. When we lost ALL of our CB's he was the only guy who could fill in. Our D was shitty enough with VdW and Bradley. Does anyone think that stuffing beita in there would have been better. For at least what 4/5 games our CB's were VdW and Bradley. Beita never played CB. Even though VdW was in the end poor, we would have been even worse off when we had no CB's, none, not one. Even Morrow was injured. Errrr this narrative is so poorly concieved.

    Yes beita was a better full back. But for most of the season, we didn't need just a fullback. Beita was good but not versatile enough to fill the holes our injuries left us. It still annoys me that Duane Rollins trots this horrid analysis out on soccer today over and over.

    Or, maybe every one thinks that old, unfit Jason Hernandez and Bradley with beita on the right and Morgan on the left would have won us games. With a center that soft you will not stop teams. Then when zavaleta gets healthy we would have had Hernandez and the nephew. Even with a stout RB that seems to be a crap CB pairing that would have gotten torn to shreds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post

    For TFC, there's not just the question of losing Beita; it's who they got for an $800k TAM salary. Looking around the league and around the world, there are much more impactful players than what we saw from vdW. Even more so with Aketxe, who was making $1.2 or $1.3 million on a TAM salary. (And we still don't know if TFC has to use their one-a-year buyout on Aketxe in 2019.) On the other hand, Vazquez, and many other players around MLS, are examples of TAM working well to bring in extra talent.

    So if we have to use the buyout on Aketxe, then we wouldn't be able to use it on VDW. In that case, VDW would have to stay on the roster in 2019, no? That is unless we can transfer him somewhere.

  5. #5195
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    Quote Originally Posted by spe18 View Post
    So if we have to use the buyout on Aketxe, then we wouldn't be able to use it on VDW. In that case, VDW would have to stay on the roster in 2019, no? That is unless we can transfer him somewhere.
    Yes I agree. But we don't know about the buyout for Aketxe, because no journalist has ever asked about this. I don't supposed it was asked at the supporters forum?

  6. #5196
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    Quote Originally Posted by bought with blo View Post
    I am tired of all this hindsight is 20/20 crap about beita. He was good. With the cap we couldn't afford to give him a raise. VdW was an upgrade. When we lost ALL of our CB's he was the only guy who could fill in. Our D was shitty enough with VdW and Bradley. Does anyone think that stuffing beita in there would have been better. For at least what 4/5 games our CB's were VdW and Bradley. Beita never played CB. Even though VdW was in the end poor, we would have been even worse off when we had no CB's, none, not one. Even Morrow was injured. Errrr this narrative is so poorly concieved.

    Yes beita was a better full back. But for most of the season, we didn't need just a fullback. Beita was good but not versatile enough to fill the holes our injuries left us. It still annoys me that Duane Rollins trots this horrid analysis out on soccer today over and over.

    Or, maybe every one thinks that old, unfit Jason Hernandez and Bradley with beita on the right and Morgan on the left would have won us games. With a center that soft you will not stop teams. Then when zavaleta gets healthy we would have had Hernandez and the nephew. Even with a stout RB that seems to be a crap CB pairing that would have gotten torn to shreds.
    I think you're confusing what people are stating here. Nobody is suggesting Beitashour would have saved the 2018 season or would have made a better 5th choice CB.

    The point is: he's cheaper, management's assertions about "not being able to fit him under the cap" could easily be BS, and the replacement was a bust. We are still paying VDW's salary today. This stuff isn't past tense, it's still impacting us now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I think you're confusing what people are stating here. Nobody is suggesting Beitashour would have saved the 2018 season or would have made a better 5th choice CB.

    The point is: he's cheaper, management's assertions about "not being able to fit him under the cap" could easily be BS, and the replacement was a bust. We are still paying VDW's salary today. This stuff isn't past tense, it's still impacting us now.
    So the belief is that Bez lied. The cap makes teams do things they otherwise wouldn't want to do. At the time decisions had to be made. We made one. The decision is non-binary. Keeping beita would have cost us something else. We don't know what that would have been. Without sitting at the budget meeting we can't know what the repercussions of keeping beita would have been. Calling it a mistake now feels like pandering. Many people felt that VdW was an upgrade. Making this decision was generally felt to be right.
    The fact that it went wrong, or that we got the wrong upgrade do not make the decision bad. Its just revisionist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bought with blo View Post
    So the belief is that Bez lied. The cap makes teams do things they otherwise wouldn't want to do. At the time decisions had to be made. We made one. The decision is non-binary. Keeping beita would have cost us something else. We don't know what that would have been. Without sitting at the budget meeting we can't know what the repercussions of keeping beita would have been. Calling it a mistake now feels like pandering. Many people felt that VdW was an upgrade. Making this decision was generally felt to be right.
    The fact that it went wrong, or that we got the wrong upgrade do not make the decision bad. Its just revisionist.
    There's no public disclosure of what the actual rules are, hence the speculation. And as far as management's honesty goes: we still have no true idea what Aketxe is costing us and the recent Giovinco saga wasn't exactly squeaky clean.

    VDW had a checkered history prior to being here and it was an ill conceived idea. Anybody with their head on straight would have called it a risky move up front and a confirmed failure after the fact. Trying to call it a move that "generally felt to be right" at the time? Now that's revisionist or simply ignorant of the facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bought with blo View Post
    So the belief is that Bez lied. The cap makes teams do things they otherwise wouldn't want to do. At the time decisions had to be made. We made one. The decision is non-binary. Keeping beita would have cost us something else. We don't know what that would have been. Without sitting at the budget meeting we can't know what the repercussions of keeping beita would have been. Calling it a mistake now feels like pandering. Many people felt that VdW was an upgrade. Making this decision was generally felt to be right.
    The fact that it went wrong, or that we got the wrong upgrade do not make the decision bad. Its just revisionist.
    How else can you judge a decision if not by it going bad?

  10. #5200
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    I can't remember a signing by Bez that didn't feel right based on what people heard & had seen of a player. Even a few weeks ago with Ciman, was there anybody questioning it beyond 'well its not long term for sure'?

    Everything has to be judged on results.

    *******

    So, Poz tomorrow afternoon announcement?

  11. #5201
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    There's no public disclosure of what the actual rules are, hence the speculation. And as far as management's honesty goes: we still have no true idea what Aketxe is costing us and the recent Giovinco saga wasn't exactly squeaky clean.

    VDW had a checkered history prior to being here and it was an ill conceived idea. Anybody with their head on straight would have called it a risky move up front and a confirmed failure after the fact. Trying to call it a move that "generally felt to be right" at the time? Now that's revisionist or simply ignorant of the facts.
    I read a lot of articles and forums, and I did not feel at the time that the overwhelming feeling re VdW was a bad one. I rather thought most people felt it was an upgrade. At the time it was felt to be good. He provided unexpected value at a position of need. It turned out that given our horror show of a season that he wasn't a fit. We cannot know counter factually if he could have worked out differently with us having less injuries and more success. In the method chosen of deciding which decisions are good and which are bad, we only need to see the outcome. This means the person looking back is always right, it gives no chance of a person with a lesa than 100% accuracy of being seen as a good decision maker. Aketxe and VdW seemed to be good bets at the time. The fact that both failed does not make them bad bets, it simply makes them loosing ones. Not all losing bets are bad bets.
    Even in poker with all the right choices there is still a chance the person with the lower odds wins.
    Both aketxe and VdW seemed to be viewed as good bets at the time. Even VdW was not a complete bust.
    Regarding aketxe and the buyout. The language used on MLS soccer was mutual termination of contract. Same as Whitecaps with Juarez. They still got to buyout de Jong. It seems likely we still have our buyout.

  12. #5202
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    I was one of those who was OK with the vdW decision. He seemed to be an upgrade.

    In hindsight I was influenced by the story. PSG. Serie A. He'd brawled with Ibra, but didn’t that make him better? The guy had started a World Cup final, and was still youngish.

    Hard to resist. But a mistake all the same.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Transfersoap Monday. Prepare the white smoke.

    TFC bumped the bid up to close this.


    http://www.voetbalnieuws.be/news/387...ijke-toegeving

    There seems to be an end to the transfer juice around Alejandro Pozuelo. KRC Genk put the negotiations with Toronto FC on hold for the past few days, but on Monday it could already be a breakthrough. And it looks like the club will let him go anyway.

    In the first instance Racing nevertheless stood by and did not speak of a departure. But TD Dimitri De Condé showed on Sunday that the club does not want a legal fight, moreover everyone benefits from clarity in full title battle. On top of that Toronto refuses to give up the playmaker just like that. For example, Het Laatste Nieuws writes that the MLS club has now increased its bid to above the contractually determined lump sum payment of 8 million euros.

    Genk seemed to be trying to keep Pozuelo in early May, if not mid-March. But according to Het Nieuwsblad, this is no longer a priority. "Because the situation is weighing more and more heavily on the changing room, there is a real chance that Genk will still go for an offer from the MLS club for an immediate transfer", it sounds.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  14. #5204
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    If it takes a little more to secure getting the right guy-right now, so be it. I just hope he is the real deal.

  15. #5205
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    Transfer juice, oh that's another good one!

  16. #5206
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    Quote Originally Posted by bought with blo View Post
    I am tired of all this hindsight is 20/20 crap about beita. He was good. With the cap we couldn't afford to give him a raise. VdW was an upgrade. When we lost ALL of our CB's he was the only guy who could fill in. Our D was shitty enough with VdW and Bradley. Does anyone think that stuffing beita in there would have been better. For at least what 4/5 games our CB's were VdW and Bradley. Beita never played CB. Even though VdW was in the end poor, we would have been even worse off when we had no CB's, none, not one. Even Morrow was injured. Errrr this narrative is so poorly concieved.

    Yes beita was a better full back. But for most of the season, we didn't need just a fullback. Beita was good but not versatile enough to fill the holes our injuries left us. It still annoys me that Duane Rollins trots this horrid analysis out on soccer today over and over.

    Or, maybe every one thinks that old, unfit Jason Hernandez and Bradley with beita on the right and Morgan on the left would have won us games. With a center that soft you will not stop teams. Then when zavaleta gets healthy we would have had Hernandez and the nephew. Even with a stout RB that seems to be a crap CB pairing that would have gotten torn to shreds.
    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I was one of those who was OK with the vdW decision. He seemed to be an upgrade.

    In hindsight I was influenced by the story. PSG. Serie A. He'd brawled with Ibra, but didn’t that make him better? The guy had started a World Cup final, and was still youngish.

    Hard to resist. But a mistake all the same.
    Me too... thought the 3 TAM players were a statement of ambition and intent. They to varying degrees failed as upgrades. It happens... sometime you sign players who technically / on paper should improve your team ..then they go and eff up the chemistry of the team. Beita was in that category - I thought he was the least technically gifted player in the starting 11...but he made up for it in spades with industry and heart. The other players responded to that and he added to the teams spirit. VdW and Aketexe drained that spirit. Add in a brutal series of injuries and the season was toast. Time to get over it. It is time to look forward and figure out ways to regain the spirit and the industry that made us the best team in North America (minus penalties). Shit..we won a tie in Azteca stadium - that is a feat that very few team have ever done. 2018 was hardly a disaster - it provided some seriously great and memorable football. We could be cursed by an ownership and management team that totally lacks ambition - like Vancouver or Montreal. It is time to move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    IIRC Beita had a clause to make a minimum of about $350,000 if they picked up his optiun, plus some guaranteed bonuses that would've pushed it into TAM range.

    Still should've done it. In this league he's a first-team fullback all day long.

    I have no doubt that a player of VDWs pedigree might've had tactical and motivational problems with how Vanney presents himsefl... because I have those and I'm not even a player, let alone one with his pedigree. Having said that, he did not put in the requisite effort last year. Vanney was right about that. He got beaten to the ball, was slow off the trigger, frequently lost his concentration. I'd say if we didn't have injuries in the back line we'd have had to move him to CB anyway because he was a liability out wide. But even in the middle h e had real coverage brain freezes, where he just played a guy too tight then lost track of him almost immediately.

    Won't be sorry to see him gone. I'm sure there's some team in the middle east that will pay him exorbitant sums to be a name.
    This is correct, hence the tweet. Time and again the league has denied TAM for domestics but is now, under some circumstances, allowing it. The Beita move wasn’t a cap issue; it was a no TAM for domestics move (Parker, Frei, etc.). Vazquez was also a DP playing as TAM because he wanted out of Mexico; he would have commanded a DP salary in any other arrangement.

    TAM being meant exclusively for foreign signings is bunk. Letting the league decide who you can pursue and for how much is idiotic, and the reason you get retirement home signings so they can say Gerrard played in MLS. Add to that MLS taking liberties with how salaries are actually paid: Ibra wasn’t at LAG for less than a DP salary regardless of if he was paid less on the books. No way that deal happens without him getting paid.

    I wasn’t sad Beita left because I figured VdW would do well here, given MLS defenses are generally fairly poor and he’s a decent player if he wants to be. Figured poor spells in Turkey and Italy would have him wanting to save his legacy as a footballer. Nope, guess not. Don’t blame Giovinco for leaving either. However, I’m almost certain that the lack of transparency and details surrounding all of this are related to factors MLSE can’t really control because they’re league-related. It’s not like a Raptors conspiracy theory because we’ve seen the league meddling with this sort of thing previously.
    Last edited by stegosaurus; 02-25-2019 at 02:37 AM.

  18. #5208
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    This Beita stuff needs to stop. The guy was not and is still not worth TAM money. Morrow isn't even on TAM and he was absolutely ripping the league to shreds as a left back that year. Maybe VDW wasn't the right move but trying to upgrade Beita was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    This Beita stuff needs to stop. The guy was not and is still not worth TAM money. Morrow isn't even on TAM and he was absolutely ripping the league to shreds as a left back that year. Maybe VDW wasn't the right move but trying to upgrade Beita was.
    I think you’re misinterpreting, like another user above was. The intent isn’t that Beita would have saved us from last season or that we should have kept him vs finding someone better. Rather, it was to indicate that the league meddles directly with transfers and contracts and that teams need to comply with external policies that may have influenced some of the transfers and contracts here in negative ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    I think you’re misinterpreting, like another user above was. The intent isn’t that Beita would have saved us from last season or that we should have kept him vs finding someone better. Rather, it was to indicate that the league meddles directly with transfers and contracts and that teams need to comply with external policies that may have influenced some of the transfers and contracts here in negative ways.
    Sure, but my point is that I don't think that Beita was one of those times. There was no way he was being offered a TAM contract.

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    Quote Originally Posted by portu View Post
    Sure, but my point is that I don't think that Beita was one of those times. There was no way he was being offered a TAM contract.
    If Beita didn’t fit under the cap how could another player?

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    So anyway, I highly doubtful Poz will play in the 2nd leg, but he should be good for Philly.
    Last edited by James17930; 02-25-2019 at 04:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Transfersoap Monday. Prepare the white smoke.
    The lingo has had me rolling, these past days.

    You know what they say about going through difficult times: if you don't laugh, you'll cry.

    Just wanted to thank you for being a character, though it all!



    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Transfer juice, oh that's another good one!
    Auf jeden Fall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
    If Beita didn’t fit under the cap how could another player?
    Because when a player is TAM you buy them down, essentially putting their cap hit at 150k.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bought with blo View Post
    So the belief is that Bez lied. The cap makes teams do things they otherwise wouldn't want to do. At the time decisions had to be made. We made one. The decision is non-binary. Keeping beita would have cost us something else. We don't know what that would have been. Without sitting at the budget meeting we can't know what the repercussions of keeping beita would have been. Calling it a mistake now feels like pandering. Many people felt that VdW was an upgrade. Making this decision was generally felt to be right.
    The fact that it went wrong, or that we got the wrong upgrade do not make the decision bad. Its just revisionist.
    There was lots of discussion in these boards last year to the effect that letting Beita go was a mistake, and was disloyal because he nearly died for the club. So it isn’t revisionist.

    I will grant you that VdW was more versatile than Beita. But we got him to play RB and Beita is and was better for this league and this team

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealG-TFC View Post
    If it takes a little more to secure getting the right guy-right now, so be it. I just hope he is the real deal.
    I've streamed a lot of Belgian League (Jupiler Pro League) games watching Jonathan David and Poz and top to bottom, it's a better league than MLS.

    Hope Poz transitions well to MLS but he's basically a younger, more dynamic version of VV's in his champion year with TFC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowcrash View Post
    I've streamed a lot of Belgian League (Jupiler Pro League) games watching Jonathan David and Poz and top to bottom, it's a better league than MLS.

    Hope Poz transitions well to MLS but he's basically a younger, more dynamic version of VV's in his champion year with TFC.
    You say “but”. Shouldn’t it be “and?” This sounds like a good thing.

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    Has TFC announced a press conference for today?

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    As per normal rules, I don't believe anything is done until he puts on the damn shirt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    So anyway, I highly doubtful Poz will play in the 2nd leg, but he should be good for Philly.
    ITCs and all that jazz can take days, plus he needs his work visa sorted to travel to the US... I think Saturday is kinda doubtful actually.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

 

 

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